mrstabby
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Post by mrstabby on Jan 16, 2024 21:36:20 GMT
I know there are a few short swords in D2 around. Specifically United Cutlery has some.
Does anyone have one of those? Like the Honshu D2 Gladius for example? I just want to know how they hold up. D2 seems to become sharper and hold an edge longer than many other carbon and stainless steels, but due to the large carbides tends to be chippy in very hard knives. So how do the D2 daggers/short swords stack up to their carbon steel counter parts? Are they worth the price?
I am quite unsure about D2 in longer blades, since some say it is very tough and others say it chips and breaks easily (totally not because I just broke a D2 knife, although it was tempered quite hard). As I mentioned I am not only looking for general info, but also specifically the UC blades.
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Post by wildv on Jan 16, 2024 23:30:00 GMT
I personally would avoid D2 in longer stuff. I've had extensive experience working with D2 and I'm not a huge fan of it personally. Yes, it does hold a razor edge for a really long time, yes, it can come across as brittle however the force it takes to chip if tempered correctly is a crazy amount of force -- most a normal person couldn't exert. BUT they are a nightmare to reshape, sharpen or work with once dull, and like you said can chip. Using common sense and what I know about D2, the way a sword works mostly is velocity, edge alignment, etc. Where a knife is more brute force for tasks. Because of this I could safely assume a D2 sword chipping pretty easily if you we out of alignment or hit something hard (even bamboo I could see chipping a D2 sword). I'm always skeptical of tool steels in swords simply because of the intended purpose of the steel. I much prefer the "softer" carbon steels in swords as I always have been taught bending is better than chipping.
TLDR; I would avoid D2 in swords and personally don't like it in knives either (because then I have to sharpen the bi*ch of the stuff). I have worked with D2 steel a LOT in my past.It is a very niche steel in my opinion, perfect for what it was designed for, not so great for anything else.
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Post by mrstabby on Jan 17, 2024 14:47:37 GMT
Yeah, my thoughts exactly. I just wish there was a destructive review of a D2 sword so I could see how much it can take, if it is any better than carbon steel under impact loads or if it chipps. I have only seen one D2 sword review, it's a low cost ebay sword and does not show if there was edge damage. It did survive a couple of ice block chops although who knows if it really is D2. Just so weird that it has the reputation of being extremely tough but also brittle.
EDIT: I imagine it must be like with carbon where swords are 50-55HRC while knives are around 60HRC. So I don't think a shattering 62HRC knife would say anything about how a 50-55HRC sword would do.
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Post by wildv on Jan 18, 2024 0:58:05 GMT
Yeah, my thoughts exactly. I just wish there was a destructive review of a D2 sword so I could see how much it can take, if it is any better than carbon steel under impact loads or if it chipps. I have only seen one D2 sword review, it's a low cost ebay sword and does not show if there was edge damage. It did survive a couple of ice block chops although who knows if it really is D2. Just so weird that it has the reputation of being extremely tough but also brittle.
EDIT: I imagine it must be like with carbon where swords are 50-55HRC while knives are around 60HRC. So I don't think a shattering 62HRC knife would say anything about how a 50-55HRC sword would do.
I would just assume most vendors tried D2 and found all this out which is why there aren't many D2 swords around. Lots of Chinese knife manufacturers sell as D2 but it's actually just T10 so it's possible there are no real D2 swords. Just something to consider. Funny you mention cutting ice, I could actually see a D2 sword doing that without damage. The damage and/or chipping in my mind would come from hitting something in a target that is a slightly different density or toughness, like a knot in wood, or the bamboo joined section, or a piece of that bamboo that just dried a little more than rest, or even a water bottle cap. Definitely going through a mat and hitting your stand could do it, it's just the way D2 is. I think the best way to put it, is that it's very tough steel, but also very unforgiving; in the sense if you blunt it or do something wrong, not intended for it, it'll break. Your right about the hardness sword V's knife but it's more about how the steel is in a molecular sense and how it works is what I meant, if you compared both at the same HRC, bring the knife to 55 and it'll still break like I mentioned.
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Post by toddstratton1 on Jan 18, 2024 3:04:40 GMT
Motohara uses D2 steel for hard target cutter swords. Never owned one myself but I used Jasons who owns Motohara. I'm assuming pretty durable since they offer a lifetime warranty on it if you're using it correctly. No problem cutting hard bamboo stalks with it when I did cutting with it.
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Post by wildv on Jan 19, 2024 5:55:51 GMT
Motohara uses D2 steel for hard target cutter swords. Never owned one myself but I used Jasons who owns Motohara. I'm assuming pretty durable since they offer a lifetime warranty on it if you're using it correctly. No problem cutting hard bamboo stalks with it when I did cutting with it. Interesting hands on experience! All I'm going off is my work with D2 steel, assumptions while educated can't beat real experience. Would love more people with any experience to add in here.
I also assume you're a pretty skilled swordsman and don't mess up cuts that often, or at least to a point of failure/damage. That could also be a consideration for D2. Like I said above it's a very good steel, but also very unforgiving.
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mrstabby
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Post by mrstabby on Jan 19, 2024 7:33:46 GMT
I just did a bit of destructive testing. I tortured a 50cent coin with my (already broken) D2 knife. First I did a cut with the pressure of one finger. Got a 6mm long glinting on the edge. Next I hacked at the copper alloy from around 12cm/5", not the hardest I could do but from experience with other knifes should be enough to produce some damage. I wasn't able to see anything, so I did a second, stronger hit - still nothing visible. My fingernail catches slightly where I hacked at the coin, but not much.
I thought it had better survived the hack test than the cut. Under the microscope, the cut rolled over the edge (it's quite flimsy at 15°/side compared to what I would put on a sword, but that's not the point here). The harder hit did nothing to the edge I could see at around 100x zoom. The first, softer hit actually chipped a bit. I am pretty sure the first, softer hit came in a bit sideways, so edge alinment is king....
Then I tortured a cutter blade. EDIT: I think it's 12°/side
Cut: Hack:
The damage from cutting is very similar (though it is less since I had a hard time getting a good grip to get the same pressure on), but when hacking at hard material (this should have been quite similar), the D2 chips. Although if it does not chip it holds up better. I think the damage on the hackings came from the raised parts of the coin. I know, not really comparable, just something to think about. I really like D2 in knives, better than the new super steels because it needs much less work to sharpen. I also like how sharp it can get, compared to 440C or 1065 I feel it gets a lot sharper. Those Honshu D2 really bug me. I would like to try one, but is it worth 300€? I could get many other nice things for that where I would know what I get.
In short, if you are ever in europe and find a twoface-looking 50c coin - sorry. (I have done this before....I know, career criminal, right?)
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Post by wildv on Jan 19, 2024 7:45:50 GMT
I just did a bit of destructive testing. I tortured a 50cent coin with my (already broken) D2 knife. First I did a cut with the pressure of one finger. Got a 6mm long glinting on the edge. Next I hacked at the copper alloy from around 12cm/5", not the hardest I could do but from experience with other knifes should be enough to produce some damage. I wasn't able to see anything, so I did a second, stronger hit - still nothing visible. My fingernail catches slightly where I hacked at the coin, but not much.
I thought it had better survived the hack test than the cut. Under the microscope, the cut rolled over the edge (it's quite flimsy at 15°/side compared to what I would put on a sword, but that's not the point here).
The harder hit did nothing to the edge I could see at around 100x zoom. The first, softer hit actually chipped a bit. I am pretty sure the first, softer hit came in a bit sideways, so edge alinment is king....
Then I tortured a cutter blade. EDIT: I think it's 12°/side
Cut: Hack:
The damage from cutting is very similar (though it is less since I had a hard time getting a good grip to get the same pressure on), but when hacking at hard material (this should have been quite similar), the D2 chips. Although if it does not chip it holds up better. I think the damage on the hackings came from the raised parts of the coin. I know, not really comparable, just something to think about. I really like D2 in knives, better than the new super steels because it needs much less work to sharpen. I also like how sharp it can get, compared to 440C or 1065 I feel it gets a lot sharper. Those Honshu D2 really bug me. I would like to try one, but is it worth 300€? I could get many other nice things for that where I would know what I get.
In short, if you are ever in europe and find a twoface-looking 50c coin - sorry. (I have done this before....I know, career criminal, right?)
Great stuff!! You've really experimented here and learnt a bit more about D2 yourself! Now, do you like it? Would you like it in a sword? I personally don't like D2 after working with it so much. I think there are better steels out there that are the best of both worlds (hold an edge but don't break so easy). Then there are other steels that do each of those better at sacrifice of the other. So D2 kind of sits in the middle somewhere. Like I said, it's a tough steel but unforgiving definitely in the upper echelon of tool steel though (it cost more than T10).
With the sword in question, I really think you could go better with another Gladius. BUT if you do buy and test PLEASE inform the forum here. Like I said, everything I've said is an educated guess.
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Post by mrstabby on Jan 19, 2024 8:36:01 GMT
I don't know about swords. I like it in knives, much more than M390 or S90V. Yes they stay sharp a lot longer, probably would see very little damage from the same cutting "test", but if you don't like working with D2, you will hate these two much more. D2 stays sharp longer when cutting cardboard for example (compared to 440C or SK5), so to me it's worth the added work sharpening, S90V not so much. And S90V for example also chips when abused. D2 is a good middle ground to me, also a lot cheaper to get than something like MagnaCut as well.
As I said, I don't think I can rationalize dropping 300$ on an unknown. I mean the reviews online are glowing, but did they use it as I would or just swing it twice and hung it on the wall? I also am not a fan of the TPR grips, so I would only buy one when I knew it was really good. Primarily I would be interested if the lower hardness D2 is as prone to chipping as the higher hardness is, that's my main concern. My knives are all around 60HRC, so I can't really test it. And I don't have the infrastructure to make and temper my own.
Looks like not many actually buy these for using, if I had the money to spare I would buy an trash one in an instant just out of curiousity.
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Post by izzy on Jan 19, 2024 10:17:23 GMT
www.amazon.com/Honshu-D2-Gladiator-Sword-Sheath/product-reviews/B099V7QV2L/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_paging_btm_next_2?pageNumber=2"I've had this for 9 months, with little use. The first time I actually went out to use it to cut brush, after 2 strikes on a piece of standing poplar wood (weaker type of wood), it snapped in half. (The picture is from hacking on the limb with the broken handle end of the sword.) Being a D2, it is supposed to be "very tough for a steel with such a high carbon content, and can provide that toughness at high hardness." I'm not sure how this was tempered but it is not what it should be or what you would be led to believe. This is definitely NOT a sword that is tough. If you are looking for a piece that is actually usable, I would NOT buy this. It would be good for looks or lite use only. It is very sharp and will cut through paper like you wouldn't believe. Anything else, not so much. I can't imagine actually using this for anything of substance. VERY disappointed in the actual durability of this "sword"." Picture in review shows sword broken it two...I don't like the holes in it, but if I did get it I'd get the 7cr13 model...if it was utter rubbish at least it's cheap.
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Post by mrstabby on Jan 19, 2024 10:31:38 GMT
Kind of what I expect to happen to be honest, although that can aways happen with any sword. It's either only some single blades are bad or nobody uses them. Forget about the 7Cr13. It might not be as brittle, but it won't keep an edge either. The one I had dulled from a single cut against a bottle, so f that. I really like the look of some of the bigger knives they sell, but the steel is just bad (the CS 1055 machetes hold a better edge and are cheaper). I also can't get it nearly as sharp as other stainless steels, so it starts out relatively dull as well. It's OK for something that won't see hard use, in all I really dislike it. They should just make this stuff from their 1065...
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Post by toddstratton1 on Jan 19, 2024 11:05:36 GMT
www.amazon.com/Honshu-D2-Gladiator-Sword-Sheath/product-reviews/B099V7QV2L/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_paging_btm_next_2?pageNumber=2"I've had this for 9 months, with little use. The first time I actually went out to use it to cut brush, after 2 strikes on a piece of standing poplar wood (weaker type of wood), it snapped in half. (The picture is from hacking on the limb with the broken handle end of the sword.) Being a D2, it is supposed to be "very tough for a steel with such a high carbon content, and can provide that toughness at high hardness." I'm not sure how this was tempered but it is not what it should be or what you would be led to believe. This is definitely NOT a sword that is tough. If you are looking for a piece that is actually usable, I would NOT buy this. It would be good for looks or lite use only. It is very sharp and will cut through paper like you wouldn't believe. Anything else, not so much. I can't imagine actually using this for anything of substance. VERY disappointed in the actual durability of this "sword"." Picture in review shows sword broken it two...I don't like the holes in it, but if I did get it I'd get the 7cr13 model...if it was utter rubbish at least it's cheap. A sword produced that cheaply could have quite a few other factors for that kind of damage, like poor heat treat and etc. I would say the best way we would know how a proper D2 steel sword would last is to get a high quality D2 sword and send it to Matthew Jensen for abuse and destruction testing lol. From experience again I can say many JSA practioneers are using D2 steel Katanas as training tools from Motohara Katana and they are neither cheap swords to buy ($2,500+ starting prices), nor have I heard of anyone having any catastrophic failures with one of them. Again lifetime warranty on the blades. I've known people who have also cut into the wooden stand they use to cut mats and etc, or cut through the dowel and etc. Didn't cause any major issues then either. However they aren't given a warranty on the sword If you start hitting metal objects, cement, hard trees etc. It's meant for normal hard target training objects that are designed for cutting like hard bamboo stalk and etc. However those are hardly that abusive of materials. I would be very curious to know how a d2 steel sword or katana would hold up to harsher abuse tests that was made with a certain garuntee of quality though.
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Post by mrstabby on Jan 19, 2024 11:55:07 GMT
So, if I were to fork out 2500$ for a sword to be destructively tested, I am definately going to be the one to destroy it! But yeah, not in the cards for me.
It is a pretty niche steel for swords and there is probably a reason why so few use it (likely machinability and heat treat complexity). It has gotten a big availability boost recently (in europe at least), so I thought there might be more information now.
Fascinating that it is rumoured to be both, brittle and tough at the same time. But that's likely a heat treat issue, D2 milling bits for example souldn't be brittle like glass either. United Cutlery is a weird manufacturer, they produce real crap and good blades at the same time and you never know what is what until it's tested... But I expected the D2 stuff not to be worth it to be honest, just thought someone might have some experience
toddstratton1 Do you have any idea how hard Motohara makes their D2 Katana? I haven't found much information besides that they exist. According to UC their D2 is 58-62HRC, which is MUCH too hard in my opinion, but what do I know.
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Post by toddstratton1 on Jan 19, 2024 12:54:31 GMT
So, if I were to fork out 2500$ for a sword to be destructively tested, I am definately going to be the one to destroy it! But yeah, not in the cards for me.
It is a pretty niche steel for swords and there is probably a reason why so few use it (likely machinability and heat treat complexity). It has gotten a big availability boost recently (in europe at least), so I thought there might be more information now.
Fascinating that it is rumoured to be both, brittle and tough at the same time. But that's likely a heat treat issue, D2 milling bits for example souldn't be brittle like glass either. United Cutlery is a weird manufacturer, they produce real crap and good blades at the same time and you never know what is what until it's tested... But I expected the D2 stuff not to be worth it to be honest, just thought someone might have some experience
toddstratton1 Do you have any idea how hard Motohara makes their D2 Katana? I haven't found much information besides that they exist. According to UC their D2 is 58-62HRC, which is MUCH too hard in my opinion, but what do I know.
Motohara has quite a few steel types they with right now and others in the past. They also to a limited degree make some with cpm 3v steel. You can reach out to Jason at his email on the website at motohara katana/evolution blades if you want any specific questions answered about the steels and etc though. Personally I don't know anything about it besides using it myself for training and practice. I never asked more specific details about the metallurgy of the steel on swords I'm using or have used. Beyond what steel type it is, and knowing that their L6 steel they used to use wasn't bainite. I only own an SGT steel "multi purpose cutter" right now. I'm heavily interested in picking up a CPM 3V hard target cutter sword though.
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Post by izzy on Jan 19, 2024 15:39:34 GMT
www.amazon.com/Honshu-D2-Gladiator-Sword-Sheath/product-reviews/B099V7QV2L/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_paging_btm_next_2?pageNumber=2"I've had this for 9 months, with little use. The first time I actually went out to use it to cut brush, after 2 strikes on a piece of standing poplar wood (weaker type of wood), it snapped in half. (The picture is from hacking on the limb with the broken handle end of the sword.) Being a D2, it is supposed to be "very tough for a steel with such a high carbon content, and can provide that toughness at high hardness." I'm not sure how this was tempered but it is not what it should be or what you would be led to believe. This is definitely NOT a sword that is tough. If you are looking for a piece that is actually usable, I would NOT buy this. It would be good for looks or lite use only. It is very sharp and will cut through paper like you wouldn't believe. Anything else, not so much. I can't imagine actually using this for anything of substance. VERY disappointed in the actual durability of this "sword"." Picture in review shows sword broken it two...I don't like the holes in it, but if I did get it I'd get the 7cr13 model...if it was utter rubbish at least it's cheap. A sword produced that cheaply could have quite a few other factors for that kind of damage, like poor heat treat and etc. I would say the best way we would know how a proper D2 steel sword would last is to get a high quality D2 sword and send it to Matthew Jensen for abuse and destruction testing lol. From experience again I can say many JSA practioneers are using D2 steel Katanas as training tools from Motohara Katana and they are neither cheap swords to buy ($2,500+ starting prices), nor have I heard of anyone having any catastrophic failures with one of them. Again lifetime warranty on the blades. I've known people who have also cut into the wooden stand they use to cut mats and etc, or cut through the dowel and etc. Didn't cause any major issues then either. However they aren't given a warranty on the sword If you start hitting metal objects, cement, hard trees etc. It's meant for normal hard target training objects that are designed for cutting like hard bamboo stalk and etc. However those are hardly that abusive of materials. I would be very curious to know how a d2 steel sword or katana would hold up to harsher abuse tests that was made with a certain garuntee of quality though. No doubt, that's some bad heat treat, but what does one expect from United Cutlery, I wrote them off long ago. The guy claimed he was cutting Poplar limbs. Short swords ( like cabbage cutters) were historically used to cut brush by soldiers.
Do we know if Motohara uses standard D2 or CPM-D2? CPM-D2 has a smaller carbide size and might work well...that makes a difference as it not the same steel.
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Post by Tiers1 on Jan 19, 2024 17:00:25 GMT
D2 is not a tough steel, and from what I recall is not a forgiving steel with regards to a botched heat treatment....so it's not necessarily a good candidate for a long blade seeing strong impacts. Of course mats and wooden dowels will not be a problem; I've had swords that were way over-hardened (meaning their toughness was abysmal) and they survived mats and wooden targets without issue. Upon destructive testing they snapped very quickly. Does anyone remember Criswell? He used really hard A2 steel for his katanas and they did well. When I took it to a very hard target it snapped in two.
I'll repeat my common refrain - sword manufacturers both custom and production know that the chance the end customer will use the sword for anything beyond mats or wood is incredibly small, particularly where more expensive swords are concerned. Nearly every collector I've ever met, even the well-off ones who could easy replace things, couldn't stomach damaging the finish, let alone anything else. Sword manufacturers know this.
I've never seen actual heat treating equipment in Chinese edged weapons workshops. I don't doubt it exists, but I don't think it gets used much because it doesn't actually make economic sense to do so. Particularly, the equipment uses alot of electricity...enough to legitimately affect profit margin. So D2 mass production swords are probably getting the usual Longquan heat treatment which is essentially an interrupted quench with no real tempering. This means you might get lucky and the stars s aligned, or you might get something one strike away from breakage. Motohara I am sure uses an actual heat treatment for their blades, or at least I would hope so for $2500. So there is enough toughness for reasonable use.
With regards to Cpm 3v remember that after 60hrc the toughness drops off rapidly. A 62 hrc 3v sword will not be very tough, though of course it will still be tough enough for mats and they occasionally missed strike landing in wood.
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Post by izzy on Jan 20, 2024 19:35:07 GMT
Kind of what I expect to happen to be honest, although that can aways happen with any sword. It's either only some single blades are bad or nobody uses them. Forget about the 7Cr13. It might not be as brittle, but it won't keep an edge either. The one I had dulled from a single cut against a bottle, so f that. I really like the look of some of the bigger knives they sell, but the steel is just bad (the CS 1055 machetes hold a better edge and are cheaper). I also can't get it nearly as sharp as other stainless steels, so it starts out relatively dull as well. It's OK for something that won't see hard use, in all I really dislike it. They should just make this stuff from their 1065...
Which brand was that?
7Cr13 should have plenty of carbon to harden up, I suspect poor heat treat. It's poor Chinese cousin 4Cr13 can make decent kitchen cutlery ( with proper heat treat of course). But like I said "if it was utter rubbish at least it's cheap" If one were to give me the choice between D2 and 7Cr13...I'd take the latter. To clarify, not because it's great for swords, but because of UC's well known issues in the Heat treat Dept.
I am personally am repulsed by 2 things with the swords, 1. United Cutlery 2. Holes in the sword...it is obviously not meant for tough use.
My wife snaggled the Cobra Steel "Lankonia" from me, and that blade was not easy to sharpen, indicating decent hardness.
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Post by toddstratton1 on Jan 20, 2024 19:54:32 GMT
How do these other super steels compare to something like 6150? For all sword use intended purposes I don't really feel I'd ever need more than 6150 which is what Albion uses for their swords and has really good results for toughness, edge retention, durability, etc.
And the consistent high quality of blades seems great. Whereas D2 seems to have exceptional qualities but also some trade offs as a result. Personally other steel type I'm most interested is a Bainite L6 Katana from Howard Clark, but I'm not sure when I'll justify to myself that I should spend so much on a sword haha. Not that I think it's not absolutely worth it. Just a lot of money to invest. Despite saying that I've spent more than the cost of a single fully mounted and finished howard clark blade on other swords I own, for total collection combined value. Perhaps enough to buy 2 lol.
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Post by mrstabby on Jan 20, 2024 21:05:53 GMT
I had multiple 7Cr13, a United Cutlery, some chinese pocket knives (which were pretty hard and actually better than the UC) and a Gerber (although that was 7Cr17). They all performed about the same, worse than 440C, kinda like 440A. It's not a hardness problem, they just don't get as sharp or hold an edge as long for me (even at the same hardness). You might get different results with different grinds, like more tooty, more polished ore different angles. When everything is the same, I like 440C way more for knives. 440A gets slightly sharper but the 7Cr13 keeps sharp longer.
The Cobra Steel line are X46Cr14 (1.4034) wich has less carbon than 7Cr13, but more than 4Cr13, all else is pretty similar. Any staniless steel is harder to sharpen than carbon steel, even at equal hardness, because of the carbides. The Cobras are AFIAK 48-50HRC, so pretty close to the carbon steel offerings (maybe even softer). In a knife I'd take almost anything over the 7Cr13, although I still sometimes carry the cheap chinese knifes, they are OK for what they cost, but I am never going to buy 7Cr again. 9Cr maybe.
I have steered clear of the Cobra Steel line because they are stainless. I have seen some reviews on stainless steel machetes and they never outperform even the lower carbon steels when you hit stuff with it. The edges roll over like PlayDoh on soft blades. Again, I have no idea how the Cobras perform, and reviews show them not breaking, but that's not all that counts for me. I'd rather get a 1065 in the end. I have a few things from UC and they are pretty good, as long as they are carbon steel. Good finis, nice looks and the hardness is in the low 50sHRC, just like most other budget oriented makers. The holes, yeah, they always worry me. United Cutlery was just the one company I know which sells D2 short swords for an affordale price, so I thought someone actually might have bought and used one.
@ toddstratton1: Yeah, I'd be pretty interested how something like 14C28N or Magnacut would do @55hrc (or if you could go even higher without getting a blade that fractures) with an at least 50cm/20" blade, they are much tougher than D2 but have a similar or higher edge retention. They also have carbides/nitrides though which could also make them chippy, but we won't know until someone tries. At lower hardness I would actually think that it would be more inclined to chip out carbides, just a feeling, and they are much smaller than D2 (the non CPM version at least). For me edge retention would be the primary factor for choosing such a sword, rust isn't that big of an issue for me.
The L6 Bainite is interesting, because as far as I understand an edge made of Bainite would be relatively weak, so you have to do differential hardening to get the best combination, and the edge itself won't be better than other high carbon steel, but the Bainite would be much, much tougher than 6150.
Problem with all these is, you can't do that without a very good temperature regulated furnace and upgraded grinding equipment, so we'll likely never see actually trustworthy "cheap" stuff. I am very interested though, would a Magnacut sword that cost 10x more be 10x better? In the end I doubt it. Something like Magnacut or 14C28N (or any other very tough super steel) might hold an edge longer and be as tough as 6150, but when it dulls it takes a lot more to get the edge back to sharp. I would not want to have to sharpen a 80cm/30" blade made from 440C, let alone something like Magnacut. Especially if it does microchip.
I didn't intend buying that specific UC gladius, I was just interested. I can get D2 a lot sharper than 440C, not unlike 1084 and I am not that good at sharpening compared to things I have seen done on the internet. I like the idea of a 20" razor that keeps its bite longer than 10series steel. My guess is, that D2 has a reputation for toughness compared to the other stainless steels of the 2000s but is obviously more brittle than carbon steel. A "chinese whispers" issue maybe.
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Post by izzy on Jan 21, 2024 6:22:25 GMT
I had multiple 7Cr13, a United Cutlery, some chinese pocket knives (which were pretty hard and actually better than the UC) and a Gerber (although that was 7Cr17). They all performed about the same, worse than 440C, kinda like 440A. It's not a hardness problem, they just don't get as sharp or hold an edge as long for me (even at the same hardness). You might get different results with different grinds, like more tooty, more polished ore different angles. When everything is the same, I like 440C way more for knives. 440A gets slightly sharper but the 7Cr13 keeps sharp longer.
The Cobra Steel line are X46Cr14 (1.4034) wich has less carbon than 7Cr13, but more than 4Cr13, all else is pretty similar. Any staniless steel is harder to sharpen than carbon steel, even at equal hardness, because of the carbides. The Cobras are AFIAK 48-50HRC, so pretty close to the carbon steel offerings (maybe even softer). In a knife I'd take almost anything over the 7Cr13, although I still sometimes carry the cheap chinese knifes, they are OK for what they cost, but I am never going to buy 7Cr again. 9Cr maybe.
I have steered clear of the Cobra Steel line because they are stainless. I have seen some reviews on stainless steel machetes and they never outperform even the lower carbon steels when you hit stuff with it. The edges roll over like PlayDoh on soft blades. Again, I have no idea how the Cobras perform, and reviews show them not breaking, but that's not all that counts for me. I'd rather get a 1065 in the end. I have a few things from UC and they are pretty good, as long as they are carbon steel. Good finis, nice looks and the hardness is in the low 50sHRC, just like most other budget oriented makers. The holes, yeah, they always worry me. United Cutlery was just the one company I know which sells D2 short swords for an affordale price, so I thought someone actually might have bought and used one.
@ toddstratton1: Yeah, I'd be pretty interested how something like 14C28N or Magnacut would do @55hrc (or if you could go even higher without getting a blade that fractures) with an at least 50cm/20" blade, they are much tougher than D2 but have a similar or higher edge retention. They also have carbides/nitrides though which could also make them chippy, but we won't know until someone tries. At lower hardness I would actually think that it would be more inclined to chip out carbides, just a feeling, and they are much smaller than D2 (the non CPM version at least). For me edge retention would be the primary factor for choosing such a sword, rust isn't that big of an issue for me.
The L6 Bainite is interesting, because as far as I understand an edge made of Bainite would be relatively weak, so you have to do differential hardening to get the best combination, and the edge itself won't be better than other high carbon steel, but the Bainite would be much, much tougher than 6150.
Problem with all these is, you can't do that without a very good temperature regulated furnace and upgraded grinding equipment, so we'll likely never see actually trustworthy "cheap" stuff. I am very interested though, would a Magnacut sword that cost 10x more be 10x better? In the end I doubt it. Something like Magnacut or 14C28N (or any other very tough super steel) might hold an edge longer and be as tough as 6150, but when it dulls it takes a lot more to get the edge back to sharp. I would not want to have to sharpen a 80cm/30" blade made from 440C, let alone something like Magnacut. Especially if it does microchip.
I didn't intend buying that specific UC gladius, I was just interested. I can get D2 a lot sharper than 440C, not unlike 1084 and I am not that good at sharpening compared to things I have seen done on the internet. I like the idea of a 20" razor that keeps its bite longer than 10series steel. My guess is, that D2 has a reputation for toughness compared to the other stainless steels of the 2000s but is obviously more brittle than carbon steel. A "chinese whispers" issue maybe.
Yes I have sharpened enough Stainless and Carbon to see the difference, stainless can be quite hard to sharpen depending on a lot of factors...when I was younger I had a BUCK 120, I was 10 it was 1985, and my parents took me for my birthday to Service Merchandise ( now defunct) where the choice was the Kabar, or the Buck, I chose the buck, but that 425M ( I learned later) is was on the harder side and a bear to sharpen on stones even after I learned to do so...
For our entertainment, here is are pictures of a cheap Chinese Chef Knife, "Brightland" brand, these guys obviously have proper ovens to heat treat 4Cr13 and they must run it hard ( likely too hard for a Sword /Machete)...as mentioned before on this forum I was cutting a Grey Pumpkin with a "fire and stones cut" and hit the corner of an old Sheet metal Shelf ( this stuff can be very hard on drill bits). The damage ( mostly denting) on one side is more than on the other...the edge itself has a small nick, but no serious rolling that a stone would not handle...just to show what is possible with a cheap stainless properly heat treated. I went and bought 2 more, one sits in my camping pack...they cost me about 7.50 to 8 USD depending on currency conversion (!)
Edge thickness measured about 3 to 4mm from the edge is .69mm close to the tip ( where it took the damage). To .76 mm closer to the handle, so pretty thing edge geometry...needless to say I was impressed. If the edge geometry was thicker and convex grind, even a bit softer, it could make an acceptable short sword IMHO.
On Cobra Steel, I was under the impression they are 48-52 HRC, at least according to KoA,that is a pretty wide margin, and knowing Windlass some will be softer than that, and some will be harder. ( oops! )..IDK I got it like almost 4 years ago...it was cheap, and my wife just takes what she wants , so other than sharpening I have not had a chance to play with it. The Lankonia is one of the heaviest Cobra Steel blades, so it's well suited for a convex / sloppy sharpening. X46Cr14 Stainless Steel can be taken to 55 HRC, but Windlass is smart enough not to do that on a "sword"
(ON a side note, it is questionable if the "Lankonia" is a sword, as it''s not even an "Amma" sword {ones personal cubit in length, considered a very short sword}...one could imagine the arguments of the ancients on that one, given the controversy even back then...).
We have had a discussion on 14C28n V.s 12C27, but either would be better at 56 HRC than the upper limit for X46Cr14. Refining the grain structure with Cryo would be a nice touch if it did not go beyond 56 HRC...any thoughts on that would be welcome.
I have read good things online about the Honshu ( UC) 1060 line, but can't bring myself to buy UC, even on the cheap, as my experiences with them date back many years ago when just about everything they made was junk...
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