pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Mar 30, 2023 22:12:44 GMT
I found this on sharpening and had to post in answer those who have posted questions on sharpening. I wish to make clear that I am not necessarily advocating whetstones, but showing here as an example to overly concerned people, and about marketing practices. Personally, I use several techniques depending. Below is a photo of a machete that I sharpened on a rock for the heck of it, and the rock used. I’ve come to the conclusion that it is more in the skill than relying unnecessarily on some expensive piece of equipment. Or spending a few sleepless nights deciding on what to buy.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Mar 31, 2023 15:57:42 GMT
Thanks for sharing this. I have always felt there was a certain amount of voodoo mall ninja semprini when it comes to sharpening stones etc. A trip to any gun and knife show indicates that every manufacturer has a "better mousetrap", but none of them seem to really get the job done at the end of the day. As you pointed out, skill is what matters most. The quality of the stone will get you a better finish, but it won't sharpen the blade for you.
It's rather like sword fighting in that buying something won't make you better at it, only practice will.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Mar 31, 2023 16:59:05 GMT
Well put. The best analogy that I can offer there is chess. I remember buying sets for $1. I also remember seeing many sets more eye appealing and thinking that they wouldn’t win more games for me. To show how times have changed I just checked with Amazon and the cheapest was about $9, but that included a board.😉 I did find a set that really appealed to me for $165 and although my chess playing days are over, I find that set tempting.
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Post by larason2 on Mar 31, 2023 18:42:18 GMT
I used to use a "wet wheel machine" (basically a grindstone that rotates around) to sharpen, but I switched to sharpening stones and will never go back. I could get knives sharp with the machine, but the sharpening looked messy, and it was sometimes frustrating to try to get the right angle. I've had knives sharpened with a belt sander, but they usually have at least a little bit of a concave grind on them, which I don't like, as I think it makes the edge weaker. My Japanese knife was sharpened this way, and now it has a chip out of it (but it was partly my fault for using it to clean a fish!). On a sharpening stone, I usually get a slightly convex surface to the grind, which I feel is stronger. I also think the results from the stone look better, and in my hands stay sharper longer. But it does take a lot more time, and I wouldn't criticize anyone who uses another method if it gets the result they want! It would be great if I could just pick up a stone out in the field somewhere that's awesome for sharpening like pgandy did, but I'm not that good!
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Post by sjoebarry on Apr 1, 2023 13:35:26 GMT
I got a 1000/6000 whetstone and it’s very clear to me my ability is what is lacking. If I had the proper skill I’m sure I could get my knives and even smaller swords sharpened nicely rather than the results I’m currently getting. I’ve been thinking of getting a strop or even a ceramic rod to help clean up my work. But if I was just better at using the stone I would t need them probably
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Post by larason2 on Apr 1, 2023 13:52:10 GMT
I've never used a whetstone, only just water stones, so I'm not sure I would know how to use one! For water stones though, what I have found is that the way you hold it makes a big difference. I watched a Japanese video that I can't find now, and he held the blade with thumb and forefinger to stabilize it on the handle, and several fingers on the blade. Then, the pressure down on the blade was when it was moving edgewise. What I've found is that when you get just the right angle, the knife makes a characteristic sound on the stone, and you get a particular feel. When you get the right sound and feel, you know the sharpening is going well. Then I keep making more passes.
What I've also noticed the togishos do is look at the blade a lot. They sit there looking at it for a long time, then sharpen a few times, then look at it again. What I'm looking for is that I have a good angle on what I'm sharpening, and that it goes from the edge back. I also use two tests - I use the side of the finger test for sharpness, and the thumbnail test for keenness. If it catches on my finger, I know it's sharp (good micro-burr going on), whereas if I press the blade on my thumbnail and try to move it laterally, but it doesn't, that means it's keen (narrow angle of the blade edge). For good sharpening, usually I either move it perpendicular to the stone (with pressure blade side), or at an angle. The Japanese sharpener I saw also just moves it back and forth along the axis of the knife, but with the knife at an angle to the stone (pressure when moving forward, so the angle of the knife is what gets the grind, and reverse when other side of knife is being sharpened). What I found with this though, is that it makes for a nice keen edge, but not usually sharp (doesn't really produce micro burrs). It does produce a nice, even sharpening line on the edge though.
A big part of this though, is experimenting with different angles and techniques until you get the results you want! And like the togisho, spend a long time examining the blade, and a short time sharpening!
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Apr 1, 2023 21:45:28 GMT
Larason’s post for some reason got me off my butt and I resharpened my pinuti after several false starts. I got this pinuti years back from Kris before they started out sourcing to China and had good stuff, and they have since closed their doors. One day after years of use I noticed they edge wasn’t what it was and being in a hurry I used a ceramic rod for a quick fix intending to come back and do a proper job. That was a year ago and I had several false starts but never got around to it. So, first on checking today I found a bad spot that I got rid of with a chakmak then to my favourite method, sandpaper. It’s cheap, readily available, does a good job. I started with 220 grit and finished with 1000 on the sides for a polish leaving my usual 600 immediately on the edge. The result was a single bevel, shaving sharp blade that still showed its temper line, though the line is difficult for the camera to pick up. It has always has been. The spots on the edge are debris that wiped off. This should back up Burrfection's tomato video above in that one doesn’t need expensive sharpening tools to get the job done.
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Post by larason2 on Apr 2, 2023 0:58:01 GMT
Nice, I didn't know sandpaper could get results like that! I'm sure I could figure out how to use it, but now that I have the stones there probably is no point. Nice to know it's an option though!
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Post by randomnobody on Apr 2, 2023 1:20:16 GMT
I have several knives that I've been struggling to sharpen. 90% of what I own takes an edge no issue, but the other 10% I've tried so many different things and they just won't get sharp.
These range from cheap to less-cheap; one CRKT Sting from decades ago, made in Thailand of drop-forged 1055, if memory serves, my favorite J.J. Martinez in 420, and two knives off D2 by Artisan Cutlery and Civivi. I might have to break out my Lansky set and make sure I'm getting the angle right, using coarser stones, because my 800-1,000 grit Smith's brand diamond hone just isn't touching those knives. It does wonderfully on everything else I own, though.
Most of my knives I maintain with just a honing steel and a leather strop. My work blades get s cardboard strop a few times each shift until I get home and hone them. My EDCs are the ones I don't have to fuss over as much...
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Post by larason2 on Apr 2, 2023 15:03:52 GMT
I've never met a knife I couldn't get sharp on a wet stone. Sometimes it takes a bit of work though. The coarsest stone I currently have is a 1000, but I think I need something a bit coarser for knives that are really dull. If you look at the edge under light and it looks like a bright line, then it's really dull. You're looking at quite a few passes with a 1000 grit stone to get it anywhere near sharp, maybe a bit less with a 400 grit stone. There are those who use a 1000 or 2000 grit stone wet, then for 5000 or 9000 use it dry. I was thinking of doing that, but my 5000 and 9000 grit stones specifically said to use them wet (so I do!). I've never used whetstones before, but if a knife is really dull then you really have to grind it. I'm sure a dry whetstone could grind, but I'd go slow to make sure you don't overheat the steel. You also have to start pretty coarse, maybe a 400 grit. As the togishos say though, for very coarse stones go very slowly, as they can do irreparable damage quickly!
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Post by pgandy on Apr 2, 2023 17:26:23 GMT
Many people will use a stone, or whatever too fine for the initial passes making more work for themselves. I have not used water stones but I dare say, unless just tweaking an edge, 1000 grit is too fine to start with. As for using stones dry, I’d advise against this as the pores will tend to load up. A lubricant, water or oil, will flush the removed metal away. It’s not there for cooling but is a different story with a machine. Run a paper towel over the surface after using and still wet and you’ll see how much metal the lub prevented from clogging the pores. I do that after finishing to clean the stone even if I have to add more rather than allowing the oil to evaporate depositing metal into the stone.
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Post by pgandy on Apr 2, 2023 18:22:24 GMT
I found this video that puts sharpening devices into a more realistic picture. Talk about marketing. Here the narrator compares a $4 Work Sharp to a $1,000 super deluxe sharpener. The truth of the matter is to make the super device complete an additional $255 is needed and I seriously question if it would handle my swords and many of my knives. He does talk briefly about the ceramic rods in the Work Sharp questioning the equivalent grit. Which brings up a question in my mind. I’ve never seen that mentioned anywhere. Vendors only advertise ‘ceramic rod’. But there is a difference. My first came with two rods and a base. Later a bought a Lansky which came with two sets, a coarser and finer and two angles that could be used. And I can tell a difference in the blade’s cutting as to which I use. I almost laugh at the comparison. I dare say the edge I did yesterday with sandpaper cost less than $4 to do, and is sharper. And I polished out the scratches the blade had picked up during use.
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Post by eastman on Apr 2, 2023 19:18:19 GMT
based on the length of the guide rods, the $1000 sharpener will be limited to shorter blade lengths in a single pass (similar to the Lansky rod-based system). You could try multiple positions on the blade, but I'm doubting it will work for you as well as you are currently getting from sandpaper.
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Post by treeslicer on Apr 2, 2023 19:35:49 GMT
IMHO, all of the patent sharpeners are B.S., but that's not why I'm pitching a comment in here. That you can get a fine edge without them, using any of several different methods, is well-known, especially by fine woodworkers who need the sharpest edges available.
My comment is about "stone envy", that I've seen turn into stone collecting.
Something that's seldom mentioned in these discussions, is why togishi keep such a variety of natural waterstones. It's not improved sharpness, it's that different slurries produce different textures. Unless you're working to microcontour the structures in a Japanese, or similar, blade, a huge stable of fancy waterstones will be of no help to you. IMHO, a few different grits of ruby or silicon carbide oilstones is all that's needed for ordinary sharpening. They last much longer than waterstones, and the hard ruby stones in my shop have never yet needed truing.
BTW, I've got nothing against abrasive papers over a planar support, like glass. I just tend to go through a lot of paper sheets compared to oilstones.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Apr 2, 2023 22:52:45 GMT
Now I'm worried. I spent $11,000 on an Eddie Van Halen replica frankenstrat, a 5150 tube amp with matching cab, an EVH custom guitar pic, a pair of leopard pattern parachute pants and a white EVH brand tank top, a 5150 guitar lead, and an EVH strap.
Are you guys saying that I won't be able to also play like Eddie VanHalen? The guys at the Guitar Center told me that's what I needed. Tell me what am I missing and I will go out and buy it right away...
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Post by treeslicer on Apr 2, 2023 23:57:02 GMT
Now I'm worried. I spent $11,000 on an Eddie Van Halen replica frankenstrat, a 5150 tube amp with matching cab, an EVH custom guitar pic, a pair of leopard pattern parachute pants and a white EVH brand tank top, a 5150 guitar lead, and an EVH strap. Are you guys saying that I won't be able to also play like Eddie VanHalen? The guys at the Guitar Center told me that's what I needed. Tell me what am I missing and I will go out and buy it right away... From several years of exposure to you on the board, I expect you'll sound more like Ace Frehley.
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Post by Curtis_Louis on Apr 2, 2023 23:58:28 GMT
Now I'm worried. I spent $11,000 on an Eddie Van Halen replica frankenstrat, a 5150 tube amp with matching cab, an EVH custom guitar pic, a pair of leopard pattern parachute pants and a white EVH brand tank top, a 5150 guitar lead, and an EVH strap. Are you guys saying that I won't be able to also play like Eddie VanHalen? The guys at the Guitar Center told me that's what I needed. Tell me what am I missing and I will go out and buy it right away... Oh man, they lied to you. You needed to buy the $21,000 frankenstrat.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Apr 3, 2023 0:14:08 GMT
Sorry, Rufus.
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Post by eastman on Apr 3, 2023 0:14:53 GMT
Now I'm worried. I spent $11,000 on an Eddie Van Halen replica frankenstrat, a 5150 tube amp with matching cab, an EVH custom guitar pic, a pair of leopard pattern parachute pants and a white EVH brand tank top, a 5150 guitar lead, and an EVH strap. Are you guys saying that I won't be able to also play like Eddie VanHalen? The guys at the Guitar Center told me that's what I needed. Tell me what am I missing and I will go out and buy it right away... Oh man, they lied to you. You needed to buy the $21,000 frankenstrat.
the replicas won't cut it - you need a $98,000 actual EVH frankenstrat
anything less is not enough
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Post by pgandy on Apr 3, 2023 0:42:17 GMT
I have several knives that I've been struggling to sharpen. 90% of what I own takes an edge no issue, but the other 10% I've tried so many different things and they just won't get sharp. These range from cheap to less-cheap; one CRKT Sting from decades ago, made in Thailand of drop-forged 1055, if memory serves, my favorite J.J. Martinez in 420, and two knives off D2 by Artisan Cutlery and Civivi. I might have to break out my Lansky set and make sure I'm getting the angle right, using coarser stones, because my 800-1,000 grit Smith's brand diamond hone just isn't touching those knives. It does wonderfully on everything else I own, though. I saw a video today by the same fellow that posted below your post and this time he compared his $1,000 machine with a Work Sharp KO. But that is not the point here. In that test he used better quality knives, $50? compared to $15. Both of the better quality knives came very close to each other with the original sharpness. After sharpening both were very close, and the $1.000 did a better job than before, and beat the Work Sharp by a hair. Having said that I find the Work Sharp more versatile and will do things that I doubt his expensive machine is capable of. But the point here is the quality of the knife makes a difference.
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