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Post by karatehottie93 on May 16, 2023 13:23:15 GMT
I recently impulse bought one of these after the seller sent me an offer of $125. It looks like a good wall hanger. It's one of those mass produced Pakistan pattern welded swords. I found the exact same sword in a couple of places on Etsy too and everyone that's bought it seems to like it. It should be at least functional enough to not fly apart and take out my neighbors air mattress or some random kid down the street. I know this particular sword isn't a longsword. It says the blades is 28 inches but the whole description has been copy/pasted. It's own listing even contradicts itself several times. Most places have it listed at 30 inches. Even then, I know that's not longsword lengths. It's obviously not a "Viking Sword". Pretty sure cheap Pakistan sellers use that as slang for anything "Damascus" though. Sorry...I'm rambling. The entire point to this post was to ask about leaf blade swords that are longer than say, 25 inches? Is this historically correct in any way? I know a few Celtic leaf blade swords of similar length have been found, but none with grips longer than a few inches. There's not much out there about this online...I guess because no examples exist. I have a hard time understanding why when literally everything has been made by someone at some point or another. Is it really just that poor of a concept? Was armor just so much better by the time longer swords became common that leaf blades simply didn't provide any advantage anymore? www.ebay.com/itm/204255460398?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=du_soyepqra&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=SLaUBqp7TBm&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY
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Post by pellius on May 16, 2023 13:35:49 GMT
I’m just curious; how much does yours weigh?
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Post by mrstabby on May 16, 2023 14:08:59 GMT
I think it's that the targets got better armored, so the cutting heavy leaf shape was less preferable than the straight or needle type blades, because the leaf blades waist section will be less strong and the point is less good at penetrating. I bet it had something to do with weakness on the narrowing waist of the blade, you have to keep in mind the metalls back then wasn't very homogeneous, so their stability will vary greatly. The leaf might also put to much weight up front and make it to unwieldy to use. Blades seem to become more specialized as the blades got longer. Curved blades for cutting, straight blades for stabbing. Weight wise I'd say it would be heavy. I have a few pakistani made blades (shorter ones) and they are quite heavy for their size.
EDIT: The sword you linked does not look that leafy on the pictures to me, more straight-edged. Does it look more pronounced in person?
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Post by karatehottie93 on May 16, 2023 14:57:21 GMT
I’m just curious; how much does yours weigh? I haven’t actually gotten mine yet so was just going off the reviews I can find across all the random sites that have it listed. I can’t find any information about weight…only that it’s “well balanced”. I have no idea what to expect, other than that it should be at least somewhat functional. Speaking of function, I messaged several sellers asking about the tang beforehand. All the ones that got back to me assured me the sword and tang were one piece, and that’s it’s not welded on like a lot of the knives. I’m really hoping that’s true.
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Post by karatehottie93 on May 16, 2023 15:01:27 GMT
I’m just curious; how much does yours weigh? I haven’t actually gotten mine yet so was just going off the reviews I can find across all the random sites that have it listed. I can’t find any information about weight…only that it’s “well balanced”. I have no idea what to expect, other than that it should be at least somewhat functional. Thanks for the input. Still waiting on mine. Just got curious about longer leaf blades swords after find out they never actually seemed to be a real thing. I’m just starting to really get into swords. I can’t find any medieval swords with similar blade shapes so I figured this would be considered a leaf blade. Here’s another listing for what looks to be the same sword, but on Etsy and with way more pictures. I’m assuming it’s the same sword as this guy from “AU” has the same catalog as every Pakistan seller. www.etsy.com/listing/1037328630/custom-handmade-damascus-steel-vikingsActually after reading more reviews, it ships from Pakistan despite saying AU. I guess that confirms my suspicions. Worst case scenario it at least looks really cool.
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Post by mrstabby on May 16, 2023 15:18:30 GMT
They all seem to come from the same place, all damascus blades made in pakistan look like they are from the same factory, as I said I have a few smaller ones.
I am quite sure there were such swords, but they aren't common. It's also less work to make and sharpen something with a straight edge, so there might also be an economic component to why they were not made later on. Some swords got a bit of a leafy shape to them because the were resharpened after they were damaged.
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Post by pellius on May 16, 2023 17:11:46 GMT
Regarding historical leaf-bladed fighting swords, I don’t know one way or the other in the Medieval era, but they were definitely a thing in the early modern era. Behold, the Swedish Hafström type leaf blades: sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/54394/swedish-m1842-47-pallasch?page=1They are decent in the hand, though not particularly well suited for stabbing from horseback or fencing on foot. They look absolutely stunning, though; to my eye anyway. I’m a big fan of the style.
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Post by mrstabby on May 16, 2023 17:18:27 GMT
I thought leaf blade refers to xiphos style double edged weapons? I always thought of the ones you show as sabres.
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Post by pellius on May 16, 2023 17:21:42 GMT
I thought leaf blade refers to xiphos style double edged weapons? I always thought of the ones you show as sabres. Fair enough.
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Post by mrstabby on May 16, 2023 17:29:17 GMT
Thats what I meant, they became more specialized. No longer a symmetrical leaf, but something with a thick spine that would be a very strong cutter, sacrificing a second edge and stabbing potential to be the best performing cutters.
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2023 17:49:09 GMT
It's an interesting sword and the proportions aren't bad, but I would hesitate due to how slim the grip is because to me, this suggests a rat tail tang. If not, the width of the grip would suggest a very narrow tang. As a costume sword or a fun to carefully swing around sword, it should be fine. I'm just one of those that worries about the tang. I probably need mental help -
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Post by mrstabby on May 16, 2023 18:03:08 GMT
From what I have seen it will be not 100% functional, and the rattail tang is very probable, because all of mine have it. It will probably also be frontheavy (thick blade, no distal taper, small pommel). It will surely not survive much abuse!
I have seen a review of mine where he cracked open the grip and the tail was a round 5mm rod that came from the blade, not sure if it was one piece or welded.
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Post by karatehottie93 on May 16, 2023 18:11:55 GMT
It's an interesting sword and the proportions aren't bad, but I would hesitate due to how slim the grip is because to me, this suggests a rat tail tang. If not, the width of the grip would suggest a very narrow tang. As a costume sword or a fun to carefully swing around sword, it should be fine. I'm just one of those that worries about the tang. I probably need mental help - Yeah I'm wondering about it. I was told it didn't have a welded on tang but I'm skeptical. Edit: Here's a video I found of them making a very similar (if not exactly the same) blade. It had a rat tail. There's enough of the tang left before they actually rat tail it though that I'm not too worried...again assuming that mine is made this way, and assuming that the weld is good. They didn't show a heat treat so that looks a bit concerning. All the descriptions for this sword mention it being heat treated though but you know how these Pakistan knife makers are. Then again that's a ton of work to not heat treat it. As long as the handle holds up though, it should be fine for wall hanging and cutting water bottles at least, I hope. It's kinda depressing too because the way they mass produced such beautiful pattern welded blades is amazing. Obviously they acid etch it to make the patterns pop out but still. If they would offer some more premium options for actual use it would be pretty cool.
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2023 18:54:14 GMT
I'll try and make this not too wordy. I recently watched a video on one of the Chinese larger workshops, a long room, maybe twenty small identical forges down one wall and a row of identical grinder and buffers across the aisle. There were hundreds of steel blanks leaning up against the wall. A blank goes into a machine that cuts the corners off one end to become the tip. Then using the forge, tip is rounded off and then bevels are hammered and then ground and then dipped to temper. Then the blade is polished.
Here is the kicker. Next, it is dropped into a press, all but about a quarter of an inch of the tang is lopped off, a small mechanical arm comes out holding a treaded rod which is held in place in the center of the cut off tang and spot welded. It is then dropped into a barrel with many others ready for a hilt.
It was like watching a horror movie -
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Post by karatehottie93 on May 16, 2023 19:00:46 GMT
I'll try and make this not too wordy. I recently watched a video on one of the Chinese larger workshops, a long room, maybe twenty small identical forges down one wall and a row of identical grinder and buffers across the aisle. There were hundreds of steel blanks leaning up against the wall. A blank goes into a machine that cuts the corners off one end to become the tip. Then using the forge, tip is rounded off and then bevels are hammered and then ground and then dipped to temper. Then the blade is polished. Here is the kicker. Next, it is dropped into a press, all but about a quarter of an inch of the tang is lopped off, a small mechanical arm comes out holding a treaded rod which is held in place in the center of the cut off tang and spot welded. It is then dropped into a barrel with many others ready for a hilt. It was like watching a horror movie - That's ironic because I also ordered a cheap Chinese katana as a wall hanger. It was scheduled for delivery today but got delayed. I'm not expecting much out of these cheap sword. Again, mainly for decoration. www.ebay.com/itm/403170487055?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=F8KQjsZuRka&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=SLaUBqp7TBm&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY
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Post by mrstabby on May 16, 2023 19:12:32 GMT
I'll try and make this not too wordy. I recently watched a video on one of the Chinese larger workshops, a long room, maybe twenty small identical forges down one wall and a row of identical grinder and buffers across the aisle. There were hundreds of steel blanks leaning up against the wall. A blank goes into a machine that cuts the corners off one end to become the tip. Then using the forge, tip is rounded off and then bevels are hammered and then ground and then dipped to temper. Then the blade is polished. Here is the kicker. Next, it is dropped into a press, all but about a quarter of an inch of the tang is lopped off, a small mechanical arm comes out holding a treaded rod which is held in place in the center of the cut off tang and spot welded. It is then dropped into a barrel with many others ready for a hilt. It was like watching a horror movie - But....Why???
The blade of these pakistani swords look great in person. But you will need to put a little work into it, since it will probably be very dirty with a few specks of surface rust. It will surely look great on the wall, but you really have to oil it, they like to rust.
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Post by karatehottie93 on May 16, 2023 19:54:59 GMT
I'll try and make this not too wordy. I recently watched a video on one of the Chinese larger workshops, a long room, maybe twenty small identical forges down one wall and a row of identical grinder and buffers across the aisle. There were hundreds of steel blanks leaning up against the wall. A blank goes into a machine that cuts the corners off one end to become the tip. Then using the forge, tip is rounded off and then bevels are hammered and then ground and then dipped to temper. Then the blade is polished. Here is the kicker. Next, it is dropped into a press, all but about a quarter of an inch of the tang is lopped off, a small mechanical arm comes out holding a treaded rod which is held in place in the center of the cut off tang and spot welded. It is then dropped into a barrel with many others ready for a hilt. It was like watching a horror movie - But....Why???
The blade of these pakistani swords look great in person. But you will need to put a little work into it, since it will probably be very dirty with a few specks of surface rust. It will surely look great on the wall, but you really have to oil it, they like to rust.
Appreciate the advice. I'll clean it real good, and probably just get in habit of oiling it up whenever I clean and oil my firearms. With your Pakistani blades, have yours held up okay? I know you mentioned the rat tails and that they're not the most functional so that kinda answers part of my question. How is the edge on them? Have you had any of your rat tails snap off yet?
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Post by mrstabby on May 16, 2023 20:09:38 GMT
I didn't do anything but wielding them (no cutting), they feel solid, but mine are short (45cm/18"ish). I didn't trust the longer blades, but they don't feel bad. Fit and finish is good, but I had to return one because the blade had a big delamination crack running through the blade. Sharpness isn't very good, but not very bad either. I had worse sharpening service done by some shops. I doubt they will be good at cutting stuff as they come. Also they are quite heavy for a blade this size (1kg/2lbs), which makes them not really fun to wield (my 28" arming sword is as heavy as this short sword is). They look incredible, but would I trust them when cutting? Not really. Thats why I haven't done it. The shorter daggers that come from there would certainly be workable, but the swords I wouldn't swing against anything besides a pool noodle (and I don't know how good it would cut because of the edge geometry, it is thick). A rat tail can work, if everything is tight, but I don't know....
EDIT: KultOfAthena has one of mine listed as "Battle Ready", but I really don't want to test it since I like it very much.
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Post by karatehottie93 on May 16, 2023 20:40:21 GMT
I didn't do anything but wielding them (no cutting), they feel solid, but mine are short (45cm/18"ish). I didn't trust the longer blades, but they don't feel bad. Fit and finish is good, but I had to return one because the blade had a big delamination crack running through the blade. Sharpness isn't very good, but not very bad either. I had worse sharpening service done by some shops. I doubt they will be good at cutting stuff as they come. Also they are quite heavy for a blade this size (1kg/2lbs), which makes them not really fun to wield (my 28" arming sword is as heavy as this short sword is). They look incredible, but would I trust them when cutting? Not really. Thats why I haven't done it. The shorter daggers that come from there would certainly be workable, but the swords I wouldn't swing against anything besides a pool noodle (and I don't know how good it would cut because of the edge geometry, it is thick). A rat tail can work, if everything is tight, but I don't know....
EDIT: KultOfAthena has one of mine listed as "Battle Ready", but I really don't want to test it since I like it very much. Here's a review for another Pakistan sword. It held up to more abuse than I expected so that makes me feel good.
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Post by toddstratton1 on May 17, 2023 0:41:29 GMT
On the subject of leafblade long swords my valiant armoury leafblade longsword is probably the fastest and most nimble I own. Leaf blade long swords are not worse balanced. Just a non historical design for longsword style. Angus trims leafblade swords get a ton of praise.
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