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Post by Matthew.Jensen on Feb 17, 2023 16:58:42 GMT
Hello there sword friends! I am looking to make a tier list video around mass production katana manufacturers. I could use some help creating a list of companies that sell mass production katana. I am going to avoid custom individual makers for the moment and stick to companies that sell swords from large production runs or small made to order batches. I want to stick to katana or katana`esq blades. The plan was to use this site tiermaker.com/ or something like it. This is new for me so not 100% sure how it will work out. Still, I thought it might be fun for a video. If I get the list together, it might be fun for other sword`tuber folks to use as well. This is the list I have so far - What am I missing? Angel Sword APOC Badger Blades Balaur Arms Battle Blades Blade Culture International Brandon Sword Bushido Swords Cheness Citadel Knives and Swords Cloudhammer/Byzer Cold Steel Condor Dragon King Dragon Sword Dynasty Forge Fidestisan Gen2 Gunto (not sure if this should be here) Hanbon Handmade Sword Hanwei/Paul CHen Haytaya Kotetsu Huano Huawei Iron Tiger Forge JKOO/Sinosword Kaneie Kataku Budo Komonjo (maybe this should be here) Kris Cutlery Last Legend Lyue Sword MAS Martial Art Swords Masahiro MiniKatana Motohara Munetoshi Musashi Nine Circles OniForge Onikiri Point Gallery/Texas Steel Props ProSword Rittler Steel Romance of Men Ronin Ryansword Ryujin RyuMon Saber Smith SBG Shikoto Shinwa Simon Lee Skyjiro Sokojikara ST. Nihonto Stage Steel Starfire Swords of Nothshire Ten Ryu TFW Thaitsuki Trukatana United Cutlery Wiwingti YesKatana Z-Sey Zeist Armory Zombie Tools ** EDIT Adding Boker True Katana Feilong Kawashima |
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Post by jester on Feb 17, 2023 17:34:41 GMT
Excellent idea, although this is gonna take forever due to so many brands.
If it was me, I would do different tier lists like this:
1) Longquan dropdown (all of them)
2) production katana (hanwei, cold steel...)
3) production high end (Citadel, EBM...)
4) best value
5) final list with all the top tier in each category
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Feb 17, 2023 17:58:25 GMT
Afaik APOC is just a production line of Dragon King and Gen2 doesn't make kats any more.
There's a sub brand of Böker/Solingen in Germany named John Lee that sells Longquan kats.
Böker also offers a few cheap katana under their name.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Feb 17, 2023 18:57:42 GMT
Glad to see your list in alphabetical order. You might want to include True Swords. They sell other than katanas, but have a large inventory of introductory level katanas including but not restricted to Musashi and Musha. www.trueswords.com/ |
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Post by pvsampson on Feb 17, 2023 20:36:28 GMT
Two missing,off the top of my head, are Feilong and Kawashima.
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Post by vidar on Feb 18, 2023 9:19:47 GMT
You could mention that Kaneie is also known as Kurin.
Nine circles may be removed from the list.
Then there are three manufacturers you could add: John Lee, Taoforge and Bushiswords. They focus on the European market.
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Post by jester on Feb 18, 2023 10:33:28 GMT
Yari no Hanzo.
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Post by Arlequin on Feb 18, 2023 10:41:34 GMT
Id probably take off the list:
Ryumon
Masahiro
Onikiri
Ten ryu
Wiwing ti
These brands are mostly defunct and kinda negligible at best. Cheness is iffy, quality wise there not that great but there's enough floating around they might still be of interest to someone looking for a basic budget cutter
You have other defunct brands, but their quality is well regarded enough that they still pop up and sell decently in the secondary market. (Wiwing ti arguably falls in that category,but I've seen maybe one sword show up in the last decade lol)
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Feb 18, 2023 11:03:25 GMT
Imperial Forge Sakaeforge (Son of Paul Chen)
The German stores Swords and More and Schwertshop offer kats made in Longquan under their store name.
Marto offers stainless steel kats and Windlass a tactical "Survival Wakizashi". |
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Yagoro
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Post by Yagoro on Feb 19, 2023 5:30:24 GMT
Tbh i saw your tier list and am curious why you put zsey in b but huawei in s? Especially since huawei hasnt been delivering orders consistently, and zsey has much more customization options. Also not sure if id rate skyjiro above zsey. Ive handled 2 huaweis and only 1 zsey(currently waiting on a custom one) and the zsey in most aspects was just outright better than the huawei(both of which were dotanuki notare). Also have handled 2 skyjiro swords, and while they were pretty good for the price, they were head and shoulders below huawei(which makes sense based off your ranking) but also worse than zsey in every aspect(which also makes sense, atleast for the taka chigai because of its price point). However the black hawk i had was priced similarly to many zsey offerings and everything about it was worse.
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George
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Post by George on Feb 19, 2023 7:59:48 GMT
Tbh i saw your tier list and am curious why you put zsey in b but huawei in s? Especially since huawei hasnt been delivering orders consistently, and zsey has much more customization options. Also not sure if id rate skyjiro above zsey. Ive handled 2 huaweis and only 1 zsey(currently waiting on a custom one) and the zsey in most aspects was just outright better than the huawei(both of which were dotanuki notare). Also have handled 2 skyjiro swords, and while they were pretty good for the price, they were head and shoulders below huawei(which makes sense based off your ranking) but also worse than zsey in every aspect(which also makes sense, atleast for the taka chigai because of its price point). However the black hawk i had was priced similarly to many zsey offerings and everything about it was worse. Huawei in S tier? Wild! Well, it is his personal list and of course people are never gonna agree with everything haha. Gotta remember, last time Matt handled a Huawei was probably years ago when they probably deserved S (based on all the other junk out there). Also, the Zsey he got with the Bo-Hi... Gotta consider his personal experience and not so much the whole truth of the matter. Just skipped through the vid, I'll watch the whole thing later. Citadel lower than Huawei made me laugh so much! It makes 0 sense to me but whatever, I didn't goto the effort to make the list!! |
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Post by jester on Feb 19, 2023 8:33:21 GMT
Tbh i saw your tier list and am curious why you put zsey in b but huawei in s? Especially since huawei hasnt been delivering orders consistently, and zsey has much more customization options. Also not sure if id rate skyjiro above zsey. Ive handled 2 huaweis and only 1 zsey(currently waiting on a custom one) and the zsey in most aspects was just outright better than the huawei(both of which were dotanuki notare). Also have handled 2 skyjiro swords, and while they were pretty good for the price, they were head and shoulders below huawei(which makes sense based off your ranking) but also worse than zsey in every aspect(which also makes sense, atleast for the taka chigai because of its price point). However the black hawk i had was priced similarly to many zsey offerings and everything about it was worse. I think the general perception is more like this: S - Motohara A - Zsey, Citadel, Huawei B - Cloudhammer, Skyjiro, Dragon Sword, Dragon King, Feilong C - Ronin Katana, Hanwei, Dynasty Forge, Munetoshi, Thaitsuki D - All the Longquan dropdown, Cold Steel E - Ryujin, Ryumon, Ten Ryu, Sheng F - Marto |
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George
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Post by George on Feb 19, 2023 9:02:48 GMT
Tbh i saw your tier list and am curious why you put zsey in b but huawei in s? Especially since huawei hasnt been delivering orders consistently, and zsey has much more customization options. Also not sure if id rate skyjiro above zsey. Ive handled 2 huaweis and only 1 zsey(currently waiting on a custom one) and the zsey in most aspects was just outright better than the huawei(both of which were dotanuki notare). Also have handled 2 skyjiro swords, and while they were pretty good for the price, they were head and shoulders below huawei(which makes sense based off your ranking) but also worse than zsey in every aspect(which also makes sense, atleast for the taka chigai because of its price point). However the black hawk i had was priced similarly to many zsey offerings and everything about it was worse. I think the general perception is more like this: S - Motohara A - Zsey, Citadel, Huawei B - Cloudhammer, Skyjiro, Dragon Sword, Dragon King, Feilong C - Ronin Katana, Hanwei, Dynasty Forge, Munetoshi, Thaitsuki D - All the Longquan dropdown, Cold Steel E - Ryujin, Ryumon, Ten Ryu, Sheng F - Marto As someone who owns a Citadel, Zsey and Huawei it's LAUGHABLE that either Zsey OR Huawei would be in the same tier (or higher WTF??) as Citadel. I just don't understand myself, but hey, we all have different opinions. I'm referring to the Video, not specifically your list. |
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Post by jester on Feb 19, 2023 9:11:34 GMT
I think one should take into account several factors for these comparison. In my opinion, for example, Citadel gives you a sword worth lets's say 9 out of 10. For a big price. Zsey and Huawei give you a sword worth 7 or 8 out of 10. But for half the price or even less. Citadel gives a better sword but with the other two you get way more sword for bucks than with Citadel, therefore, more value. And value is something to be kept into account when doing tier lists.
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George
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Post by George on Feb 19, 2023 14:10:04 GMT
I think one should take into account several factors for these comparison. In my opinion, for example, Citadel gives you a sword worth lets's say 9 out of 10. For a big price. Zsey and Huawei give you a sword worth 7 or 8 out of 10. But for half the price or even less. Citadel gives a better sword but with the other two you get way more sword for bucks than with Citadel, therefore, more value. And value is something to be kept into account when doing tier lists. True! You're not wrong! I guess I saw it as a list simply on "what is better." |
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Post by jester on Feb 19, 2023 15:20:07 GMT
Indeed. In order to have a fair and honest tier list we should first of all assign some universal parameters and then apply them to each brand. I also think having EBM as definition of Tier S is also a great starting point. But it's also necessary to divide the brands in price range because obviously a Citadel is superior to a RK but it also costs 2k more and that doesn't make RK a bad sword. Opposite, the value of RK in the $500 range could be superior to the value of Citadel in the $2500 range.
Something like this should work:
Premium ($2000 and above)
- Here one should expect basically perfection or nearly there. No mistakes, high quality parts, superior polishing, excellent balance and geometry. Chances of lemons is 0% (also because if it happens, they replace your sword immediately).
High End ($1000 to $2000)
- Here parts should still be high quality, blades should be very well balanced and nicely polished. Transitions might be not perfect but rarely. Ito should be very tight at all times. Chances of lemons should be below 10%.
Mid Category ($400 to $1000)
- Here it would be acceptable to get some minor issues like a slightly loose ito (still functional tho), an imperfect transition, saya rattle and shims. Fittings might be still high quality but it might be acceptable to see some cheaper pieces especially on more expensive steels like L6 or powdered (I still hate it personally). Chances of lemons should hopefully be less than 30%
Low Budget ($100 to $400)
- Here the quest is NOT to get a loose ito, a misaligned transition, a cheap alloy set of fittings, the wrong tsuba or the wrong color ito, especially in the sub 300 range. Here is also where value counts the most. Chances of lemons could be above 40%
Now we can put brands in each category. Some brands might even fit in 2 or more categories. At this point, one should evaluate universal parameters like: parts quality, blade geometry, polishing, value for money, customer service, tsukamaki, transitions, etc.
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Post by blairbob on Feb 19, 2023 21:11:46 GMT
for $100-200, I think you're asking a lot not to have cheap fittings. Would be nice for the tsuba to not be cheap alloy because they can warp.
but definitely fine to have cheap rayskin (hopefully without wood exposed) and a tight enough wrap that lasts more than a year. Hell, at least 6 months. Or a tsuka that doesn't completely fail but maybe have a slight crack (not ideal at all but for $100...)
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Post by captainharlock on Feb 23, 2023 13:57:04 GMT
Hi Matthew, I just finished up your sword list ramble and I have to say it was very enjoyable and I feel like I got a lot out of it. You really could have stretched it out longer IMO. Very nicely done.
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Post by Matthew.Jensen on Feb 23, 2023 14:30:55 GMT
Tbh i saw your tier list and am curious why you put zsey in b but huawei in s? Especially since huawei hasnt been delivering orders consistently, and zsey has much more customization options. Also not sure if id rate skyjiro above zsey. Ive handled 2 huaweis and only 1 zsey(currently waiting on a custom one) and the zsey in most aspects was just outright better than the huawei(both of which were dotanuki notare). Also have handled 2 skyjiro swords, and while they were pretty good for the price, they were head and shoulders below huawei(which makes sense based off your ranking) but also worse than zsey in every aspect(which also makes sense, atleast for the taka chigai because of its price point). However the black hawk i had was priced similarly to many zsey offerings and everything about it was worse. Late to the party on the reply's here but I will try to give some more insight. Keep in mind that my musings are not with any particular context or use in mind for this list. It is based on my personal first hand experience, a bit of interpretation, and not favoring any one quality. A mix of what I perceive to be quality, value, service, or how the manufacturer delivers on their promise. If I were rating this as who makes the best blade for Iaido under $400, the best zombie weapon for $1000, what blade would I take to war for under $5k, or what cuts tatami best, then the list would take a very different look. At least in some spots. Just trying to clarify that the video is not about which can be wacked into a metal rod the most times. The difference between ZSey and Huawei in my mind is between quality and price. I have had fewer examples of ZSey to look at. The single example I looked at was $900 and did not have as many details addressed as the $400 Hauwei. It had a nicer polish, a clean feeling, and was a well made blade. It still ranks high but Huawei hits a lot of little things that tend to be absent in all but the well done premium brands and higher end custom pieces. Is Hauwei better than ZSey, it depends. In some ways I would argue they provide a better value, in other ways ZSey provides some things Huawei does not or cannot. Polish and ontime delivery come to the top of my mind. But if you can wait, that Huawei sure seems to give you a lot for your money. Skyjrio is another that has impressed. I am not impressed by their service but they seem to make a good product for the most part. Some have been truly amazing feeling swords. I have had somewhere around 15 or 20 skyjiro blades, hard to keep track. In that time my experience has been largely positive. I only have one ZSey to reflect on as well as some impressions from their website. My impressions are subject to change and you could be right about ZSey being the better value. That said, $900 seems to be the start, the crossed feathers and warlord katana were $500-$600 (from what I recall) and they offered something very nice. Not the same but debatably a better value. The tier list is open for others to use. Maybe make one yourself and throw out some thoughts. I would watch. |
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Post by Matthew.Jensen on Feb 23, 2023 14:40:55 GMT
I think the general perception is more like this: S - Motohara A - Zsey, Citadel, Huawei B - Cloudhammer, Skyjiro, Dragon Sword, Dragon King, Feilong C - Ronin Katana, Hanwei, Dynasty Forge, Munetoshi, Thaitsuki D - All the Longquan dropdown, Cold Steel E - Ryujin, Ryumon, Ten Ryu, Sheng F - Marto As someone who owns a Citadel, Zsey and Huawei it's LAUGHABLE that either Zsey OR Huawei would be in the same tier (or higher WTF??) as Citadel. I just don't understand myself, but hey, we all have different opinions. I'm referring to the Video, not specifically your list. If the question was who puts a sword together better Citadel, ZSey, or Huawei my answer might be different. I am factoring in that majority of things Citadel gets right at $2000+ are also present in a $400 Huawei. There is a wow for your money factor that comes in. At $2k+ Citadel comes with loftier expectations. What do you think the rank should be? |
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