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Post by mrstabby on Jan 21, 2024 9:33:36 GMT
Very likely harder than you could get away with in longer blades (most of these are at least 55HRC). I chopped at dried elder wood with a few things, the wood is very hard on edges when dry. It was a small twig, only 1cm/0,4" in diameter harvested the year before. 420@~50HRC got the biggest roll 1095@45-48(not sure but lower than the 420 or 1055) smaller or maybe the same as 420 1055@~50 rolled a bit less than 1095 440C@~58 lost the least amount of edge (although it did not roll, the apex was just gone, broke away, in the end still the least amount to repair) I looked at the damage with a 30x jewelers lupe and graded how deep it was gouged and how wide the remaining edge was, still very subjective. As long as there are no big chips, it looks like it's all about hardness even for impact loads (if the edge geometry is similar and you don't compare a 25°/side to a 17°/side). It seems cutting by dragging is rounding over edges quicker than a hard impact with good edge alignment. I did not use the 7Cr13 for chopping, only cut some cardboard (which is also pretty rough) to compare. At the same hardness the 7Cr outperformed 440A by a bit, but did not do as well as 440C. The 7Cr got to 'not being able to cut paper any longer' quicker, the difference isn't wild, one cut more or less. You might also see more difference if you went for "really dull" in the end. 7Cr and 440A are a bit tougher, this is why you see them and the lower end 420 and 4Cr on longer blades. It's not that I am saying it's a bad steel, it's a OK cheap steel, but in the 100-150€ price range you can do a lot better for knives and swords. I also don't trust 7Cr toughness for longer blades, I mean good enough for bottles and stuff, but I'd be wary hitting the stand. It's not only the D2 ones that have reported failures.
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Post by izzy on Jan 21, 2024 10:52:03 GMT
Very likely harder than you could get away with in longer blades (most of these are at least 55HRC). I chopped at dried elder wood with a few things, the wood is very hard on edges when dry. It was a small twig, only 1cm/0,4" in diameter harvested the year before. 420@~50HRC got the biggest roll 1095@45-48(not sure but lower than the 420 or 1055) smaller or maybe the same as 420 1055@~50 rolled a bit less than 1095 440C@~58 lost the least amount of edge (although it did not roll, the apex was just gone, broke away, in the end still the least amount to repair) I looked at the damage with a 30x jewelers lupe and graded how deep it was gouged and how wide the remaining edge was, still very subjective. As long as there are no big chips, it looks like it's all about hardness even for impact loads (if the edge geometry is similar and you don't compare a 25°/side to a 17°/side). It seems cutting by dragging is rounding over edges quicker than a hard impact with good edge alignment. I did not use the 7Cr13 for chopping, only cut some cardboard (which is also pretty rough) to compare. At the same hardness the 7Cr outperformed 440A by a bit, but did not do as well as 440C. The 7Cr got to 'not being able to cut paper any longer' quicker, the difference isn't wild, one cut more or less. You might also see more difference if you went for "really dull" in the end. 7Cr and 440A are a bit tougher, this is why you see them and the lower end 420 and 4Cr on longer blades. It's not that I am saying it's a bad steel, it's a OK cheap steel, but in the 100-150€ price range you can do a lot better for knives and swords. I also don't trust 7Cr toughness for longer blades, I mean good enough for bottles and stuff, but I'd be wary hitting the stand. It's not only the D2 ones that have reported failures. Thank you for your stats, and Agreed!
There is a "spartan" UC "Honshu" on Youtube that broke, I don't think it was D2....but that is a forward heavy wacky design in any case, but is it a HT issue, a design issue or just steel issue, or a combination of all 3, IDK. Around .6 C seems to be the "sweet spot" for steel, especially Stainless, but Carbon as well. Stainless needs good Quality Control with proper Heat Treat, while Carbon steel is more forgiving on average.
I appreciate that you just brought the UC "gladiator" only as an example, and believe me, even with my apprehension to UC, I have looked at it myself....and done enough research to dismiss it even with a pre-shipping 80 USD price tag in the United States. Cobra Steel ( windlass) used a much lower Carbon content stainless, and just a small step up from 4Cr13, and low hardness....so even if its not the best sword, it's "Otay!"
If Motohara can make D2 work at 1.5% C, that speaks more for it's Heat treat than the steel itself IMHO. ( Is it really CPM-d2?) I cringe at 1095 blades, T10, and other Carbon steels above 1084 in a sword, even a short one that might take heavy use.
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Post by mrstabby on Jan 21, 2024 11:11:15 GMT
Likely you need to really tightly control the heat treatment process to within a few degrees, just like with Bainite. Nothing you can do with an induction heater or coal forge. The Cobra Steel seem pretty tough. These were made in 1095 at the beginning, I wonder why they changed it. Darn it, I had the Kindjal in mind, the longer one, which is just a bit too long for me to trust in the stainless. I know, pretty arbitrary, I would go for the Lakonia, but I am pretty set for 30-35cm/12-13" blades.
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Post by izzy on Jan 21, 2024 11:59:05 GMT
Likely you need to really tightly control the heat treatment process to within a few degrees, just like with Bainite. Nothing you can do with an induction heater or coal forge. The Cobra Steel seem pretty tough. These were made in 1095 at the beginning, I wonder why they changed it. Darn it, I had the Kindjal in mind, the longer one, which is just a bit too long for me to trust in the stainless. I know, pretty arbitrary, I would go for the Lakonia, but I am pretty set for 30-35cm/12-13" blades. Yah they still have 1095 up on their website, including the 48-52 rockwell, which makes that figure for the stainless suspect ( or not?). They have switched so long ago, why are they so silly as to not change it on their own site???
While on the Cobra Steel website, on the bottom it becomes even more interesting:
"Windlass cobra steel
Windlass proudly brings to you a collection of multi-purpose knives which feature hand-forged, X46Cr13 high grade stainless steel blades that have been fully tempered in state-of-the-art computer controlled ovens."
Hand forging stainless, really? I know it can be done with difficulty, but sounds a bit fishy...besides the "Lankonia" does not look forged, unless it was a perfect forge with expensive polishing, etc. ( not likely)
So why go to a lower end Kitchen Cutlery steel?
Well it's usually purer than the 10XX series these days, with European mills opening up factories in the east, their is better quality control in terms of recycled materials:
"If you get the actual spec sheets, I think you're going to find a lot more chromium and other stuff than you were expecting. Even straight 10-series steel can be carrying chrome, nickel, etc. Really pure 10-series is almost a thing of the past, I talked to a gunsmith who told me he needed to hot-blue anything made since 1980 twice as long because of the extra crap in it."
BTW, I completely understand wanting a blade of a certain length, I am that way too...one wants or needs what they don't have enough of.
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Post by warriorpoet on Feb 7, 2024 3:09:05 GMT
Honestly if you're after pure durability, I haven't seen cold steels machete swords beat.
I think those are like, 1055 carbon?
Yeah, you'll retouch the edge but it's easy to work with. You could probably do it on cement if you had to.
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Post by wildv on Feb 7, 2024 6:17:47 GMT
Honestly if you're after pure durability, I haven't seen cold steels machete swords beat. I think those are like, 1055 carbon? Yeah, you'll retouch the edge but it's easy to work with. You could probably do it on cement if you had to. This is exactly why I don't like D2. It's a pain to resharpen and in my experience only held an edge for a marginal amount of time more compared to carbon steels. I'd personally just go carbon OR go crazy and go L6 (treated properly). All the stuff in the middle which includes D2 just isn't worth the bother in my honest opinion.
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Post by mrstabby on Feb 7, 2024 9:40:27 GMT
I have been using 1055 for processing meat and it has horrible edge retention in my opinion. Tough yes, but not at all well rounded, I have to resharpen too often. Even my cheapest IKEA kitchen knife lasts longer. 1075 (Tramontina) or 1065 (Windlass) beat the CS 1055 hands down in all aspects but corrosion resistance. I don't find 1055 much tougher (if it is at all) to bend or damage than 1075. The 1075 being a bit harder was actually a lot more work to bend or straighten out than the 1055 blades. Even though I had problems with Tramontinas QC, I prefer them for hacking down brush, they just keep an edge a lot better. For cutting meat or carving wood 440C holds an almost razor edge at least 4x as long as 1055 and the D2 is slightly above 440C (maybe 10-20% better, not much). I can see glinting on the 1055 after cutting up 1 turkey breast, for the 440C I begin to feel dulling at the 4th, but never saw as much edge being lost as with the 1055. Yes it's easy to touch up, but it's also very easy to dull. So in my opinion 1055 and D2 are worlds apart in edge retention.
In the end it's all relative though, depending how sharp is sharp for you and what you do with it, but for me the 1055 is just not a well rounded carbon steel. Not that D2 is well rounded either, but I rather sharpen before or after I finish my work than after every single cut. D2 isn't that bad to sharpen, I find it's not much worse than 440C in the end (a lot depends on hardness), diamond abrasives also have become really cheap. Primarily I like D2 because I can get it a lot sharper than 440C with less effort, more like the edge on 1084 or 1095 and it keeps that edge a lot longer for me. Toughness and chipping are my worries with D2, according to knifesteelnerds tests D2 is around 30-40% less tough than 1095, but this test is done around 60HRC and not really applicable to swords.
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Post by warriorpoet on Mar 18, 2024 22:22:40 GMT
Not sure if you go on the youtubez, but a fella named joex did the most extreme torture tests on blades that ive ever seen. He goes until they break, then he goes more.
He was taken down briefly. I'm not sure why, but I think his channel is back up. He said censorship in his country (Austria I want to say?).
His videos definitely influenced my decision to try to cs machete swords. He tests high dollar to cheapie. The cold steel jungle machete and kukri I remember specifically being essentially unbreakable.
He hits them on steel pipes, concrete, a car, stabs into wood and prys to try to break the tip, etc. The longer a videos run time, generally the tougher the blade.
Cold steel and their cheap 1055 properly heat treated is apocalypse proof, on a budget we can all afford. I'll never do half the stuff he puts his blades through...but I like knowing they can.
In the inevitable coming Wasteland /WW3 / Furby uprising you can take a cs machete and bash the evil robots unto their doom!
(Then spit on a curb, and sharpen it back up to do it all again tomorrow).
It is very interesting all jokes aside. The kabar Becker bk9 is considered a great stout shtf blade. It broke in minutes. Cold steel jungle machete was like 30 mins of wailing on bricks and holding up. Ymmv
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Post by izzy on Apr 8, 2024 15:18:45 GMT
Not sure if you go on the youtubez, but a fella named joex did the most extreme torture tests on blades that ive ever seen. He goes until they break, then he goes more. He was taken down briefly. I'm not sure why, but I think his channel is back up. He said censorship in his country (Austria I want to say?). His videos definitely influenced my decision to try to cs machete swords. He tests high dollar to cheapie. The cold steel jungle machete and kukri I remember specifically being essentially unbreakable. He hits them on steel pipes, concrete, a car, stabs into wood and prys to try to break the tip, etc. The longer a videos run time, generally the tougher the blade. Cold steel and their cheap 1055 properly heat treated is apocalypse proof, on a budget we can all afford. I'll never do half the stuff he puts his blades through...but I like knowing they can. In the inevitable coming Wasteland /WW3 / Furby uprising you can take a cs machete and bash the evil robots unto their doom! (Then spit on a curb, and sharpen it back up to do it all again tomorrow). It is very interesting all jokes aside. The kabar Becker bk9 is considered a great stout shtf blade. It broke in minutes. Cold steel jungle machete was like 30 mins of wailing on bricks and holding up. Ymmv Mr. Stabby was the one who told me about JoeX...he does have some really neat vids, no doubt. When we talk about steel we cant forget the Rockwell hardness, and other additions besides Carbon to things like Kitchen cutlery ( like a touch of Vanadium and usually a lot of Chromium, etc.. ).
I like my steel at least .6% C to .8% C, or somewhere in that range, for most applications. But it also has to have the HRC that is appropriate to whatever application it is designed for. One must also consider grain structure in steel, esp. when you get to higher alloy steels.
Nothing against Cold Steel, but my time communing with a (now older/ thicker model) Tramontina Bolo Machete killing invasive Sand Pines ( branding the older, chopping down the saplings) for many days made me a fan of sorts. I did have to sharpen it quite a bit to get to the better steel underneath...and touch it up at night once I got it shaving sharp....my older example was not very hard, even the "better steel" underneath. With Mr. Stabby getting slightly warped machetes, it's possible they hare making them a little harder (?) to compensate for using a bit less steel ( ?). The bad news is some MAY be warped, the good news is that is a sign they had heat treat.
Now with them ( Tramontina) going a bit thinner in the Bolo model, IDK which machete I would choose between the two. Cold Steel in now appears to be making some Items in China ( yet again)...so it could be different ( balance) than the South African made ones...things change and are not very stable right now.
IOW if you like CS machetes, and you got a good one you trust, there is nothing wrong with that...1055 easily gets to "machete hardness" and makes a usable tool.
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Post by larason2 on Apr 8, 2024 17:27:06 GMT
Yeah, I have two older cold steel swords, and they're both pretty great. I'm sure there were always lemons, but the ones I have have been well tested, survived, and are still good cutters.
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Post by warriorpoet on Apr 8, 2024 17:55:35 GMT
There's definitely some variations. My first cs machete swords was the gladius back in early 2018.
It's kept and held a great edge. The only issue the the tip being too thin and keen, but it survived general woods bumming destruction tests and I've chopped down trees with it so large that is a little ridiculous!
I have some newer models that needed touched up after using them in the yard to hack a few vines and delimb under 1 inch thick.
I just bought the cutlass machete and it was made in China.
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Post by mrstabby on Apr 9, 2024 6:06:39 GMT
AFIAK the difference of 1055 and 1095 at the same hardness is negligible and for plain carbon higher carbon only hardness counts, higher carbon only means higher potential hardness. For higher alloy steels (and stainless) it's different since the added metals change the structure and abrasion resistance by being there, independant of hardness. So at 50HRC it really doesn't matter if it's 1055 or 1095. The Tramontina 1075 machetes are a lot harder that the CS 1055 (~54HRC vs ~50HRC), they are also much tougher to bend out of shape and keep a better edge even with thinner stock, and the CS grips wreak all hell on my hand joints when I hit something resistant. I don't think the CS are the best for the money, but they have more interesting shapes.
I also don't neccessarily think made in china is bad depending on who does the heat treat, but how it stacks up - we will see. I am very interested if the chinese models are harder, softer or the same as the SA versions. Not that hardness is everything - if it's badly heat treated it could still be more or less brittle.
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Post by mrstabby on Apr 9, 2024 6:14:08 GMT
Not sure if you go on the youtubez, but a fella named joex did the most extreme torture tests on blades that ive ever seen. He goes until they break, then he goes more. He was taken down briefly. I'm not sure why, but I think his channel is back up. He said censorship in his country (Austria I want to say?). His videos definitely influenced my decision to try to cs machete swords. He tests high dollar to cheapie. The cold steel jungle machete and kukri I remember specifically being essentially unbreakable. He hits them on steel pipes, concrete, a car, stabs into wood and prys to try to break the tip, etc. The longer a videos run time, generally the tougher the blade. Cold steel and their cheap 1055 properly heat treated is apocalypse proof, on a budget we can all afford. I'll never do half the stuff he puts his blades through...but I like knowing they can. In the inevitable coming Wasteland /WW3 / Furby uprising you can take a cs machete and bash the evil robots unto their doom! (Then spit on a curb, and sharpen it back up to do it all again tomorrow). It is very interesting all jokes aside. The kabar Becker bk9 is considered a great stout shtf blade. It broke in minutes. Cold steel jungle machete was like 30 mins of wailing on bricks and holding up. Ymmv If you want to know, a neighbour (or other hater) taddled on him and had said he was crazy, so the state went to him, took his weapons and assed if he was. Not really censorship, just common sense to be careful with weapons in the hands of crazy people. Now how this all went down is another story, effing nosy neighbour or a surveyour they sent went on his property, ran around inthe dark and said "there are shell casings and broken blades EVERYWHERE - He is crazy" and "someone think of the children" literally 'what if a child went there', IT'S A FENCED OFF PRIVATE PROPERTY, MATE! Joe-X can do what he likes there as long as he does not endanger anyone outside.... Of course his acting in the videos didn't help matters - but it's entertainment, of course he exaggerates.
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Post by izzy on Apr 9, 2024 9:05:11 GMT
And here we are with a side Conversation about JoeX and his vids were supposedly self Deleted recently (February) and it seems put back up due to continued issues....so if you have something to look up, and have the data to watch, better watch soon IMHO.
==============
Here is something even MORE interesting, someone did a test on a CS Bushman in "SK-5"... it was in the range of AISI SAE 1095 ( .90-1.03 % C is the range for 1095) plus quite a few impurities, almost no Cu , etc. Not drawing conclusions from ONE test, ONE blade form ONE batch...but just FYI. However that one example came out to between 0.937 % C to 0.941% C, and 56 HRC. www.bladeforums.com/threads/sk-5-bushman-failed-in-latest-joe-x-destruction-test.1859700/page-4 ( see post 73) www.theworldmaterial.com/sae-aisi-1095-high-carbon-steel/
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Post by mrstabby on Apr 9, 2024 11:49:29 GMT
And here we are with a side Conversation about JoeX and his vids were supposedly self Deleted recently (February) and it seems put back up due to continued issues....so if you have something to look up, and have the data to watch, better watch soon IMHO.
Nah, issues are resolved. He now has the stamp of approval from a judge, so he is safe unless something really unexpected happens. The videos were only private, he did that himself as precaution during the trial he said. They are all back now and new ones coming every few days.
I like the CS SK5, they are quite hard though. The Recon Tanto survived the same test where the SRK broke, so the SRK might actually have been a lemon (or too hard).
BTW I have seen him torture a few D2 knives, and they seem to break and chip, but not moreso than hard 1095. This plus that some Katana are made from D2 makes me think it actually might be a vaiable choice.
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Post by izzy on Apr 9, 2024 13:51:17 GMT
And here we are with a side Conversation about JoeX and his vids were supposedly self Deleted recently (February) and it seems put back up due to continued issues....so if you have something to look up, and have the data to watch, better watch soon IMHO.
Nah, issues are resolved. He now has the stamp of approval from a judge, so he is safe unless something really unexpected happens. The videos were only private, he did that himself as precaution during the trial he said. They are all back now and new ones coming every few days.
I like the CS SK5, they are quite hard though. The Recon Tanto survived the same test where the SRK broke, so the SRK might actually have been a lemon (or too hard).
BTW I have seen him torture a few D2 knives, and they seem to break and chip, but not moreso than hard 1095. This plus that some Katana are made from D2 makes me think it actually might be a vaiable choice.
Good to hear.
Personally I am not a fan of either 1095 or D-2, can one make a usable short sword out of it, yes, but there are better materials IMHO.
JoeX did manage to break the Recon Tonto, but as we know he breaks almost everything. Real Sk-5 is good steel if not too hard as you point out...but the questions remain as to what steel CS using in some products recently.
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Post by mrstabby on Apr 9, 2024 16:11:53 GMT
I honestly see no reason to question it is "SK5", or at least very close, these steel patterns have huge margins of error as it is. The specification of carbon content has a difference between lower and upper limit of over 12%, for manganese it's 400%, that's some big wiggle room for a "classification". Also unless I see/know the machinery and method used for testing the constituent elements, I expect some bigger error in the percentages. Everything else except the carbon is in spec for AICHI SK5/SK85. In the end I am not mad a bit of difference for a relatively cheap knife, added phosphor or sulfur would be bad.
Also there are a lot of fakes for CS products on amazon, so unless you buy from a good source a fake is also an option.
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Post by howler on Apr 9, 2024 17:13:52 GMT
Nah, issues are resolved. He now has the stamp of approval from a judge, so he is safe unless something really unexpected happens. The videos were only private, he did that himself as precaution during the trial he said. They are all back now and new ones coming every few days.
I like the CS SK5, they are quite hard though. The Recon Tanto survived the same test where the SRK broke, so the SRK might actually have been a lemon (or too hard).
BTW I have seen him torture a few D2 knives, and they seem to break and chip, but not moreso than hard 1095. This plus that some Katana are made from D2 makes me think it actually might be a vaiable choice.
Good to hear.
Personally I am not a fan of either 1095 or D-2, can one make a usable short sword out of it, yes, but there are better materials IMHO.
JoeX did manage to break the Recon Tonto, but as we know he breaks almost everything. Real Sk-5 is good steel if not too hard as you point out...but the questions remain as to what steel CS using in some products recently.
I've watched all of JoeXs vids and find them both entertaining and informative, but that information MUST be understood as only a small sample of limited, skewed data points. For example, you can sometimes get a general idea of a particular examples toughness, and I purchased a Gerber Strongarm and Mora Robust because of his videos. I wish he would standardize his tests a little more, like stabbing similar two by four beams instead of different logs that are hard, dry, and new one day but punky, wet, and soft the next. And then you have to exert the same angle & level of force per whack, twist, stab. And when he is whacking, stabbing the car, one strike hits one material under the paint while another strike hits a completely different material. TOO MUCH VARIATION for real empirical analysis. And I get hitting a blade edge against a brick (El Bricko) or metal (the iron rod), as both could inadvertently happen in the field (though never repeated blows, over and over). However, A LOT of great knives looked bad because he would turn the blade over and whack the spine repeatedly against El Bricko and/or the iron rod. Nobody would ever do that in any situation EVER. But adding scientific controls may well make less compelling entertainment, so there's that. My advice is to use ones own common sense filter when viewing and enjoy the insanity.
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Post by izzy on Apr 9, 2024 17:53:15 GMT
I honestly see no reason to question it is "SK5", or at least very close, these steel patterns have huge margins of error as it is. The specification of carbon content has a difference between lower and upper limit of over 12%, for manganese it's 400%, that's some big wiggle room for a "classification". Also unless I see/know the machinery and method used for testing the constituent elements, I expect some bigger error in the percentages. Everything else except the carbon is in spec for AICHI SK5/SK85. In the end I am not mad a bit of difference for a relatively cheap knife, added phosphor or sulfur would be bad. Also there are a lot of fakes for CS products on amazon, so unless you buy from a good source a fake is also an option. Don't know why the link I posted is giving me issues...but here is page 1, special attention to page 2 and 4. "Bloodloss" claims he had a couple stamped Taiwan and used a spectrometer. Are they fake? Who knows but I doubt it....people who can get a spectrometer readout usually buy from a good source...but then again, no one can be 100% sure.
There is some overlap between the two steels for sure...Sk-5 should be between .8 to .9 % (max) percent Carbon, if it goes over that it's just not proper Sk-5. Whereas 1095 can go down to .9% Carbon all the way up to 1.03 ( so just about 1%)....If I was buying SK-5 from China I would be Darn sure they were a good mill and tried to keep things within spec. Preferably I would buy SK-5 from Japan, or a Japanese run mill if from China, but that's not to say there are not independents steel mills in China that don't make good steel, product batches need to be QC'd, that's all. To me seeing trace amounts of AL in the steel screams cheap steel.
If people are happy about that because the end product is inexpensive, what can I say except ho ahead and enjoy.
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Post by mrstabby on Apr 9, 2024 18:11:00 GMT
JoeX broke a Hultafors in SK5 as well, another survived, as howler said too much inaccuracies to really put everything on his results. And the CS SK5 is run harder than my Hultafors, there is that. I doubt it's the steel, it's just hard. And some processes, like using an electric arc to vaporize the sample (which I believe was done) is extremely easy to contaminate. Again, I would not hang too much weight on any of these results. Also it's one result, nobody should ever form an opinion on one result of any measurement.
I am 99% sure it's the heat treat not the steel.
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