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Post by izzy on Apr 9, 2024 19:55:33 GMT
JoeX broke a Hultafors in SK5 as well, another survived, as howler said too much inaccuracies to really put everything on his results. And the CS SK5 is run harder than my Hultafors, there is that. I doubt it's the steel, it's just hard. And some processes, like using an electric arc to vaporize the sample (which I believe was done) is extremely easy to contaminate. Again, I would not hang too much weight on any of these results. Also it's one result, nobody should ever form an opinion on one result of any measurement.
I am 99% sure it's the heat treat not the steel. To clarify I do not rely on JoeX to give me the most unbreakable knife ever, etc. We are in agreement it not scientific to take on sample from one batch and extend it to all examples of the Model or Make, or even every blade in that batch; Further his tests are not consistent in terms of ABUSE from blade to blade. At best we can draw rough conclusions what a blade MIGHT take. It's fun to watch, but factory goods of the same make and model are not all created exactly equal.
In certain cases like the Becker Bk-9 the evidence is out there, plenty of other reports over the years of breakage, same with Ka-bar style stick tang blades ( inc. Ontario/ Camillus, etc.), Ontario 1095 Machetes are another one, as were the Condor 420HC Machetes. ( I own both Camillus ( NY) and Condor models of that type, I use but don't abuse). Is breakage usually because of either abuse or over hardening...YES!
I see what your saying about Arc testing, but until more people post more results it's the only thing we have to go on, except the labels...I'm calling "cheap steel" on an inexpensive product.
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Post by howler on Apr 9, 2024 20:06:43 GMT
JoeX broke a Hultafors in SK5 as well, another survived, as howler said too much inaccuracies to really put everything on his results. And the CS SK5 is run harder than my Hultafors, there is that. I doubt it's the steel, it's just hard. And some processes, like using an electric arc to vaporize the sample (which I believe was done) is extremely easy to contaminate. Again, I would not hang too much weight on any of these results. Also it's one result, nobody should ever form an opinion on one result of any measurement.
I am 99% sure it's the heat treat not the steel. Just by using the "grain of salt" principle when watching a JoeX vid, one can both enjoy the content while learning a thing or two, but only by filtering out the inaccuracies you mentioned. Those "inaccuracies" include the killing of some pretty good knives like Tops, for instance, who use differential hardening (heat treatment). As an example, many a Tops blade kick arse in testing until he flips the blade over and hits the back spine against a corner of the brick or metal bar which mushrooms the softer back edge and changes the structural integrity of the blade...kaboom! No chance those blades would ever be put to that use. No Earthly reason not to buy a Mora Robust, great cutter, tough & cheap as all Hell.
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Post by howler on Apr 9, 2024 20:43:57 GMT
JoeX broke a Hultafors in SK5 as well, another survived, as howler said too much inaccuracies to really put everything on his results. And the CS SK5 is run harder than my Hultafors, there is that. I doubt it's the steel, it's just hard. And some processes, like using an electric arc to vaporize the sample (which I believe was done) is extremely easy to contaminate. Again, I would not hang too much weight on any of these results. Also it's one result, nobody should ever form an opinion on one result of any measurement.
I am 99% sure it's the heat treat not the steel. To clarify I do not rely on JoeX to give me the most unbreakable knife ever, etc. We are in agreement it not scientific to take on sample from one batch and extend it to all examples of the Model or Make, or even every blade in that batch; Further his tests are not consistent in terms of ABUSE from blade to blade. At best we can draw rough conclusions what a blade MIGHT take. It's fun to watch, but factory goods of the same make and model are not all created exactly equal.
In certain cases like the Becker Bk-9 the evidence is out there, plenty of other reports over the years of breakage, same with Ka-bar style stick tang blades ( inc. Ontario/ Camillus, etc.), Ontario 1095 Machetes are another one, as were the Condor 420HC Machetes. ( I own both Camillus ( NY) and Condor models of that type, I use but don't abuse). Is breakage usually because of either abuse or over hardening...YES!
I see what your saying about Arc testing, but until more people post more results it's the only thing we have to go on, except the labels...I'm calling "cheap steel" on an inexpensive product.
Yup, JoeX is good for entertainment, a few data points, some generalities, but it's a start, not a finish to durability/toughness questions. And JoeX does not get into use/function of the tool, so slicing, edge holding, hand/arm fatigue, etc...take a back seat to brute sharpened pry bar qualities. Btw, I love brutish sharpened pry bars. Becker Bk-9 is time proven great, but that's at a low $60 price point that I paid for mine...at $130 (for 1095 crovan, when you can get Tops/Esee)...not so much, as they (along with Condor) doubled the price these last several years.
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mrstabby
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Post by mrstabby on Apr 10, 2024 5:56:32 GMT
You can glean some good information from Joes videos, the Cold Steel WildWest Bowie for example is very soft, edge and tip folded over like clay with a few strikes, while the 1917 Frontier didn't. This is also what a few owners say, too soft. I also watch it hoping he breaks the grip, to see how it looks inside. He just wrecked a Muela Scorpion 260, and it has a weird grip construction with a tiny tang. I don't think he is that knowledgable in steel, that's why he does stuff to DH blades like hitting the spine, he just likes destruction (according to his own admission).
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Post by izzy on Apr 10, 2024 6:36:21 GMT
JoeX broke a Hultafors in SK5 as well, another survived, as howler said too much inaccuracies to really put everything on his results. And the CS SK5 is run harder than my Hultafors, there is that. I doubt it's the steel, it's just hard. And some processes, like using an electric arc to vaporize the sample (which I believe was done) is extremely easy to contaminate. Again, I would not hang too much weight on any of these results. Also it's one result, nobody should ever form an opinion on one result of any measurement.
I am 99% sure it's the heat treat not the steel. Just by using the "grain of salt" principle when watching a JoeX vid, one can both enjoy the content while learning a thing or two, but only by filtering out the inaccuracies you mentioned. Those "inaccuracies" include the killing of some pretty good knives like Tops, for instance, who use differential hardening (heat treatment). As an example, many a Tops blade kick arse in testing until he flips the blade over and hits the back spine against a corner of the brick or metal bar which mushrooms the softer back edge and changes the structural integrity of the blade...kaboom! No chance those blades would ever be put to that use. No Earthly reason not to buy a Mora Robust, great cutter, tough & cheap as all Hell.
Well said, and that goes for both of you Menchen. Just because sometimes I disagree a little, does not mean I don't agree a Lot with with what has been said.
I would also add there is no reason not to get the HD Companion in stainless, it just has more Leverage to bend it with ( that is if your going to stick it in a tree stump and try to break/ bend it it Like Joe. ) Some knives need a little extra care due to construction ( stick Tang) or the maker known to have Heat treat that could have wide variances...Like what I said in another post about Becker and Ka Bar Style Knives...
For the Ka Bar brand / Becker Battoning is not supposed to be "Under Warranty" in terms of Battoning, I'm honestly not sure which maker does cover Battoning...I always thought we did this sort of stuff at our own risk...for me Battoning is when you don't have proper tools like a Hatchet or Machete, and just have to survive...basically a last ditch survival method. Although some may wish to test their tools before relying on it of course....so...
To me it just screams, "Hey bud carry two blades", or better get a stout machete if your gonna walk in the woods with a loin cloth....Just checking my camping bag....wait a min...got 3 blades ( two of them small Moras you don't feel in the pack) in the and the bag is need filling up. If I'm Going to Batton wood it would be that aforementioned Chinese Chef Knife in 4C13 ( also in the pack), but that is "on me" if causes damage.
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Post by mrstabby on Apr 10, 2024 7:41:49 GMT
I found I like the carbon version of the Moras better, the edge is a bit more stable for my cutting tasks. Of course it breaks because it's quite hard, but it takes a lot of force which probably never will happen, add to this that shorter blades are harder to break, it likely will only break if you have it as a goal to break it. I wonder under what real world conditions the SRK or Recon Tanto fail, I doubt it's something a knife is designed for to be honest. It's not a prybar nor should you try to cut stone. The "broken" SRK Bloodloss is referencing on page 2 lost 5mm of the tip while prying, nothing that ends the knife completely. And gideonstactical himself mentions the SK5 is hardened for max edge retention making it hard and more brittle. The other broken SRK I have heard of were thrown and lost the grip, which is also understandable. A missed throw, hitting something sideways along the grip will end almost any knife that isn't designed for it. Know the limits of your tools. I find Joe-X and destructive tests in general like Matthew Jensen does very helpful in that regard.
I have heard some maker actually does warranty batoning damage for a lifetime, can't remember who though (I think Joe-X mentioned it on some bigger bushknife). I agree, batoning should be a last ditch move (where likely 5 people in the entire world are in a situation that warrants this a year, even then there are alternatives to batoning). It's like hitting a tree with a sword, very hard abuse for the design, a torture test. Of course there are knives designed for batoning, but those are worse at everything else a knife should do.... "A tool that does everything does nothing well." Also only because you have batoned with a knife 99 times before does not mean it won't fail at the 100th, I'd be wary of doing this if I were in a real survival situation with only a knife. If it breaks, well, I just lost my only tool. I think a small knife and a machete (something abusable) would be minimum for a real lost-in-the-woods situation. But then why not carry a small axe of the same weight...Tool for the job, also taking down a tree with an axe is a lot faster and esier than with a saw for example. I do like bigger blades, but for many daily knife-tasks a big blade is just overcomplicating things. The 10cm blade on the Mora seems to be perfect for most things you would want to do with a knife.
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Post by izzy on Apr 10, 2024 12:51:28 GMT
I found I like the carbon version of the Moras better, the edge is a bit more stable for my cutting tasks. Of course it breaks because it's quite hard, but it takes a lot of force which probably never will happen, add to this that shorter blades are harder to break, it likely will only break if you have it as a goal to break it. I wonder under what real world conditions the SRK or Recon Tanto fail, I doubt it's something a knife is designed for to be honest. It's not a prybar nor should you try to cut stone. The "broken" SRK Bloodloss is referencing on page 2 lost 5mm of the tip while prying, nothing that ends the knife completely. And gideonstactical himself mentions the SK5 is hardened for max edge retention making it hard and more brittle. The other broken SRK I have heard of were thrown and lost the grip, which is also understandable. A missed throw, hitting something sideways along the grip will end almost any knife that isn't designed for it. Know the limits of your tools. I find Joe-X and destructive tests in general like Matthew Jensen does very helpful in that regard.
I have heard some maker actually does warranty batoning damage for a lifetime, can't remember who though (I think Joe-X mentioned it on some bigger bushknife). I agree, batoning should be a last ditch move (where likely 5 people in the entire world are in a situation that warrants this a year, even then there are alternatives to batoning). It's like hitting a tree with a sword, very hard abuse for the design, a torture test. Of course there are knives designed for batoning, but those are worse at everything else a knife should do.... "A tool that does everything does nothing well." Also only because you have batoned with a knife 99 times before does not mean it won't fail at the 100th, I'd be wary of doing this if I were in a real survival situation with only a knife. If it breaks, well, I just lost my only tool. I think a small knife and a machete (something abusable) would be minimum for a real lost-in-the-woods situation. But then why not carry a small axe of the same weight...Tool for the job, also taking down a tree with an axe is a lot faster and esier than with a saw for example. I do like bigger blades, but for many daily knife-tasks a big blade is just overcomplicating things. The 10cm blade on the Mora seems to be perfect for most things you would want to do with a knife. Indeed the Carbon Mora's are a few Rockwell Higher in theory 58-60 HRC. I enjoy mine, an older HD that has seen good use and holds a good edge. AFAIK they currently use C100 steel, but used C20 in the past ( or so I read on the net), either are decent clean steels.
Agreed on the Machete /Knife pairing, lighter than an axe combined, and a good machete can do almost as well as a Hatchet on wood.
Just to be fair to Becker here is a thread on Mora's breaking, usually the thinner ones, and more often than not with Battoning...the thread picks up from page 2:
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Post by mrstabby on Apr 10, 2024 13:37:08 GMT
The older Moras (like 10 years+, the ones with the grey TPU grip like in the video) are thinner and less wide than new ones. 17,5mm wide-1,95mm thick vs 19,8mm wide-2,5mm thick making the newer line much tougher, not even speaking of the HDs with 3,2mm thickness. The thickness change likely was because they were breaking, it's interesting they changed to thinner stock because the old-old Moras (like 25 years) were 2,5mm. Compared to the Hultafors SK5 with its lower carbon content I don't feel any difference in the edge, likely because they are almost the same hardness (can't scratch each other). Maybe, but just MAYBE the Moras edge is harder to fold over in hard wood.
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Post by wildv on Apr 10, 2024 14:02:37 GMT
How do I unsubscribe from "Participated" notifications? Moderators? I keep getting notifications for this thread and I wish to opt out please.
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Post by mrstabby on Apr 10, 2024 14:11:39 GMT
How do I unsubscribe from "Participated" notifications? Moderators? I keep getting notifications for this thread and I wish to opt out please. I think you can't you have to not answer for a while. I think like a few months.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Apr 10, 2024 16:00:43 GMT
Profile - Edit Profile - Notifications ?
Dunno if this is the solution for your problem, cause I have Participated activated and never get this notification afaik.
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Post by howler on Apr 10, 2024 16:40:59 GMT
I found I like the carbon version of the Moras better, the edge is a bit more stable for my cutting tasks. Of course it breaks because it's quite hard, but it takes a lot of force which probably never will happen, add to this that shorter blades are harder to break, it likely will only break if you have it as a goal to break it. I wonder under what real world conditions the SRK or Recon Tanto fail, I doubt it's something a knife is designed for to be honest. It's not a prybar nor should you try to cut stone. The "broken" SRK Bloodloss is referencing on page 2 lost 5mm of the tip while prying, nothing that ends the knife completely. And gideonstactical himself mentions the SK5 is hardened for max edge retention making it hard and more brittle. The other broken SRK I have heard of were thrown and lost the grip, which is also understandable. A missed throw, hitting something sideways along the grip will end almost any knife that isn't designed for it. Know the limits of your tools. I find Joe-X and destructive tests in general like Matthew Jensen does very helpful in that regard.
I have heard some maker actually does warranty batoning damage for a lifetime, can't remember who though (I think Joe-X mentioned it on some bigger bushknife). I agree, batoning should be a last ditch move (where likely 5 people in the entire world are in a situation that warrants this a year, even then there are alternatives to batoning). It's like hitting a tree with a sword, very hard abuse for the design, a torture test. Of course there are knives designed for batoning, but those are worse at everything else a knife should do.... "A tool that does everything does nothing well." Also only because you have batoned with a knife 99 times before does not mean it won't fail at the 100th, I'd be wary of doing this if I were in a real survival situation with only a knife. If it breaks, well, I just lost my only tool. I think a small knife and a machete (something abusable) would be minimum for a real lost-in-the-woods situation. But then why not carry a small axe of the same weight...Tool for the job, also taking down a tree with an axe is a lot faster and esier than with a saw for example. I do like bigger blades, but for many daily knife-tasks a big blade is just overcomplicating things. The 10cm blade on the Mora seems to be perfect for most things you would want to do with a knife. Another thing to note on the whole batoning deal is some people have no idea what the heck they are doing. I've seen countless vids of morons attempting to split tough knot filled, wavy grained 10" diameter LOGS in the center with 10" blades! SMASH SMASH SMASH...they hit the exposed handle with a heavy branch, rock, even (gulp) hammer. That ain't batoning, that's mindless abuse. You can baton with a mora for Heavens sake, because it's all about technique, choosing appropriate (finger, wrist, forearm) sized, shaped wood to split. With bigger diameter logs and small blades you chunk around the edges AS APPROPRIATE. Common sense rears its head yet again. Splitting huge logs in half with knives gets one a Darwin award in my book.
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Post by mrstabby on Apr 10, 2024 17:20:18 GMT
Wait, wait, wait, you can baton on smaller than leg sized logs? You have a point, I have seen sooooo many videos of people splitting logs with a Mora where the tip barely comes out the other side. Just realized how stupid that is in actuality. But I guess you won't need to baton full force with a 10lbs club through a thinner branch, leaning on the knife would likely be enough many times, doesn't make for good video.
I wonder how many youtube-learned "survivalists" would die within a week if you put them in a forest alone because they never see how it should be done.
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Post by izzy on Apr 10, 2024 18:11:15 GMT
The older Moras (like 10 years+, the ones with the grey TPU grip like in the video) are thinner and less wide than new ones. 17,5mm wide-1,95mm thick vs 19,8mm wide-2,5mm thick making the newer line much tougher, not even speaking of the HDs with 3,2mm thickness. The thickness change likely was because they were breaking, it's interesting they changed to thinner stock because the old-old Moras (like 25 years) were 2,5mm. Compared to the Hultafors SK5 with its lower carbon content I don't feel any difference in the edge, likely because they are almost the same hardness (can't scratch each other). Maybe, but just MAYBE the Moras edge is harder to fold over in hard wood. The Companion yes, but not the Basic...that is supposed to be a touch over to 2mm...at least that is what the ragweed forge store says...
I measured my old Laminated Frost and it was 2.43mm, a Regular Mora Companion bought in 2022 was actually thicker at about 2.54 mm....SO the Newer Mora Companion is a Tiny but thicker than my older Frosts.....
Many years ago I dropped a Marttiini Puukko on reconstituted stone Tile...and the tip bent badly...shame as it was an expensive one with a nice bronze end cap, bought it from "knifeshop" ( can't remember the exact spelling) in Austria if memory serves correct....don't have it any more as it was stolen along with a lot of other stuff. But it was likely a bit soft in any case. Looking at the RagweedForge Store it seems they currently run 53-54 HRC... to me that is ONE brand to avoid IMHO.
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