|
Post by BryanW on Jan 23, 2024 17:14:54 GMT
To the OP: As it's been a few months since the last post, I'm curious what happened in the end for this and how Motohara's customer support handled it ultimately. I assume no new is good news (vs no news being no news)?
|
|
|
Post by kirinblade on Jan 25, 2024 5:03:49 GMT
What a coincidence, I was just coming back here to post an update! So Motohara agreed to a return as stated, and I just received the repaired sword a couple of weeks ago. Unfortunately, there were a few things happening. First of all, as I plan on using the sword mostly for display (which was the whole reason I disassembled it in the first place, I doubt a practitioner would have noticed the rust under the habaki since they would be using the sword for cutting, not necessarily breaking it down to admire it), Jason advised that he would instruct the smith to send the sword to me completely disassembled. However, when I received it, the habaki (and ONLY the habaki) was attached. Everything else was in a separate bag. As with the first time, the habaki was stuck on fast, and could not be removed by hand. My only other experience with katana has been a Hanbon Forge katana where the habaki could be removed by hand easily, but I have no real reference as to whether or not it should be doable on other katana. I took a video of my attempting to remove it by both hand and tapping gently on a small block of wood, neither of which worked to remove the habaki. This time I was quick to communicate with Jason and on his advice, let WD-40 soak into the gaps between the habaki and blade, then used a larger piece of wood to finally tap the habaki out. Unfortunately, even after returning the blade, there was still evidence of rust starting up again. Nowhere near as bad as when I first received it, but still an alarming sign for a blade that I assume was custom forged for me. I took pictures and videos of me attempting to fit the habaki back on, and it just wouldn't go on by hand either (I'd probably need to tap it in with a block of wood, or perhaps the tsuka itself). Furthermore, the inside of the habaki looked quite rough and not silver like the material it should've been made out of. In fact, removing the habaki caused scratches on the nakago, which is never a good sign. Jason sent me a video of a blade he claimed to be mine, which looked spotlessly clean and exactly what I wanted. Jason advised on using Pikal metal polish cream from Japan, which I did order, but at this point I don't want to risk further damage to the habaki (which wax already damaged from my first attempt to remove it when I first received it) and the blade (which was scratched when I removed the habaki this time). Jason has agreed to another return for the blade, with a high potential to just make a new sword for me. I'm currently away from my computer proper so I don't have any images as of now, I will upload them when I get home for reference. Note the damage to the outside of the habaki, as well as the condition of the inside. At this point, I don't know what's going on. Is there something weird happening in the transit between Korea and Australia? Was the habaki made of contaminated alloys that caused corrosion? Was the blade not custom forged for me and was an old one sitting around somewhere? Why was the habaki not removed when sent to me the second time? It wasn't because it was used to hold the blade in the sheath, the blade came separately wrapped and taped to a cardboard backing. A lot of unanswered questions, but at this point I'm mostly glad that I haven't been ghosted completely. On that account, I can't fault Jason's replies, and he's been suitably accommodating. All shipping for the returns thus far have been covered by him. I'm hopeful for a happy ending!
Edit:: A ton of images, so I'm just gonna put a link to an Imgur album here. I've added some captions/descriptions to some of the images, so enjoy!
|
|
|
Post by larason2 on Jan 25, 2024 16:12:30 GMT
I think the problem is the acid wash, then the environment the sword encountered during shipping. They probably redid the polish/wash, but they must not be in the habit of effectively neutralizing the blade properly before putting on the fittings. They should have left the habaki off, and it should have been filed on the inside (sounds like a new habaki). When I work with acids, I either run water for a long time, or neutralize with a baking soda mix before putting things together. It's too bad they messed it up again! This is one of the hazards of acid based polishes though.
|
|
|
Post by kirinblade on Feb 2, 2024 13:02:12 GMT
Minor update: I have shipped the sword back to Jason, but when I informed him that I've done so, he asked me what exactly I wanted him to do with it. Please note that I am not an experienced sword owner, and am not a practitioner or even a regular cutter. My primary love of swords is in functional beauty, something that is for display 90% of the time but can be used as a tool without any loss of function. My reply was that I would like him to assemble and disassemble the blade and see if he had any trouble with it. I would also like him to inspect the blade and compare it with the initial video he sent me to see if there was any degradation in the blade. He then asked whether I had trouble assembling the sword, to which I replied with this: Video LinkHe then said that it was completely normal for the habaki to be extremely tight and that it was due to his intended use of the swords for cutting. "If anything is get loose, it is not great from a practitioner point of view", which I guess is true? I then asked him if it was normal for removal of a habaki to scratch the nakago: To which he replied "Of course". I then asked if it was normal for the inside of the habaki to be rough and dirty: To which he replied that they use a coating to make the habaki stay tight, something that I did not know of before. At this point there's a serious bit of passive aggressiveness going on about how I am not a proper cutter or practitioner because they would value anything that would result in better cutting (tight, non-rattly fittings), but he will do as the customer wishes. It's also somewhat deviating from the original issue I had with the whole sword which is: It arrived rusty. Thus far, he has not once answered why the blade rusted. I have now flat out just asked "Why did the blade rust?" and will see how he responds. At the moment, the sword is still in transit and has not arrived at its destination.
|
|
|
Post by larason2 on Feb 3, 2024 1:41:57 GMT
It's true you want a habaki fairly tight, particularly if you're going to use it. Most of my Nihonto have loose habakis though from polishing without replacing the habaki. A loose habaki can jingle when you use it, if you intend to use it, and will loosen with cuts, and can affect adhesion of the nakago to the tsuka. For a display piece though, it doesn't matter. Personally, I wouldn't worry about the nakago getting scratched up. I guess if it's a display piece, you want it as perfect as possible, but things get scratched up. Some people replace their hardwood floors regularly, but some just put up with the scratches. I think the scratches are evidence of use. Over time, the nakago will rust up, and the scratches will become invisible. You can even patinate the nakago if you want it to look like a nihonto, using the traditional Japanese iron patina recipe (which you can get from Jim Kelso's website).
Whenever I get a new longquan sword, my first act is to work over all the rough patches. The habakis get filed, polished and traditionally patinated. The nakago also gets newly filed. They almost always send the nakagos sharp, and I don't want to cut myself on the nakago or habaki, particularly if I'm going to spend hours polishing. The Japanese carefully file the nakago so it looks pristine, but Longquan nakagos are usually pretty rough when I get them. Since I'm never going to display the sword, it isn't worth my time to give the nakago an aesthetic filing. The filing work on yours is pretty darn nice for a Korean/Chinese sword.
I don't think he's implying you're not a proper cutter or practitioner. Most people buy a sword for only one purpose. If it's for display, they don't cut with it unless they're ok with displaying it with scratches. Cutting dulls and scratches it, there's no way around it. Most of us have are cutters (which are rough!), and our display pieces. I'm not going to cut with a blade I spent 70 hours polishing!
I'd say just get them to polish up the nakago and send it back to you with the habaki off. Before you put the habaki back on, carefully file the inside with a jewellery file. Shouldn't give you any trouble after that.
|
|
|
Post by miraculix101 on Feb 3, 2024 16:41:10 GMT
Well to my small knowledge, you should could demount a katana without much force, so to say without damaging the habaki
|
|
|
Post by Cottontail Customs on Feb 10, 2024 23:43:15 GMT
I thought I'd add my 2 cents. first off, please don't use a steel hammer when assembling/disassembling the sword, use a rawhide or rubber mallet instead. secondly, the way you're applying pressure to the habaki, toward the blade edge... one slip and it could be fingers on the floor time. I would refrain from doing it like this for obvious reasons. I'm not sure how much research you did before ordering your Motohara but I'm curious if you knew they were highly specialized cutting swords, typically recommended for experienced practitioners. they do offer nice koshirae and fittings but pretty much everything about these swords is geared and fine tuned for performance. sure, they can also look pretty on a shelf but there are certain things you should expect in a product like this, including some that you already experienced. on a perfectly made nihonto meant for display, the habaki would likely be very easy to slide on and off, usually with fittings and construction made to within micro tolerances to fit perfectly. owning a high end, finely tuned sword and using it to cut with means a lot of owner care and maintenance will be required to keep it running well, so to speak. fittings will need adjustments, mekugi will need to be changed, the wood of the core, compacts over time, the meatal fittings loosen, it's completely understandable considering the force of impact generated from each cut. for those buying and using a sword meant specifically for high volume use, having some things tighter than average is a good thing that will help save you time and effort. the habaki sliding on and off easily, the tsuka doing the same, the tsuba, the seppa, etc., these aren't necessarily things you need or want when you're cutting often. none of this excuses active rust however, that's something nobody wants on a sword, especially such a pricey one. that being said, once the rust is neutralized and if it hasn't spread or dug too deeply into the steel and if it's also on the nakago and completely hidden, it's really not that big of a deal, imo. patina is something that is supposed to build up on the nakago, just take a look at some antique nihonto, unless the nakago was cleaned (which you shouldn't do anyway), they will all be dark brown/black looking from the patina, which is stabilized/controlled rust basically. actually, the Japanese did this on purpose to many of their iron fittings since it's an excellent way to keep the items from rusting and taking damage. anyway, I guess my main point is, you bought a super specialized functional cutter, meant to cut with, so yes, there will be some things you wouldn't expect on a custom made nihonto showpiece. it's also obviously beautiful as well so you got the best of both worlds really. I think if Jason is able to make sure it won't rust again and cause further damage, the rest is really up to you, to learn more about katana maintenance, the correct tools needed and the proper techniques to keep you and your sword safe. good luck and enjoy your new sword
|
|
|
Post by kirinblade on Feb 17, 2024 14:57:37 GMT
Yes, I think overall it was just a misunderstanding on my part as to what I was ordering versus what I would get. I was under the impression that Motohara katana were the equivalent of Albion European swords, the best of the best reproduction swords, one step below customs. People buy Albions for both display and use (not necessarily both at the same time), and they're equally proficient at both.
I didn't take into account that Motohara is not quite that, they're more specialized into practicality. How I more or less see it now (which is oversimplifying things by a country mile) is that while Albion could be described as function being equivalent to form (as reproduction swords based on historical examples of blades actually used in battle), Motohara prioritizes function over form (less emphasis on historical accuracy and willing to take liberties to make a better functioning sword). Not that they're ugly or anything, it's more a matter of priority?
To me, one of the big things about katana is that they are completely dismountable, down to the bare blade. Until now, I had no reason to believe that Motohara was any different, and I suppose that's still true because you can dismount them, it's just not something that you do for artistic and admiration purposes.
I did know that Motohara targets high level practitioners and competitive cutters, but I also did speak to Jason over the phone and tell him that I was after a piece that could also serve as an heirloom piece, and was mostly for collection reasons albeit with some light cutting if I ever felt like it. Knowing so, he didn't recommend things like mat cutter geometry, and went with a heavy niku blade, so I figured he knew what I was going for, which doesn't seem to have been the case?
---
Overall though, this thread was initially motivated by one issue, and a second issue that arose from trying to solve the first issue.
1) The first issue is, naturally, the active rust. It's still a mystery as to what could've caused the rust, but Jason has actually told me that he's seen it on his own personal swords as well and that he just didn't personally care much about it. Matthew Jensen has also made a video on another Motohara that has a similar issue (albeit along the edge of the blade not under the habaki or on the nakago, video from 8 month's ago for a chap named Carlo), so based off a very small sample set, it seems there is an definitely an issue somewhere.
As you said, Cottontail, rust (or more accurately a patina) is not uncommon in older swords, however my limited understanding is that it's usually the nakago up to where the habaki would be that would be patina'd, and the part covered by the habaki up to the tip of the blade would usually be where any polishing would be done. In my case, the rust was under the habaki, beyond the tsuba, and I did not think this would be normal. Is this another misunderstanding on my part?
The other thing that gets to me about the rust is that well, this is a premium product that is one step below being custom. I mean, I'm assuming the blade is actually made to order based off dimensions supplied by either the customer or Jason's experience, and I asked for custom mon on some of the parts too. It's like buying a brand new car and finding the seats inside have mold on them or there's scratches on the paint or the windscreen's chipped, and the dealer telling you "Don't worry about it, the car still runs fine". I'd certainly be annoyed if I bought a new Range Rover and that happens.
2) The second issue came up when trying to deal with the first issue: The lack of direct answers in Jason's dealings with me. For instance, I did not know that he used a "coating" to help tighten up the habaki until I showed him the picture above and asked him if it was normal for the habaki to look like that. Previously any mention of the habaki being difficult to remove or looking pitted and not clean on the inside were treated simply as if it were normal or ignored. I would not have used so much excessive force if I had known there was more than just friction and the tsuka keeping the habaki on, and been more careful.
As mentioned earlier on in the thread, on the sword's first return to me, he mentioned that the sword would be completely disassembled for the shipping. However, when I received it, the habaki was attached, which due to the above I now know is because of the coating Motohara uses. However, he has never directly addressed why the habaki was attached, simply saying that I could remove it if I wanted to. Granted, I didn't actually ask him directly, I just brought up that it came attached to him twice, but then was more focused on removing it.
Furthermore, most likely because none of us know where the rust came from, he avoided mentioning and possible source of the rust until I asked him flat out why it was rusted, at which point he admitted he didn't know. And honestly, he didn't and still hasn't apologized for there being rust in the first place, which I guess is because as mentioned above, he doesn't see it as a big deal from a practitioner standpoint.
Given the sword was shipped to me directly from Korea for the return and I still saw rust spots beginning to form under the habaki again, I'm honestly somewhat suspicious of the coating, and wondering if there's some kind of chemical reaction happening between the habaki, the coating, and the blade. Or maybe some moisture was trapped in there and did its oxidization thing. The first time I got the sword it went from Korea to New York, then to Australia, which may have given time for more rust to form.
---
Ultimately, my current understanding of the situation is that it's basically a communication or misunderstanding situation. I am a collector, Jason is a practitioner, and our priorities are different. I see disassembling a katana as a chance to admire the bare blade and intricacies of the furnishing, to appreciate art. Jason sees disassembling a katana as a means to an end: To tighten up fittings and prevent rattling of parts after heavy use. I see active rust as a danger both aesthetically and functionally compromising the blade, while Jason doesn't seem to think it's a big deal.
In any case, the sword is now in Jason's hands, and I will see what he will do with it. At this point in time I am honestly debating asking for a full refund and eat the customs tax, but given that I DID damage the habaki I don't think that's entirely fair, and Jason has at least been accommodating enough to cover all postage.
It probably seems like a lot of whining and fuss over a relatively small thing, but dangit that was one EXPENSIVE sword! I could've gotten a few Albions or a Maciej for that...
|
|
|
Post by larason2 on Feb 17, 2024 17:31:50 GMT
The rust was definitely from the acid used to etch the sword. Unless you neutralize with baking soda, there's going to be some acid left on it. I get that all the time polishing a sword traditionally that was previously acid etched. When you get into the acid layer, the area you're polishing suddenly gets very nicely etched with minimal effort. I know when I see that it's time to wash off the blade with plenty of water! Then it behaves closer to what it should.
I think what's gone on is reasonable, and your desire to display it with no furniture is reasonable. If a sword blade is hand polished, it is eminently displayable with no furniture, and if the furniture is hand made for it, it shouldn't scratch it. I wouldn't use such a sword, but it should be usable!
|
|
|
Post by Cottontail Customs on Feb 19, 2024 2:24:13 GMT
Yes, I think overall it was just a misunderstanding on my part as to what I was ordering versus what I would get. I was under the impression that Motohara katana were the equivalent of Albion European swords, the best of the best reproduction swords, one step below customs. People buy Albions for both display and use (not necessarily both at the same time), and they're equally proficient at both. I didn't take into account that Motohara is not quite that, they're more specialized into practicality. How I more or less see it now (which is oversimplifying things by a country mile) is that while Albion could be described as function being equivalent to form (as reproduction swords based on historical examples of blades actually used in battle), Motohara prioritizes function over form (less emphasis on historical accuracy and willing to take liberties to make a better functioning sword). Not that they're ugly or anything, it's more a matter of priority? To me, one of the big things about katana is that they are completely dismountable, down to the bare blade. Until now, I had no reason to believe that Motohara was any different, and I suppose that's still true because you can dismount them, it's just not something that you do for artistic and admiration purposes. I did know that Motohara targets high level practitioners and competitive cutters, but I also did speak to Jason over the phone and tell him that I was after a piece that could also serve as an heirloom piece, and was mostly for collection reasons albeit with some light cutting if I ever felt like it. Knowing so, he didn't recommend things like mat cutter geometry, and went with a heavy niku blade, so I figured he knew what I was going for, which doesn't seem to have been the case? --- Overall though, this thread was initially motivated by one issue, and a second issue that arose from trying to solve the first issue. 1) The first issue is, naturally, the active rust. It's still a mystery as to what could've caused the rust, but Jason has actually told me that he's seen it on his own personal swords as well and that he just didn't personally care much about it. Matthew Jensen has also made a video on another Motohara that has a similar issue (albeit along the edge of the blade not under the habaki or on the nakago, video from 8 month's ago for a chap named Carlo), so based off a very small sample set, it seems there is an definitely an issue somewhere. As you said, Cottontail, rust (or more accurately a patina) is not uncommon in older swords, however my limited understanding is that it's usually the nakago up to where the habaki would be that would be patina'd, and the part covered by the habaki up to the tip of the blade would usually be where any polishing would be done. In my case, the rust was under the habaki, beyond the tsuba, and I did not think this would be normal. Is this another misunderstanding on my part? The other thing that gets to me about the rust is that well, this is a premium product that is one step below being custom. I mean, I'm assuming the blade is actually made to order based off dimensions supplied by either the customer or Jason's experience, and I asked for custom mon on some of the parts too. It's like buying a brand new car and finding the seats inside have mold on them or there's scratches on the paint or the windscreen's chipped, and the dealer telling you "Don't worry about it, the car still runs fine". I'd certainly be annoyed if I bought a new Range Rover and that happens. 2) The second issue came up when trying to deal with the first issue: The lack of direct answers in Jason's dealings with me. For instance, I did not know that he used a "coating" to help tighten up the habaki until I showed him the picture above and asked him if it was normal for the habaki to look like that. Previously any mention of the habaki being difficult to remove or looking pitted and not clean on the inside were treated simply as if it were normal or ignored. I would not have used so much excessive force if I had known there was more than just friction and the tsuka keeping the habaki on, and been more careful. As mentioned earlier on in the thread, on the sword's first return to me, he mentioned that the sword would be completely disassembled for the shipping. However, when I received it, the habaki was attached, which due to the above I now know is because of the coating Motohara uses. However, he has never directly addressed why the habaki was attached, simply saying that I could remove it if I wanted to. Granted, I didn't actually ask him directly, I just brought up that it came attached to him twice, but then was more focused on removing it. Furthermore, most likely because none of us know where the rust came from, he avoided mentioning and possible source of the rust until I asked him flat out why it was rusted, at which point he admitted he didn't know. And honestly, he didn't and still hasn't apologized for there being rust in the first place, which I guess is because as mentioned above, he doesn't see it as a big deal from a practitioner standpoint. Given the sword was shipped to me directly from Korea for the return and I still saw rust spots beginning to form under the habaki again, I'm honestly somewhat suspicious of the coating, and wondering if there's some kind of chemical reaction happening between the habaki, the coating, and the blade. Or maybe some moisture was trapped in there and did its oxidization thing. The first time I got the sword it went from Korea to New York, then to Australia, which may have given time for more rust to form. --- Ultimately, my current understanding of the situation is that it's basically a communication or misunderstanding situation. I am a collector, Jason is a practitioner, and our priorities are different. I see disassembling a katana as a chance to admire the bare blade and intricacies of the furnishing, to appreciate art. Jason sees disassembling a katana as a means to an end: To tighten up fittings and prevent rattling of parts after heavy use. I see active rust as a danger both aesthetically and functionally compromising the blade, while Jason doesn't seem to think it's a big deal. In any case, the sword is now in Jason's hands, and I will see what he will do with it. At this point in time I am honestly debating asking for a full refund and eat the customs tax, but given that I DID damage the habaki I don't think that's entirely fair, and Jason has at least been accommodating enough to cover all postage. It probably seems like a lot of whining and fuss over a relatively small thing, but dangit that was one EXPENSIVE sword! I could've gotten a few Albions or a Maciej for that... As I said, the rust is inexcusable. period. if it's the coating that's causing the problem or something else, they need to figure this out and fix it. whether one person or many don't care about active rust anywhere on the katana, it should not be there and there's not much more to say on that. as for your personal interaction with the owner, I can't comment and I guess you'll have to make decisions about how to deal with that based on what you think is best. also, as I mentioned, while a newly made or well taken care of nihonto showpiece might assemble and disassemble with ease, any sword used regularly for cutting, no matter the price, will eventually and always need maintenance of some kind. again, the fittings like habaki are often made of soft metals like copper or silver and through constant impact will possibly become deformed to some extent. just a little deformation can cause these fittings to become loose. the wooden core will compress and areas like the mekugi-ana will become slightly larger so mekugi can be looser and need to be replaced. fuchi and kashira might become looser too, same for the tsuba and seppa. samegawa will eventually shrink, causing gaps. you rarely see any evidence of this in the movies or tv since standard katana maintenance is boring to watch and takes away from the legendary reputation of these "indestructible" and sacred weapons. even in many reviews you won't see this being discussed since it can take time before the maintenance routines need to be started. believe me, any traditionally made katana will start to loosen and rattle over time with use if not maintained properly. this again is why an owner needs to learn how to maintain their swords and this then becomes owner responsibility. Motohara, while they might be put together a little tighter than average, are no different for the most part and are not immune to needing maintenance. having to do even slightly less maintenance because some fittings are super tight would likely be a bonus to most Motohara users, at least it sounds more practical to me. so other than the rust and some possible difficulty communicating with the owner, I don't see anything out of the norm for a sword of this type. tight fittings on a performance sword shouldn't be a negative imho and I understand you made it's purpose clear before buying but you're still picking from a brand known for making performance based swords that were designed for use. kind of like complaining about a rougher ride when you buy an ORV, though you only keep it parked in the garage. or something like that anyway. I do hope you can get this straightened out and have the rust issue fixed.
|
|