|
Post by squirrel502 on May 18, 2023 23:04:51 GMT
Oh what have I done
So today...after watching some videos....I decided to "try" and sharpen my Albion Crecy using my hapstone pro system. Sword was clamped. everything supported. and proceeded to work the edge at a 22deg angle. working...working...working. Still not finding a bur. Working....F' it...lets see this thing. Take it outa the clamp...and yeah. semprini looks like total Ass.
/cry
And thats why ladies and gentleman...if you dont know what your doing...leave it to the professionals. Now I just need to find one have have the sword shipped out to un-bugger my blade
|
|
|
Post by alientude on May 18, 2023 23:13:08 GMT
I would contact Albion directly to ask them if they can fix it.
|
|
|
Post by Sir Thorfinn on May 19, 2023 1:17:23 GMT
Voltan does sharpening as well
|
|
|
Post by takitam on May 19, 2023 10:06:16 GMT
All right, I'm going to try to put a lot of basic info into a very short post, so pardon the crude form please You will have to learn all of this through practice. It is not possible to learn a skill like sharpening through observing other people. Learn the basics from watching and listening to others but first and foremost - practice! Try to practice on cheaper and more disposable blades first. Start with knives, swords are a lot more difficult to sharpen. Forget about systems. They are lame for sharpening, only somehow decent for reprofiling. Learn freehand sharpening, it's a lot more valuable skill. On both stones (small in hand, big ones on the table) and sandpaper/strops (in hand and on the table as well). Two different techniques. Two different edges as well - V and convex. Once you have the basic skills with knives, you will be ready to improvise with swords. Also learn to reprofile your knives to shallower angles (12' to 15' per side) on both sandpaper and stones. You will be surprised how much better they cut. And for how much longer as well, but only if they are thin behind the edge. My 'controversial' opinion - forget about forming a 'burr' on purpose on one side before moving to the other. (It removes too much metal which is almost always unnecessary and shortens the life of your knife, especially if you use systems). Use not more than several passes on one side before moving to the other e.g. 4 left, 4 rigth -> 3 left, 3 right ->2 ->1 and keep doing 1. Most important thing here is to use the right grit for the job. Do not move to higher grits too fast. Learn to feel the blade and use the right amount of pressure. If it shaves equally on both sides after a low grit stone or paper, like 220 or 320, you are doing well. Learning to reprofile a blade can help you with sharpening. If you want to fix the polish on a sword, buy a pad with a foam surface for polishing metal, which lets you clamp sandpaper on the bottom. That requires putting your blade in a vise (use leather, cloth, paper to protect the blade from pressure), with good support along its length and polishing the whole blade. When polishing, only move one way, from the hilt to the tip. It gives you much more even finish. Pros can disregard this advice for speed Care not to blunt the tip. If you don't use your sword, this is where you stop. It will be sharp enough to cut printer paper but not sharp enough to cut cloth well etc. Keep in mind that repolishing the whole blade is A LOT of work. Yet it is the only way to restore a great looking polish to your sword. Next thing, if you use your swords for cutting, you will want to put a final diamond stone micromicro bevel on it. And this is where you will mar the beautiful finish (only a tiny bit when you do it well, like Albion's secondary bevel). Cutting will destroy the finish anyway. 22' per side is a very steep angle, around 15' depending on the sword's factory grind is much better. When sharpening by hand you will automatically create a slight convex edge, not a V type. If you have done any work with your sword before, you will have a much better feeling for the right angle. You don't have to sharpen the whole length of the blade this way, the final one third will suffice. Last point, using a stone for final sharpening is only something you should do on a sword when its already fully convexed and polished. Otherwise - well you will discover the frustration yourself or maybe you already have Even if a sword looks evenly ground, like an Albion, it most like isn't in any way perfect. This sharpening will leave some slight marks on the very edge. It's worth doing if you use your sword for cutting and it is something you will have to do from time to time. Last but not least - sharpening/reprofiling is an essential skill if you are into knives or swords. It's actually the most important one. Through reprofiling and sharpening you also make the blade truly yours. However foolishly it sounds, it is kind of important to build this connection with your tool. It brings a better understanding and this is always a good thing to have.
|
|
|
Post by mrstabby on May 19, 2023 11:35:45 GMT
I use a strong flashlight and shine it on the edge when I almost get it finished, you can see glintig on the spots that aren't sharp yet (a 5W flashlight shows more defects than sun btw). That way I don't need to have a burr to know it is apexed. I use a USB microscope sometimes to check (Yes, I am going too far, i know), they are pretty cheap. For sharpening training you can try cutter blades, they are at the very least OK carbon steel and feel very much like a sword when sharpening, stainless steel is much nastier to sharpen than carbon in my experience (staring with intense loathing at S90v). And they are cheap and easy to come by. For hard reprofiling I use a belt sander, but you shouldn't rush it and cool the blade, because if it gets straw coloured, its bad, if its blue you most likely killed the heat treat. With a belt you automatically get a appleseed and then you only need to go the last micrometres with stone or sandpaper (I also get a more constant finish, a more straight edge than making it all by hand, but that's just my experience).
|
|
|
Post by squirrel502 on May 19, 2023 12:21:36 GMT
So I am good with knives....but the issue is that the Albion has a convex edge "which I have zero experience with"...and I was attacking it like I would a standard knife...and reprofiling it to a beveled edge. What I was not expecting was how "high" the bevel would have to be...and how it would look afterwards.
As for practice on a "cheaper" blade....its sad to say, but the Albion is my least expensive blade. And while I do have a machete for yard work...it does have a convex grind...so it wouldn't have been any good to work on. Likewise, not looking at buying a beater just to experiment on. But I did take Alientudes advice and shot an email to Albion. With any luck they can correct my screwup via re-grinding/re-profiling the blade. The question will just come down to "how much will this cost".
|
|
|
Post by takitam on May 19, 2023 13:22:13 GMT
It's up to you to decide whether to do it yourself or send it to Albion. If you decide to send it, why not use it as an opportunity to experiment a bit first? The damage is already done I mentioned polishing in the post above. To make it clearer what tool you can use to do it by hand, this is similar to what I use. You can cut the sandpaper yourself and start from any grit from 80-240 and finish anywhere between 400-2000. This will not reprofile the main bevel, only polish it (and remove scratches), but can be used to modify the edge bevel to a certain degree, keeping the convex profile. Again, to do it fully takes several hours and a lot of work. One has to be careful at all times! images.obi.pl/product/PL/1273x777/417059_1.jpgThe pad at the bottom is quite soft and will conform to blade profile. If you really know what edge you want to have on your sword and your Albion is too thick behind the edge, you can use a metal file before you do the polish. This requires more determination and experience as you can easily make serious mistakes which will be unfixable, just like on a belt grinder. Mike from Albion told me that edges on their swords can vary quite a bit in thickness, depending on who the grinder is. I have a strong preference for thinner edges as they cut much better.
|
|
pgandy
Moderator
Senior Forumite
Posts: 10,296
|
Post by pgandy on May 19, 2023 13:53:02 GMT
Oh! I feel for you. There are countless posts in this forum regarding sharpening, some good others are not to my liking. I’d say the first rule is not to entirely trust any machine. Learn to sharpen first and then possibly use a machine to assist after learning. LEARN FIRST. A skilled craftsman can make anything seem simple, especially propaganda from a merchant trying to sell you his product. Overall takitam’s post is something to take a note of. Here’s my idea to sharpen for a beginner and from there to branch out. There is no single rule applicable to all swords. The compressible backing will allow you to maintain a complex curve. But learn first on inexpensive blades, not on an Albion as I’m sure you now know.
Sandpaper is my all-around favourite although I would surely miss my Work Sharp KO. I can do things with sandpaper that I can’t with the WS. There is a technique that I recommend with the sandpaper that isn’t etched in stone and as you get into it no doubt, you’ll find your preferred method in time. Most new people starting out will tend to use paper too fine making more work for themselves. Do not use your fingers as a backing. Get a smooth and spacious as possible work space. I use a compressible material between the backing and the paper such as a mouse pad. Not all are the same so choose. This will allow the paper to follow the contours of the blade. I’d start with 220 grit using a light lubricant on all your papers. I prefer WD-40. Keep a roll of paper towels nearby. If possible, I prefer moving the blade on the paper but in some cases it’s best to move the paper on the blade. Push the blade edgewise back and forth until it’s sharp and has the contour that I want, such as convex, focusing on the edge. You’ll be able to get it copy paper sharp with the 220. Once you have achieved your desired edge it becomes polishing time. Move on to the next finer paper and this time change the angle of your strokes. For example, if you had been pushing the edge 90° to the paper now go 30° until you have removed all of the marks from the 220. Once done, continue to move on to the next finer paper changing the angle again. Changing the angle will tell you when you have satisfactory removed all traces of the previous paper. Continue doing so until you are satisfied with the polish. I usually stop at 400 or 600, but some people prefer a mirror finish. Do this on your day off possibly with your favourite music in the background. Once you have become familiar with the above method you will no doubt modify to suit. The above is not etched into stone and I find that I alter it as necessary to better suit the blade I’m working on at the time. If possible, I disassembly the sword. Working with a bare blade is much easier. Here’s wishing you all the success you hope for and good luck. Sharpening is a skill that all blade owners need and will reward you many times.
|
|
|
Post by mrstabby on May 19, 2023 14:02:21 GMT
I use a sanding paper holder like takitam shows, the underside material is the same rubber as is used in mouse pads. There are a few different models and they are cheap. You can get this rubber in sheets of differing thickness, so you could make a softer or harder backing too.
I am quite sure that buying a cheap carbon steel machete and training on it is cheaper than any professional sharpening service repair.
By the way, I wouldn't use a knife sharpener like hapstone pro, the angle of the wetstone on its swivel makes it hard to get something nice on longer blades unless you do like 5cm increments and then move the blade. I am not really good with freehand stones on knives and use something like yours. But on a sword it just works better freehand, and the soft backed sanding paper holders are better than stones.
EDIT: There is a post somewhere here where someone built a device like the knife sharpener but bigger. What also works is using a long board. Put the paper on onne end, lay the other a bit higher on some wood planks, then you can use the plank as a guide.
EDIT2: Ah, here.
|
|
|
Post by Lord Newport on May 20, 2023 15:55:55 GMT
So I am good with knives....but the issue is that the Albion has a convex edge "which I have zero experience with"...and I was attacking it like I would a standard knife...and reprofiling it to a beveled edge. What I was not expecting was how "high" the bevel would have to be...and how it would look afterwards. As for practice on a "cheaper" blade....its sad to say, but the Albion is my least expensive blade. And while I do have a machete for yard work...it does have a convex grind...so it wouldn't have been any good to work on. Likewise, not looking at buying a beater just to experiment on. But I did take Alientudes advice and shot an email to Albion. With any luck they can correct my screwup via re-grinding/re-profiling the blade. The question will just come down to "how much will this cost". Given that this Albion Crecy is your least expensive blade, it should not even be an issue for you money wise right? Your Crecy was not sharp enough? Albion usually puts a very good and correct edge on its blades. Were you trying to put a knife edge on a sword? There is LOTS of research and discussion on proper sharpness of various types of swords just a google search away. A super sharp "knife edge" was not as far as I can tell, historically correct on most European medieval swords.
|
|
|
Post by mrstabby on May 20, 2023 17:06:05 GMT
You don't need the sword to be shaving sharp to cut people. For tatami and bottles on the other hand you need it to be very sharp. I'd say it depends what you want to do with it. You can easily flatten out a appleseed/convex into a straight bevel without losing too much material, but I imagine he might have gone too flat with it. You would need to begin in the middle of the hump, if you begin too far to the inner edge you will end up with something akin to a 10° bevel.
|
|
|
Post by takitam on May 20, 2023 20:46:17 GMT
Do you need a sword to be shaving sharp to cut through even basic fabric armour? I say you definitely do. Yet even this is not simple. If you make it shaving sharp through stropping and achieve a very polished edge, it may not cut fabric that well. When you finish the cutting edge on a lower grit diamond sharpener, it will bite much easier into cloth thanks to micro serrations. An easy experiment, which I encourage every sword owner to try - get a heavy bolster type pillow and dress it with your old cotton jacket. Try cutting it with your swords. Be sure to try both chopping and drawing motions. Don't forget thrusting as well Results may be different from your expectations and quite eye-opening. I know they were for me. There is also no such thing as a 'knife edge' in general. There is a lot more variety in knife edges than in sword edges. I have seen Albions that are very thin behind the edge, thinner than a lot of knives, and some that are almost too thick. I have seen worse - axe like, blunt impact type edge geometry, on a sword from Maciej Kopciuch, that was advertised as sharp. It doesn't necessarily depend on a type of sword but on the person who grinds it. Constructing a solid sword that looks historically accurate is something a lot of makers do well. Spending many more hours on things like edge geometry, which is invisible in pictures and impossible to feel in handling, is something rarer and I think that the knowledge of it is not common among sword makers, both custom and production. Fortunately, Albion is still the best I have seen when it comes to edge geometry. But you may get a sword that needs some fixing and care here and there. Like with all production companies, there is variety even within a single model. Anyway, squirrel502, I hope you use this as a learning opportunity and report back to us once you find a solution to your issue, no matter what it is. IMO, you have made an important first step towards learning more about swords.
|
|
|
Post by mrstabby on May 21, 2023 7:29:07 GMT
I didn't mean shaving sharp, I meant like a straight razor with 5° bevels, sorry, I thought I had changed the comment. Technically there isn't a knife edg, thats true, I'd still differentiate between an edge I'd put on something for purely cutting, and an edge for chopping. Most of my EDC knives have a bevel of around 12°, I wouldn't want that on a sword, probably fold over instantly when it hits something harder. For a knife it works. I'd say you can get almost any edge to shaving, but the angle matters. I have 2 20cm/10" knifes, one has a 35° angle from the factory, shaves without any problem but bottles just jump away with an indent on the outside.. The second has 17ish degrees and does not shave, but it cuts bottles, no resistance.
|
|
|
Post by takitam on May 21, 2023 9:51:03 GMT
MrStabby, I have no doubt that you have lots of experience with cutting based on all your posts I have read. I agree with everything you wrote in your last post. My previous posts here were aimed at sharing what I have learned with anyone who is interested in experimenting themselves.
There is plenty of material online and in TV that shapes our common imagination about how swords cut. Sometimes this imagination is very far from reality. I made some effort to try to change this. If one or two people learn from it, that would be great.
|
|
|
Post by mrstabby on May 21, 2023 10:02:12 GMT
There is plenty of material online and in TV that shapes our common imagination about how swords cut. Sometimes this imagination is very far from reality. I made some effort to try to change this. If one or two people learn from it, that would be great. Very true. Like Katanas can cut steel and medieval swords were nothing more than a pointy flat piece of metal. Both could be as sharp as the other. I don't know why the thought that european swords were blunt appeared. Like the saying goes: Don't believe everything you see on TV, or the Internet for that matter. You have to find out what works for you in the end. I for example can't use water stones. Bad experiences all around. Others can get super nasty edges with them. Diamond stones or sandpaper work best for me. I also wouldn't be able to sharpen anything free hand, always need some kind of guide rail.
|
|
|
Post by scatterg on May 21, 2023 14:11:04 GMT
My goal is to maintain the existing edge, as they are working fine for slicing the thin plastic gallon milk jugs. I have been gathering the needed supplies: Dan Whetstone Hard (fine) Arkansas 8” stone, sandpaper 400-3000. I do have an inexpensive dsa sword to practice on first, will maintain a Valiant Armory myself (it has the imported blade), but my Albion will most likely send it in when it needs maintenance.
My plan is wood-vice the sword to a table, use a wooden guide for the angle, with just a few passes on each side to refresh the edge.
I was thinking of using just the stone for this, but now maybe I will just go sandpaper with a rubber block.
|
|
|
Post by mrstabby on May 21, 2023 15:09:39 GMT
My goal is to maintain the existing edge, as they are working fine for slicing the thin plastic gallon milk jugs. I have been gathering the needed supplies: Dan Whetstone Hard (fine) Arkansas 8” stone, sandpaper 400-3000. I do have an inexpensive dsa sword to practice on first, will maintain a Valiant Armory myself (it has the imported blade), but my Albion will most likely send it in when it needs maintenance. My plan is wood-vice the sword to a table, use a wooden guide for the angle, with just a few passes on each side to refresh the edge. I was thinking of using just the stone for this, but now maybe I will just go sandpaper with a rubber block. If there is a convex edge on it, maintaining it will be easier with sandpaper and rubber, or velcro sandpaper. With a stone you need do move a bit to follow the contour, the rubber will do that for you a bit. Use a permanent marker, like a sharpie, to colour the entire edge, this way you can see if you are taking off material from the right places. Just try out all methods and see what you find works best. When you have marker left on the blade you can get it off with alcohol, acetone or paint thinner. I think WD40 woorks too.
|
|
|
Post by squirrel502 on May 22, 2023 13:20:14 GMT
So good news. Albion reached out to me, and let me know that they can provide that "morning after pill" following the buggering of my Crecy for $75-$150. But now I am left with a bit of a delema. Should I just leave everything "factory" sharp...or buy something cheap to just practice with. I know that some might say to just buy a machete...but I have one, and it isn't convex. And buying something cheap...apart from practice...will leave me with something cheap in the closet.
I guess this is just first world problems
|
|
|
Post by Lord Newport on May 22, 2023 13:37:33 GMT
So good news. Albion reached out to me, and let me know that they can provide that "morning after pill" following the buggering of my Crecy for $75-$150. But now I am left with a bit of a delema. Should I just leave everything "factory" sharp...or buy something cheap to just practice with. I know that some might say to just buy a machete...but I have one, and it isn't convex. And buying something cheap...apart from practice...will leave me with something cheap in the closet. I guess this is just first world problems The question is do you want to practice with an approximation of a historical European sword or do you just want something sharp to cut with? And then there is always going to a Japanese style sword if your goal is "cutting" tatami.
|
|
|
Post by mrstabby on May 22, 2023 14:09:37 GMT
If it's cutting power you're after I can really recommend chinese Oxtail Dao. Best cutter I have. Chinese Willow Leaf Dao also exist and are a copy of Katanas. Sabres should work great too (but I have no comparasion, since I don't own any)
If you are worried about having a cheap blade in a closet somewhere, you could either go for some cheap sword you like or just sell it after. There are Windlass swords for under 100$. Most windlass come blunt though, so you will have to invest much time in sharpening. You might even grow to like it after you put hours of sharpening into it. You could also go for a chep machete. You can get rid of blades rather quickly if you don't intend to sell them for profit.
|
|