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Post by takitam on Nov 4, 2023 18:36:10 GMT
I'm still not sure whether this is a good idea, but here goes: I want to ask collectors of modern quality swords - what is your take on custom scabbards (and - I cannot avoid it even if I would like to - their pricing)? This is something I have been seeing for several years, but a recent sword advert here prompted me to finally ask what others think. This is a picture from that thread: This is a scabbard by DBK. Let me get a few things out of the way - I understand that he is a modern master of his craft. I have seen some other works of his that definitely impress with quality, even if I sometimes don't appreciate the aesthetic (but a customer gets what he wishes ofc). I understand that there are not many competitors for this level of quality. I understand that craftsmen deserve to be paid well. I understand that you deserve to reap profits from a reputation you have built for yourself over many years. I understand there must be plenty of demand which allows the craftsman to raise prices to balance the amount of work and quality etc. Yet, I can see that the scabbard seems to be made from so called 'top grain leather' and not 'full grain leather'. Not something I find attractive. The way it is cut and stitched seems well done of course, but not something I would expect from a top quality product. The chape, although it definitely required some work to get around that cord, does not seem to be chamfered where it fits the leather, which seems to be the standard but it is something that bothers me. It is also simply a storage scabbard - which to me seems like the easier half of making a fully functional scabbard and suspension system. Integrating suspension into a scabbard requires not just work but also making sure that sword+scabbard wears and balances well. Not an easy thing to do. I have seen plenty of funnily hanging swords and scabbards. Storage scabbard can be made without having to consider any of this. Though I would prefer to only talk about quality of a product and leave price out of the way (after all, 'value' is relative not only to what you make as an individual but also to how much importance you put into a product), I can't help but to mention it. To get the elephant out of the room - this storage scabbard is supposedly worth $2200. I understand that this topic will seem in bad taste to some. I get it. Yet I feel that sometimes discussing slightly unpleasant things in a plain way is better than forced elegance that refuses to ever talk about something inconvenient. I don't feel confident enough to say how many hours this takes, but it is probably no too many for a skilled craftsman. For 20-30 dollars (assuming you already have some tools in your garage) in materials, almost everyone can attempt to make a storage scabbard. It will take talent, perseverance and many tries before you even get close to a master craftsman, but if you make an effort and learn before you try, even the first one can look and work ok. This is completely different that making of a sword, which requires plenty of big, loud and expensive machinery, not to mention knowledge and expertise. Please understand - I do not mean to undermine skill and experience. I have dabbled in making knife sheaths out of leather. It may be simple, but it is not easy. To make it easier to understand where I'm coming from. This is not just a rant from an internet nerd who has zero understanding of the subject. My experience with professionally made scabbards is very limited, but I do have some. I have one scabbard from Josh Davis. A craftsman who knows his trade. Very well made, well fitted with a well thought-out suspension and perfectly functional. And I bought it together with a sword For much less. Yet it looks to me that the scabbard I have is at least equal, if not better in terms of materials and craftsmanship. One last thing - I consider a quality sheath to be an essential part of a good knife, because we still carry and use knives. I would consider scabbards more essential if we carried swords more often. But we neither carry nor use them today (renfairs excluded) which is probably a good thing. TL;DR - I personally find there is little value in expensive custom scabbards, especially in comparison to swords. What is your take? Attachments:
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nddave
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Post by nddave on Nov 4, 2023 18:59:02 GMT
I guess my opinion would be much like a modern made sword a scabbard is art. In the sense that the value is in both the craftsmanship of the maker and appreciation of the owner/buyer. Kinda like paintings what makes the item valuable isn't necessarily the materials as much as the perception of the work and opinion on the person or people viewing it. And of course this can be subjective from person to person.
I mean what really is a painting aside from a canvas and some paint. So why are such items worth millions? Is it the artist? Is it the art work? Yes to both but then again those really are nothing without the reputation and popularity or prestige given by the people who view or or value it.
Same could be said for a custom scabbard. I mean in base form a scabbard has a job, to house a sword. If it meets this base criteria of its use and features asthetic flair that appeals to the owner/viewer than there is the perceived value. DBK Scabbards have a reputation of not only by sound and functional as scabbards but also have a level of detail and asthetic value that give the swords they house much more story and character than what simply only the sword could relay. A custom scabbard with colors, markings and other specific details not only does the sword benefit and become more attractive but the story the owner or artist wants to tell with the combination of sword and scabbard becomes that much more detailed and descriptive. Adding not only value but individual character to the art.
Much like how a painting can tell a story the more the artist puts into it. Maybe you notice the attention to detail, maybe you don't. But those that do will see a story unfold in a single image that even the minor details help detail.
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Post by pellius on Nov 4, 2023 19:05:50 GMT
Just mtc:
When I first got into swords, I could not justify spending another-sword money on a scabbard. Over time, that changed for me.
Regarding Euro repro’s, once I had all the nice swords I wanted (that I had space to safely store), I turned to acquiring nice scabbards for them.
Regarding 17-20th Century Euro antiques, I only get ones that come with a correct scabbard.
Katana and wakizashi seem to have well-defined parameters for a functional saya. I’m not a JSA guy, though, so I lack any real foundation for an opinion.
I’m basically just a beginner in CSA, but the scabbard seems pretty much irrelevant to sword use, and plays no formal part in sword fighting (that I’m aware of).
All the collegiate fencing swords I ever saw were simply stored with their blades in pvc tubes.
So I guess it depends on what is important to you.
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mrstabby
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Post by mrstabby on Nov 4, 2023 19:47:31 GMT
You don't pay for materials, you pay for work. Material cost for a woodcore leather scabbard would be 200$ max, but the work to engrave, colour and glueing the thing together, this will cost you the rest. The fewer people do something, the more their labour is worth, and scabbards are a specialized field. You could probably find 1000s of people who can do the leather, 1000s who could do the wood, but doing both to a high degree of artistry, how many can do this nowdays. I have thought of doing stuff like this for extra money, but after calculating ressource cost and time spent it's not worth it unless you ask a correspondingly high price (and my work is just not worth that price in my eyes). You can get anything I can make on amazon for like 1/10th the price I need to ask to get something out of it. Obviously some people are willing to invest a few thousand in a nicely made scabbard, but it takes 2-4 weeks to finish one scabbard according to someone on the forum I talked to, so you essentially pay a months wage to a person with a high degree of skill, so thinkig like this it's not really extraordinarily high price. You'd probably pay a mechanic a few thousand as well if he worked on your car 2-4 weeks.
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Post by glendon on Nov 4, 2023 22:56:39 GMT
It costs that much 'cause it took me sempriniing hours It costs that much 'cause I don't have super powers You must pay me for my skills, 'cause exposure doesn't pay my bills It costs that much 'cause it takes me sempriniing hours
I know you think my prices are negotiable But if you keep on questioning I will not be so sociable Feel free to walk away, but I know what my art is worth so hear me when I say:
It costs that much 'cause it took me years to master If you'd like you can try to do it faster But it will likely turn out semprini 'cause you simply haven't practiced it It costs that much 'cause it took me years to master
Since the dawn of art there have been people just like you Standing on the sidelines judging everything we do, and I know that you won't be the last But for everyone like you there are a thousand with more class
And it costs that much cause it took me sempriniing hours, Yes it costs that much cause it took me sempriniing hours.
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Post by eastman on Nov 4, 2023 23:09:12 GMT
scabbard making is a different art for than sword making. both require a lot of talent and time to master. Master-works cost serious $$$$.
If you don't feel that it is worth that much to you, spend your money on something else.
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Post by fivesidedpixels on Nov 5, 2023 0:44:11 GMT
To my understanding, scabbards can command a relatively high base price due to 95% of them being bespoke pieces. A smith can put out many swords according to a rough blueprint, but a scabbard maker must tailor each piece for every individual sword, for the best fit. Unless they're working on blades as consistent as Albions, new measurements are needed for every project. This hinders any attempts at mass production. It's like buying a made-to-measure suit vs. a suit off the rack. I think there's a historical precedent for high scabbard prices as well; swords with scabbards could be sold for more than twice as much as a sword without. Another factor might be the fact that there's very few people making scabbards as opposed to swords. When there's only, say, a dozen competitors in the field, everyone's pretty much free to set their prices as they wish. There isn't a large push towards creating better affordability while maintaining good profit margins. Scabbards seem to be in the realm of pure art pieces. Swords have certain metrics which help determine their value, many of which are related to function: edge retention, steel composition, balance, weight, etc. Scabbards are purely products made to look nice. When it comes to selling, I don't think anyone really talks about how well a scabbard functions. There's not really much to say besides whether it's a tight fit or not. Thus, when we judge scabbards, we're viewing them on aesthetic appeal alone. How pretty are these colors? How nice is this embossing? How clean is the stitching? How pleasing is the overall composition? It's mostly subjective qualities. Coming up with an objective price evaluation would be like trying to objectively price a painting. Which you can't, really, and that's a whole other can of worms. Do I seriously think a painting can cost $20k based off meaning and aesthetics alone? No. But I'm not even the target audience for that kind of thing, since I neither have $20k to burn, nor the tastes to judge it. Which brings me to my last point. This hobby is made up of very well-off people. Not necessarily rich people, but those who can reliably spend hundreds to thousands on the little things. People who can justify very, very expensive purchases. When this is your clientele, then as a craftsman, why wouldn't you price your wares for the highest bidder? If people are willing to pay 2,000 dollars for some wood and leather, why wouldn't you? Now then, for my personal opinion: there are overpriced scabbards. Even as an artist myself, I think there's such a thing as "too much". When a swordsmith like Damian Sulowski can sell an intricate scabbard AND an entire sword for just 2300 euros, I have to wonder what factors are at play here. Does all of eastern Europe exist in some bubble where time, labor, and materials are cheaper? I am not a swordsmith, woodworker, or leatherworker, so my opinion isn't worth much. But I do think there are overpriced scabbards. Just like overpriced swords, clothing, paintings, food, you name it.
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Post by Curtis_Louis on Nov 5, 2023 0:56:52 GMT
Based on one of the posts in this thread, it seems as if the entire thread could be in response to a disagreement or negotiation over a vendor's pricing. If so, the intent of this thread is dishonest and has an ulterior motive rather than simply a discussion on perceived value.
Regardless, the very nature of a thread like this has the potential to turn sour fast.
Here is the official warning. Keep the comments civil and within the forum rules. If this thread does indeed turn out to be devious in nature, then it will be taken down and the appropriate actions will be taken.
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Post by eastman on Nov 5, 2023 1:12:58 GMT
A custom scabbard needs to have both functional excellence and aesthetic excellence. A custom scabbard should not rattle. The sword should draw smoothly from the scabbard, yet be retained well. Great construction (both the materials and the assembly skill) will reduce the amount of change due to location/humidity.
The previous post used the examples of scabbards with Damian Sulowski's swords. I own two of them and will say they are excellent craftsmanship. Some day I will have a DBK scabbard made, and I expect it will be truly magnificent (I don't own the sword it will be crafted for yet).
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seth
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Post by seth on Nov 5, 2023 1:28:39 GMT
For me, I think scabbards complete the sword. I have been dabbling in making my own for cost reasons, and it takes a lot of time with a steep learning curve. It's not just one skill but a combination of several. Mine are simple affairs but the more complex ones that steam the wood, soak the leather, and do engraving I can see taking extraordinary amounts of time.
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Post by fester on Nov 5, 2023 1:54:36 GMT
The cost is worth what the buyer is willing to pay. DBK makes some of the best scabbards out there no question about it.
Having said that the price is not worth it to me personally
I am satisfied with a tods workshop Scabbard or a Christian Fletcher scabbard. They are also top notch. I have owned DBK scabbards in the past and the quality was outstanding. But the price is not for me at the current rate
But thats me.
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Post by larason2 on Nov 5, 2023 2:09:49 GMT
I think this is an interesting topic.
One thing I've noticed is that Chinese katanas are all made to actually pretty narrow design tolerances. As a result, almost all of them are at least minimally compatible with basically every saya, habaki, tsuba, seppa, and tsuka (which includes fuchi and kashira) that are also generally available from Chinese suppliers. In the case where they don't perfectly fit, there's lot of tricks they use to "make" them work (like the habaki I got recently that was siliconed in!). This is true irrespective of what forge you get it from. Basically they all decided to make essentially the same sword regardless of selected features so subsequent outfitting was easy. Even if you get a $3000 sword, it's just better quality fittings that are still perfectly interoperable.
Compare this with Nihonto, which have much greater variety of shapes and sizes, and practically none of their fittings are cross compatible (except tsubas that can be modified to fit). These were aways made with the assumption that practically every fitting would be custom made for the blade, and if you get one that's missing a fitting, good luck finding a replacement! It's actually easier a lot of the time to have one custom made, even though that's very expensive and time consuming.
For western blades, it seems like it's somewhere in between. You can get a cheap plastic "leather" sheath that doesn't fit great, or a PVC pipe/carboard box/some kind of paper or cloth contraption, but then there's a whole spectrum right up to custom makers who make work of art scabbards, and people who buy everything in between. Where there's a market, there's someone who's up for trying to make money off the demand.
Personally, for the blades I have that don't have a scabbard, I just carefully pack them in thick red felt, with tape to hold it together and paper to prevent the tape from touching the edge, then keep them in a cardboard box.
I have the skills to make custom scabbards for my swords (and all the materials!), but I haven't yet because I have other projects. If I had the money to order one, I probably would to save me the time! I would say different grains of leather are about aesthetics rather than function. There's different opinions about what's best, but they are just that, opinions. If you have the money and a scabbard maker doesn't make the aesthetic choices you would, then I would look for another one.
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Post by Lord Newport on Nov 5, 2023 2:35:10 GMT
If you don't feel that it is worth that much to you, spend your money on something else. ^^^^ As someone who owns two DBK scabbards, my advice mirror's eastman's above. No one has a "right" to someone else's work product and the OP is sounding a bit like one of those people. I am very happy with the DBK work product and appreciated the thoughtful and educational process with DBK to bring my visions to reality. Well worth the money to me but then again, it's all relative to your spot in the economy I guess. As for the OP's Josh Davis product, I suggest the OP ask Josh how he feels his work stacks up to DBK...And I would also ask the OP if he knows what Josh Davis charged for the scabbard new. Buying a scabbard with a sword second hand does NOT necessarily or even usually reflect the true cost of the scabbard.
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Post by Eric Bergeron on Nov 5, 2023 2:52:43 GMT
I think scabbards complete a sword and a sword without one just doesn't feel right. I've been collecting swords since 1996, I have handled different makers swords & scabbards all these years. That doesn't mean you have to have a scabbard for a sword or buy from a particular maker, me personally I have not owned or handled a scabbard by DBK but his work is amazing and it justifies the price, time and labor involved, there is a reason he has a 3+ year backlog. No one is forcing anyone to purchase anything, if you don't feel like a scabbard is worth that much, there are plenty other makers out there, could also learn to make one yourself as well.
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Post by alientude on Nov 5, 2023 3:05:51 GMT
I personally would rather you not use my photo to disparage Brian's work.
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LeMal
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Post by LeMal on Nov 5, 2023 3:16:06 GMT
I will never begrudge anyone for paying top dollar for craftsmanship on a scabbard and/or charging top dollar for their work on a scabbard. It's all in your individual call on value. I have a couple nice ones.
That said, do I overall give a rodent's posterior on scabbards? No.
Been collecting antiques and repros since 1980, and all a scabbard is to me IS something to safely and effectively carry a sword. (And which, depending on context, might just as well be a rifle case or such; or a storage rack in stationary.)
But then, why I be very romantic on scabbards--when, if it's in any way a viable weapon--I've never been on any sword? :p
If--or rather when--you're willing to pay someone's asking price, do it. When you're not, don't. Doesn't seem that complicated to me.
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ghost
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Post by ghost on Nov 5, 2023 5:40:59 GMT
this particular scabbard seems a bit simple, but his other works are clearly fit for royalty. I think Brian recently mention he has a 3 yr wait list? I do think he sits currently as the best bestoke scabbard maker.
His work is highly sought after by discerning collectors and the plain scabbard hints at what he may charge $/hr ...and perhaps has gone up already
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Greg E
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Post by Greg E on Nov 5, 2023 14:21:02 GMT
I have a certain view of my weapons in the context of history. I picture the weapons I own and the clothing and kit I use and wear to be that of the 'every-man'. The foot soldier, the mostly successful farmer pressed into service. So the scabbards that I have commissioned and the latest ones I have made, tend to be on the less flashy and decorated side. I own a Christian Fletcher scabbard that is mostly unremarkable as it is not decorated at all, and the suspension system was very basic and I added a bit to it as it was too tame. So I am not in danger of ever trying to commission a scabbard that costs in the multiple thousands and takes years to have in my hand. But, this is only because I don't overly desire them and do not have a sword worthy of that kind of craftsmanship. I have Albions mostly. But do I think those high end scabbards are beautiful? Hell yes. I frequently show my wife pictures of DBKs scabbards and marvel at the work being displayed. Would I own one if found second hand on a sword I want... sure. Could I afford it as a ensemble with a high end sword... wife says no. LOL I am in my 50s and my hobbies are still fairly transitory and ebb and flow. I am having a hard time with having money tied up in a sword commission with a custom smith who, like a lot of them, doesn't respond to questions and misses stated time frames, it is in the 17 month length so far. It has soured me about smiths and other craftsmen who are turned off by communication in this day and age, not saying any of the scabbard makers are like this. So I will think I will stay a second hand WTS forum sniper. Good day.
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Post by takitam on Nov 5, 2023 14:38:15 GMT
Thank you everyone for making an effort to present your views. Lots of varied opinions here. I believe this variety is more educational than simply stating: 'If you want it, buy it. If you don't want it, don't buy it' I feel that some of what I wrote in my op was misinterpreted, but this seems inevitable in communication and I have grown to understand and accept it.
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Post by ragebot on Nov 5, 2023 15:55:48 GMT
Just some random thoughts. European swords don't seem to need the same level of functionality in a scabbard as something like a katana. A large part of Kendo is taking a katana out of the scabbard/saya and putting it back in while European swords' scabbards are basically something to keep the blade from taking damage and not accidentally cut bystanders. It is fairly easy to buy some decent leather on Amazon, draw a rough pattern on the leather using the sword as a template, cut the two patterns out and rivet them together creating a functional if basic scabbard; something I have done even with my limited skill set. On the other hand drilling holes and stitching the two patterns together requires more time and effort and I am not sure it is more functional than rivets. While I do have tools to hand tool patterns in leather (I bought a kit of Amazon) as well as dye for leather I have not yet ventured into that area. As an aside my last trip to Mexico I bought a hand tooled leather belt and belt loop holster for my Ruger Vaquero fast draw pistol for just over $US100; so there is definitely a price difference between first world countries and third world countries (try looking at fast draw belt loop holster price points in the US).
For me the bottom line is first what type of functionality you are looking from scabbard and second how much of a wall hanger look do you want your scabbard to have. I have seen some beautiful wood internals with multi color dyed leather scabbards and prices to match but for my purposes all I am looking for is something to store my swords safely and transport them to where I do backyard cutting.
YMMV
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