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Post by pax on Oct 7, 2023 19:16:10 GMT
Hi all, Can anyone identify this dagger? Can you tell who made it by the markings? Is it authentic or a replica?
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Post by mrstabby on Oct 7, 2023 19:42:08 GMT
I do not think it is authentic medieval, the pommel seems stick welded on. There also are what looks to be some weld spray/beads on the pommel. As who made it, I can't say, can you tell us where you got it?
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Post by pax on Oct 7, 2023 20:41:42 GMT
Hi, These are not welding points but more like flattened pins. I got it in a flea market in France.
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Post by pax on Oct 7, 2023 20:50:03 GMT
From my experience with old daggers and bayonets (not medieval)this thing must be over 100 yrs old.
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Post by larason2 on Oct 7, 2023 23:13:22 GMT
I agree the metal is old, like 100 years, but the leather on the hilt looks like it was made last week! Not medieval though, probably one of those victorian copies of old swords that's just been rehilted.
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Post by eastman on Oct 8, 2023 0:16:47 GMT
the (reversed C)C maker's mark seems familiar, but I can't recall who used it. Makes me think late 1980s.
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Post by crazyjons on Oct 8, 2023 3:35:54 GMT
The fourth picture down those are absolutely welds on the pommel, both sides.
I know it doesn't mean that the blade isn't an antique but just the proportions of it remind me of stuff made in Pakistan.
Jon
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tera
Moderator
Posts: 1,662
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Post by tera on Oct 8, 2023 5:17:56 GMT
Looks like welds and fresh leather to me, too. Those could be recent repairs, though. Still researching the markings.
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Post by pax on Oct 8, 2023 14:38:59 GMT
The key is in the makers mark. The pictures are low quality because of forum limitations. The leather and string are very old and the wellding spots on the pommel(if that is what they are) are recent and in complete contrast to the quality of this item.
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Post by pax on Oct 8, 2023 14:40:26 GMT
Looks like welds and fresh leather to me, too. Those could be recent repairs, though. Still researching the markings. Any luck?
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Post by pellius on Oct 8, 2023 14:40:52 GMT
Pax, welcome to the forum
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Post by pax on Oct 8, 2023 17:45:06 GMT
Thanks for the information and the warm welcome! Attachments:
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Post by mrstabby on Oct 8, 2023 18:11:39 GMT
In my opinion probably not an Avis Cross. Looks more like 2 crescents or "C"s and 2 dots (the dots seem too deep to mean nothing) to me.
Like this?
Unfortunately even if it has provenence, it has been bubba'd hard...
Can you see inside the leather wrap a bit maybe? I'd be interested hot the inside looks. From one picture it seems there are two rounded plates on either side of the tang which the pommel is welded to. Is the Crossguard connected to this as well or how is it held in place?
EDIT: Oh, and for better image quality you can use an external file link as well. There are many free image hosting sites. Also you could try taking the photos in sunlight or under a better light source. Using the flash is tricky with shiny metal, you need a less focused but strong light source.
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Post by pax on Oct 8, 2023 20:03:06 GMT
Hi, The crossguard extends all the way to the pommel on both sides. In the middle there is a hollow space in which the blade extends , also all the way to the pommel. The pommel base is "hugged" on both sides By the crossguard extentions and the blade extention goes inside the pommel. See attached drawing & picture.
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Post by Sir Thorfinn on Oct 9, 2023 14:06:32 GMT
Without seeing it in person, this has very modern indicators. Also, you don't have any stats on it. Length, weight etc.
1. Incredibly clumsy construction. No one builds knives this way, for a reason. It looks like someone's garage project. 2. The blade may be old, and possibly the hilt as well. But you can see weld beads that were not ground out from spot welding. (flattened pins? That do WHAT may I ask?) 3. The leather is fairly new, as it shows areas where it was recently cut. If this had any wear or handling, over time, these would be hidden. 4. The pommel is the most confusing. The very odd crimp method is confusing. Also the pommel looks like a dresser pull knob. 5. welding strips to the hilt and extending them to the pommel would add significant weight. And it just wasn't done historically.
I would be interested to see the leather cut off to determine what is inside the handle. What is filling the obvious voids?
Does anyone else see the tip of this as maybe being a salvaged broken sword with a reground tip?
But being generous, I would say someone was fooling around with an old(ish) sword and broke it, and did the work to make it somewhat usable again.
Whatever you paid, it was too much. I'm sure it could be made far nicer, but that would be serious work.
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Post by pax on Oct 9, 2023 14:54:36 GMT
Hi,
I have vast experience with old daggers and swords (not medieval). Relying on my experience, I can comfortably say that there are many indications to suggest that this item, besides being a beautiful dagger, is probably medieval (despite the protests). It is far better built than many of the very expensive modern replicas. Moreover, it probably has an intriguing past. I want to ask the last person who replied: why are you so angry? Do you really think that I will destroy this dagger just to satisfy your curiosity? I also think that you clearly did not understand how this dagger was constructed. As for the weight and length, they are surprisingly similar to authentic medieval museum daggers. And don't worry, this item cost far less than contemporary historically insignificant items. And since you touched on this point (pun intended), it was bought for peanuts in a small village in rural France alongside other authentic edged weapons.
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Post by mrstabby on Oct 9, 2023 16:26:17 GMT
Does anyone else see the tip of this as maybe being a salvaged broken sword with a reground tip?
Yeah, I thought that as well, the fuller seems uneven and I can't really tell if it was reshaped or produced that way. You could maybe tell from a good sideways picture.
The leather is very shotty workmanship. The edges aren't sealed or burnished. Also the stitch looks like it was done very quickly and rough, with that thread I can't imagine it feeling nice to hold. And you are right, the edges and stitch holes look pretty new (not older than a few years, decades max). If the leather isn't hard and feels like it would crack it for sure is less than 100 years old (from looks I'd say ~50 years)
EDIT: weird, the leathers pommel side edge looks "newer" than the others or the stitching.
Pommel also looks crooked. I hadn't figured out what I saw in it, but yeah, drawer knob. Not that it couldn't have been made by someone.
I do have a question here, how often did the blade go wholly through the guard on historical pieces? I have never seen this before.
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Post by pax on Oct 9, 2023 17:00:28 GMT
Hi, Weight: 496 grams Length: 40 cm Attachments:
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Post by mrstabby on Oct 9, 2023 17:29:47 GMT
Where is the point of balance?
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Post by pax on Oct 9, 2023 17:33:45 GMT
Exactly on the crossguard. Attachments:
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