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Post by wildv on Jan 22, 2024 15:30:57 GMT
I don't know why we're questioning this? First comment about the sword already confirmed it's 100% a fake. I'm sure we've all been duped before at some point with swords, it's part of the learning process. For me, it's less about questioning it and more about delivery. Not all responses explained that this is not a Nihonto in a polite way, which is how I remember SBG being as a community when I first joined it. It is more kind to list the reasons for concern than just tell someone they have been "duped". Fortunately for the OP, it sounds like this piece was found, not bought, so no money lost. That's a good thing. My mistake! Pretty new to the forums, well the last 6 months anyway. People in my real world circle are used to just agreeing with me on anything sword related. I've been doing this for 40+ years. A good point that how would anyone online know that? I'm still getting used to this online world if I'm being honest.
EDIT: As I re-read what you wrote, I did list reasons before the duped comment but was ignored. I guess I need to check that ego! It doesn't affect my life in the slightest if this is a genuine nihonto or not.
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Post by mrstabby on Jan 22, 2024 16:00:32 GMT
Being more detailed also helps others who might just be looking through to become more proficient in spotting fakes.
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Post by larason2 on Jan 22, 2024 16:25:22 GMT
Part of what caused me to doubt is the 14k gold menuki. They're not well cast, but you just don't see that every day.
I agree with Tera. I think it's better to list the reasons, then the OP learns a bit about the process. Also, like any assessment, our opinion is subject to error. Commenting on the exact details helps all of us to refine our eye. There were some details that initially caused me to doubt. The process of continuing to examine them helped put those doubts to rest.
On the Nihonto Message Board, they have mentioned times when they thought a sword was gimei, the offending signature was removed, but then the sword papers to the exact smith whose signature was removed. It's also happened that NBTHK issues papers (or refuses to issue papers!), but then the sword is repolished, and they change their opinion. It's part of the process, though studies have shown that discussion and back and forth regarding an assessment is less likely to result in error, as it helps to prevent bias. That being said, the reason I no longer frequent the NMB is I feel they are excessively unkind.
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Post by mrstabby on Jan 22, 2024 16:43:57 GMT
I am interested what test was used to test the gold.
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Post by retrotorevolution on Jan 23, 2024 0:32:46 GMT
I am interested what test was used to test the gold. regular gold acid test...
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Post by mrstabby on Jan 23, 2024 9:02:00 GMT
I ask, because there are some alloys that can fake it with acid, although I have no idea how old the sword is. If these are like 10g each they alone would be worth like 600€/$ in gold right now. Although gold was 8 times cheaper 20 years ago, could have been worth it back then to melt some cheap jewelry and cast these menuki.
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Post by wildv on Jan 23, 2024 10:54:36 GMT
I ask, because there are some alloys that can fake it with acid, although I have no idea how old the sword is. If these are like 10g each they alone would be worth like 600€/$ in gold right now. Although gold was 8 times cheaper 20 years ago, could have been worth it back then to melt some cheap jewelry and cast these menuki. Not that it matters here at all but X-ray fluorescence is industry standard for precious metal testing. A bullion dealer would never accept an acid test. Just saying.
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Post by shinobigatana on Jan 23, 2024 20:40:17 GMT
Not that it matters here at all but X-ray fluorescence is industry standard for precious metal testing. A bullion dealer would never accept an acid test. Just saying. I wouldn't say it's the industry standard since most jewelers have yet to invest the 30K to purchase a quality xrf. In fact often times for an xrf to be accurate the piece has to be treated much like you would treat something for acid testing. The advantage to xrf is that it will list ALL metal content by name and percentage. The industry standard has always been the acid test and it can be quite accurate when done CORRECTLY. I have carefully looked at this item and I can say there is NO way of PROPERLY testing these menuki without running the risk of damaging the ito or the same. The only way to properly test these would be to remove them from the tsuka. That said, ask a jeweler, any real jeweler and they will tell you gold, no matter the karat has a "look" and a "feel" to it. I have shipwreck coins from the 1715 Fleet in gold and silver. For 250 years they sat in the salty waters off the florida east coast. The silver ones came up from the bottom black as tar. The gold ones came up brilliant as can be. The only way to tell they ever sat on the ocean floor was white coral had started to grow on them. One of the beautiful things about gold is that it doesn't oxidize unless its a low karat AND has been exposed to some type of chemical. Sometimes this can be softened water or cheap jewelry cleaning solutions. When I look at these menuki, I dont see anything that points to these being actually gold. However, if you want to know with 100% certainty, without removing them, as wildv said, the xrf is the best option. Finding someone with an xrf that is will to scan for free is another thing all together. On to the blade, as someone who owns both nihonto and modern made custom blades, there is nothing I see that would point to this being nihonto. The shape is wrong, the hada is wrong, the habaki is wrong, the mei is wrong etc..... All that said, the ONLY way to know for sure, is to put this in the HANDS of someone who is familiar with nihonto and have it evaluated in person. Pictures are just pictures and as such, 100% assurity, here on a forum, you will not find.
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Post by retrotorevolution on Jan 24, 2024 0:48:47 GMT
I ask, because there are some alloys that can fake it with acid, although I have no idea how old the sword is. If these are like 10g each they alone would be worth like 600€/$ in gold right now. Although gold was 8 times cheaper 20 years ago, could have been worth it back then to melt some cheap jewelry and cast these menuki. Not that it matters here at all but X-ray fluorescence is industry standard for precious metal testing. A bullion dealer would never accept an acid test. Just saying. its 4 grams of gold total...
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Post by mrstabby on Jan 24, 2024 6:44:06 GMT
Not that it matters here at all but X-ray fluorescence is industry standard for precious metal testing. A bullion dealer would never accept an acid test. Just saying. its 4 grams of gold total... Ok, they look bigger, sorry. Based it of the weight of some other menuki.
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