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Post by kirinblade on Oct 21, 2023 4:54:43 GMT
Morning all, just wondering how to deal with this.
I just received a brand new Motohara from Jason at Evolution Blades, and it's got a spot of rust under the habaki that incidentally made it extremely difficult to remove. I've been wondering how to get rid of it, and when I contacted Jason, he said that toothpaste and WD40 should work, and otherwise not to worry if there's rust as long as it's just under the habaki.
I've given it some elbow grease with a toothbrush, toothpaste, and WD40. I also took a soft scourer and even in desperation some steel wool, although lightly and not much. Please see the pictures below and advise if possible!
Also, if this is in the wrong forum, please let me know!
Freshly disassembled:
With the habaki just taken off, notice the remains of oil and the trails from the removal of the habaki.
After the oil is wiped off, taking away the worst of the rust (red bit), leaving the black bits that look to have etched into the metal.
The cleaning tools.
Current status of the blade.
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Post by mrstabby on Oct 21, 2023 7:20:36 GMT
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Post by kirinblade on Oct 21, 2023 22:31:36 GMT
Hmm, I wonder if I have some EDTA at work... Where I used to, I did, not sure about my current place. Not sure if I have agar though, I'm assuming just gelatin would do?
That said, I have a lemon tree in the backyard, and (diluted) citric acid is in plentiful supply. If I peel one, squeeze out the juice, and soak the peel in said juice and use it to scrub the blade, would that work?
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Post by mrstabby on Oct 22, 2023 7:40:41 GMT
Hmm, I wonder if I have some EDTA at work... Where I used to, I did, not sure about my current place. Not sure if I have agar though, I'm assuming just gelatin would do?
That said, I have a lemon tree in the backyard, and (diluted) citric acid is in plentiful supply. If I peel one, squeeze out the juice, and soak the peel in said juice and use it to scrub the blade, would that work?
I am not sure about gelatin, was wondering myself if it would work. I don't kmow but gelatin might be more agressive or make stains, you'd really have to test it on some carbon steel before using it on the sword.
I personally use crystallized citric acid sold for cooking, very cheap and available almost anywhere. A lemon should work, but don't dilute it, you need a pretty stout solution (you can get stronger solutions with the powdered acid than a lemon will have, so it will take a bit longer with lemonjuice). Lemons have other chemicals, but it should work. Always be careful, and the lemon juice will probably need more cleaning after because it is moe sticky (sugars), but since the blade is dismounted you can clean it easily. If you use the lemon juice, maybe wash the blade after you are finished with dishsoap and water. Then wipe it dry, clean it with alcohol and re-oil.
I am interested what you do, how the lemon does etc, please show pictures.
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Post by Lancelot Chan on Oct 22, 2023 8:37:44 GMT
I've a student stupid enough to use citric acid on his rusty katana. Almost killed the sword outright, along wit the sheath that become acidic.
From the internet:
What does citric acid do to rust? (It is a powder that mixes with liquid.) At this level of concentration, sure, citric acid can remove rust, but it is also harmful to the metal below the rust, (not to mention if it has paint on it) in addition to to your skin, nails, and other materials that come into contact with it.
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Post by mrstabby on Oct 22, 2023 8:46:32 GMT
I've a student stupid enough to use citric acid on his rusty katana. Almost killed the sword outright, along wit the sheath that become acidic. From the internet: What does citric acid do to rust? (It is a powder that mixes with liquid.) At this level of concentration, sure, citric acid can remove rust, but it is also harmful to the metal below the rust, (not to mention if it has paint on it) in addition to to your skin, nails, and other materials that come into contact with it. Only when you don't clean it off enough or leave it on too long. It's also not strong enough to hurt your skin unless you have cuts (which will hurt but not really damage you) or have really long term exposure (in the realm of 20 minutes continued contact). Eyes are a different matter, getting it in the eyes is bad of course and should be washed with clean water for 10 minutes and go to hospital. You should wear latex gloves though, because the acid sticks tenaciously to skin and you can track the acid around even after washing the hands.
Every rust removal method will also attack the underlying metal, even EDTA. Steel wool? Will also take off metal. If you just wipe the sword with acid and put oil on it, yeah, that's bad, but you can clean off the acid with a few wipes of clean water. Also, soap being basic will neutralize any acid left.
A few minutes work. To get the deeper stuff might take an additional 10. before washing off oil
after washing after acid I could get a lackmus strip, but after washing with soap, there isn't acid left, I tasted. I'll keep it unoiled on my monitors foot, but I'd bet the cleaned section won't grow bigger than the rusted.
EDIT2: This is rust pitting left on my Gale Wind Jian a few months after I removed the rust with acid. It hasn't changed or re-rusted yet.
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Post by toddstratton1 on Oct 23, 2023 20:04:32 GMT
Flitz works very well to remove surface level rust. It looks like you got the active rust off the sword already though, the remaining coloration won't harm the sword.
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Post by zsg1313 on Oct 23, 2023 21:05:56 GMT
Sorry if anyone already mentioned it but clean the inside of the habaki. Some residue probably caused the issue in the first place.
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Post by kirinblade on Oct 24, 2023 8:20:14 GMT
Thanks all for the recommendations! I will be attempting some fixes later on in the week, but it hurts me to put acid on the blade. Fingers crossed something good comes out of it!
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Post by mrstabby on Oct 24, 2023 9:09:47 GMT
Thanks all for the recommendations! I will be attempting some fixes later on in the week, but it hurts me to put acid on the blade. Fingers crossed something good comes out of it! zsg1313 is very right, I forgot there is a collar (habaki? not knowledgable with nihonto to be honest). It could be something is stuck on the inside. Even if it's oly rust residue it will invite more rust later, so very good tip to clean it as well. About the acid, if you really want to be sure the acid is gone, do the following after you are done: Wipe/rinse with clean water, use baking soda (which will neutralize the acid), wipe/rinse off the soda (maybe add a bit of dish soap to the water), then wipe everything dry, clean with alcohol then reapply oil. Be careful, don't leave the acid on, even if it feels like it is removing nothing. Rather get a new cloth or try a new clean spot on the cloth and keep rubbing. If the acid is left on too long, you will get a red haze over the area, but you can polish it off rather easily. And even if it sounds like a good idea to leave some part around the area you are working on oil covered to protect it, don't. The acid and oil will make a milky finish, which is not easy to remove. If you feel you take too long just wipe the area with fresh water every few minutes, might not wipe all acid off but dilute the acid and the dilute acid takes hours to make anything happen on bare steel. Really concentrated acid (like warm water that can't take any more in) will thake 5-10 minutes to begin red haze to form, depending on steel. You could try it on something else first, so it dapens your anxiety because you know what you are working with. Anxious people make more mistakes. My first rust removal ended up in me having to refinish the whole blade because I wasn't patient enough...
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Post by larason2 on Oct 24, 2023 13:58:31 GMT
I would stop now. Black rust will not continue to damage the blade, and there's no red rust left. Even professional togishi will leave small rust spots if removing them will ruin a blade. The spot will be covered by the habaki anyway. Any more work will remove more metal.
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Post by jyamada on Oct 24, 2023 17:54:31 GMT
I would stop now. Black rust will not continue to damage the blade, and there's no red rust left. Even professional togishi will leave small rust spots if removing them will ruin a blade. The spot will be covered by the habaki anyway. Any more work will remove more metal. This.
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kaiyo
Member
Posts: 1,201
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Post by kaiyo on Oct 24, 2023 23:19:56 GMT
You should return this sword asap, rust is an issue and Evolution Blades should deal with this, specially at this price point. Dont understand why they not offered a return right away. Honestly i would be pretty pissed if they recommended to do it myself and tellme not to worry because its "just under the habaki". Failed customer support.
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Post by kirinblade on Oct 28, 2023 8:53:15 GMT
After contemplating on it, I decided to not do anything and contact Jason and see what he can do about it. I don't want to do anything too painful to the blade (acid, etc) in case I have to return it. Let's see what happens!
For reference, I am not a practitioner. I'm more of a collector, and I specifically mentioned to Jason that I was looking for a "heirloom" sword that was more for aesthetics than use, although naturally I do want it to be a functional piece. You may have noticed I asked for more than a few custom details on the koshirae. For a blade that would be for display with the koshirae both mounted and unmounted, the pitting was very discomforting, especially since it's on the same side of the blade as the mei.
I hope I'll be able to come to a satisfactory conclusion, but given I'm located in Australia and shipping and customs is going to take a very heavy toll (not to mention currency conversions), it's highly likely one of us is going to go to bed with a frown.
Wish me luck!
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kaiyo
Member
Posts: 1,201
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Post by kaiyo on Oct 28, 2023 10:22:15 GMT
If they really care about their customers, they should at least pay for shipping cause its clearly an issue with the blade.
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Post by larason2 on Oct 28, 2023 16:25:25 GMT
As an amateur togishi, I can tell you that all of the finishes applied to a blade make use of acid in one way or another. My experience is that most Chinese makers use acid etches to accomplish their finish, with a different one for the white effect vs. the effect that brings out hada. Looking at your blade, I'm pretty certain it was acid etched. However, the finishing stones used by togishi are also acidic, so in a way they are similar. If you use an acid to try to remove rust, then for sure that section will end up finished differently than the rest of the blade. Rusted spots also develop pits, so they are not perfectly smooth. This is all to say that if you want to remove that, you'll need to repolish and refinish that spot, and unless you're the guys who did it originally, it's not going to look the same (and you run the risk of ruining it). It only rusted there because they left some acid on that spot, and it was obviously the acid for the blade segment of the finish.
So I agree with the general gist - send it back!
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Post by mrstabby on Oct 28, 2023 16:33:31 GMT
Well, I need to revise my statement and need to agree with everyone saying to send it back. I didn't get you recieved it directly from the factory, sorry. Don't let them pressure you, they might refuse at first, but it is only right you get what you payed for.
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Post by crazyjons on Oct 28, 2023 16:37:51 GMT
I know it's not ideal under the Habaki but I would personally be excited to watch the gradual patintation of the nakago. Love the black oxide look of antique originals and thoughts of what hands touched a blade in the past.
Jon
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kaiyo
Member
Posts: 1,201
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Post by kaiyo on Oct 28, 2023 19:43:48 GMT
btw keep the customs ppw and document that this very sword will be sent back and repaired/replaced, that way you will not be charged again with custom taxes/fees
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Post by kirinblade on Oct 28, 2023 23:32:28 GMT
Jason has agreed to a return, so I will be having to do some research as to how to send things like this out internationally. Never actually sent a package overseas, let alone a return, so will be an interesting bit of checking!
Thanks all!
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