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Post by skelley on Jan 3, 2023 19:35:38 GMT
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Post by treeslicer on Jan 4, 2023 7:21:38 GMT
It looks to me like it is a less-than-accurate (wallhanger? cheap re-enactor grade?) version of the US M1833 Dragoon Saber, which was actually a pipeback. The workmanship/finish, lack of etchings, and inaccuracies don't augur well for it being Civil War or before. If the markings are authentic, it was made by Pettibone Brothers Mfg Co., which was a prolific US manufacturer of military, ceremonial and fraternal paraphernalia, including swords, during the 19th. through the 20th. Centuries. There seems to still be a manufacturer of work clothes by that name in Cinncinati, OH, most likely a successor company. The wide date range for the company makes items like this difficult to date.
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Post by skelley on Jan 4, 2023 21:25:15 GMT
Much appreciated treeslicer. I figured, after the fact, that it being authentic was a real long shot with the lack of markings, but it never hurts to ask. |
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Post by Mark Millman on Jan 5, 2023 11:36:09 GMT
Dear skelley, With respect to treeslicer, I don't think this saber is an attempt to reproduce a Model 1833 saber. It's more likely to be a late-nineteenth- or early-twentieth-century item the design of which was inspired by the M1833. Your photos don't clearly show the guard's reverse (inboard) side, but it appears to be proportionally bigger than that on the M1833 and to have ornamentation lacking on the earlier, military weapon. As treeslicer says, Pettibone, which was founded after the Civil War, was an important manufacturer of society swords for fraternal organizations. This example seems from your photos to be sized like a society sword rather than a military one, but (with the possible exception of the guard's reverse side) lacks any decoration that would identify it with a fraternal organization. I'm tempted to speculate that this may have been intended for youth drill teams. Competitive drilling was popular in the late nineteenth century, so much so that it's sometimes included in books of athletic activities for schools. That idea is, as I say, just speculation. In any case, this does not look like a recent item. In other words, I think it is authentic--but not a Model 1833 Dragoon Saber, nor a military weapon of any kind. I hope this proves helpful. Best, Mark Millman |
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Jan 5, 2023 13:47:47 GMT
I’m not sure what you mean by a ‘real’ sword. But I agree with Mark on this matter although I cannot identify the sword.
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Post by treeslicer on Jan 5, 2023 16:53:04 GMT
Dear skelley, With respect to treeslicer , I don't think this saber is an attempt to reproduce a Model 1833 saber. It's more likely to be a late-nineteenth- or early-twentieth-century item the design of which was inspired by the M1833. Your photos don't clearly show the guard's reverse (inboard) side, but it appears to be proportionally bigger than that on the M1833 and to have ornamentation lacking on the earlier, military weapon. As treeslicer says, Pettibone, which was founded after the Civil War, was an important manufacturer of society swords for fraternal organizations. This example seems from your photos to be sized like a society sword rather than a military one, but (with the possible exception of the guard's reverse side) lacks any decoration that would identify it with a fraternal organization. I'm tempted to speculate that this may have been intended for youth drill teams. Competitive drilling was popular in the late nineteenth century, so much so that it's sometimes included in books of athletic activities for schools. That idea is, as I say, just speculation. In any case, this does not look like a recent item. In other words, I think it is authentic--but not a Model 1833 Dragoon Saber, nor a military weapon of any kind. I hope this proves helpful. Best, Mark Millman I’m not sure what you mean by a ‘real’ sword. But I agree with Mark on this matter although I cannot identify the sword. I was trying not to speculate pointlessly, but since we're heading toward that rabbit hole, IMHO, the sword is vintage 20th. Century, and by the deformation of the guard, along with the thickness of the blade, was used in stage fights as a theatrical sword. It might have been a movie prop. What it was originally sold as would require going through surviving Pettibone catalogs, which I don't have ready access to.
I referred to the M1833 because it is the only US made saber with a brass 3-branch hilt of that configuration. The sword is more likely intended to vaguely suggest a generic mid-19th. Century cavalry saber.
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Post by skelley on Jan 5, 2023 22:00:42 GMT
I was able to find one of their catalogs online but no dice. Interesting stuff to thumb though in any event. I'll try some more latter but this has all been very helpful. Again, my thanks to all you wonderful folks.
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Post by Spathologist on Jan 12, 2023 19:42:22 GMT
Most likely a generic German product, purchased for fraternal use in the last decade of the 19th or first decade of the 20th century. Pettibone Bros. sold clothing, appurtenances, swords, and other militaria for military and fraternal use, mostly fraternal.
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Post by treeslicer on Jan 12, 2023 21:35:51 GMT
I was able to find one of their catalogs online but no dice. Interesting stuff to thumb though in any event. I'll try some more latter but this has all been very helpful. Again, my thanks to all you wonderful folks. Okay, did this guy answer your question? sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/70023/skelley-mystery-sabre |
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Post by skelley on Jan 12, 2023 21:57:43 GMT
I was able to find one of their catalogs online but no dice. Interesting stuff to thumb though in any event. I'll try some more latter but this has all been very helpful. Again, my thanks to all you wonderful folks. Okay, did this guy answer your question? sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/70023/skelley-mystery-sabreI haven't been able to find anything to be 100% sure but researching this kinda thing is new to me and I'm just kinda stumbling around. I haven't been able to find any more catalog images but I think the manufacturer and possible association with the Ancient and Honorable Artillery Company are as close as I'll get. That is more than I hoped for so I consider this a success for the most part! |
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Post by treeslicer on Jan 12, 2023 22:55:38 GMT
I haven't been able to find anything to be 100% sure but researching this kinda thing is new to me and I'm just kinda stumbling around. I haven't been able to find any more catalog images but I think the manufacturer and possible association with the Ancient and Honorable Artillery Company are as close as I'll get. That is more than I hoped for so I consider this a success for the most part!
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Post by skelley on Jan 12, 2023 23:28:23 GMT
Well, I think that seals it for me then!
The funny thing is that my mom's family is just a little ways south from Cincinnati where Pettibone Bros. would have been and my dad is from Boston where the AHAC is located. That level of coincidence is kinda crazy.
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Things have changed!