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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2008 2:46:15 GMT
well yea i have another round of questions for u guys. to start off i was looking into getting a belt grinder but after seeing their price tag ($1200) i was wondering if there is a cheaper ($300 or less) substitute that will work better for final shaping and putting a finish on oddly shaped blades. next up oil quenches. after cracking so many blades in water and brine I'm sick of it so I'm willing to try oil now and i just wanted to ask if there is anything i should know before proceeding (wont be quenching for at least a week or more). what type of oil should i use for a quench using admiral steels 1075-1080 carbon steel. should an interrupted quenching method be used? should i coat the blade in anything? if it flares up and does not die out what should i do?
Thanks for the help!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2008 6:46:24 GMT
well yea i have another round of questions for u guys. to start off i was looking into getting a belt grinder but after seeing their price tag ($1200) i was wondering if there is a cheaper ($300 or less) substitute that will work better for final shaping and putting a finish on oddly shaped blades. next up oil quenches. after cracking so many blades in water and brine I'm sick of it so I'm willing to try oil now and i just wanted to ask if there is anything i should know before proceeding (wont be quenching for at least a week or more). what type of oil should i use for a quench using admiral steels 1075-1080 carbon steel. should an interrupted quenching method be used? should i coat the blade in anything? if it flares up and does not die out what should i do? Thanks for the help! Well, here is my amateur opinion (read: wait for more experienced answers before proceeding lol). Grinder...try this: www.usaknifemaker.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=59&products_id=723&zenid=2b897191c0a7ae9a4c5320da519a2e0dOil quench...I'm going to be using peanut oil with my Admiral 1075/1080. Interrupted quench?? I'm not sure to be honest. Coated blade...all my blades get clay regardless...because a knife is just a sharpened hunk of steel if it doesn't have a hamon =p! (yes...I'm turning into a 'DH Snob!' lol) If it flares and won't die...you do have a multi purpose fire extinguisher don't you? Anyhow...hope my rather simple replies help...even if it's only to make you laugh lol. Cris
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Post by Matt993f.o.d on Oct 1, 2008 16:15:20 GMT
Oil for quenching doesnt have to be anything fancy. Basic olive oil out of the kitchen works a treat (David Boye, uses it for his blades, and he uses it for all sorts of fancy steels). New or used motor oil or ATF (automatic transmission fluid) also works. As for an interrupted quench, there is no real need to, but you can remove the blade from the oil and dunk it in water if you want it to cool slightly faster.
Flare up fires can make you jump but arent too dangerous. I just cover the tin of oil up with the lid of a biscuit tin, and that puts the fire out straight away.
As for grinders; that link Cris put up is for a manual on how to make one. It looks like you need a bit of engineering expertise to put one together. You can buy a woodworking belt sander. I have one. It is pretty poor as a stock remover; the belt runs too slow, but isnt bad for VERY LIGHT shaping and handle sanding/shaping. Dead cheap but incredibly useful. I got mine for 40 quid. Don't know how I'd do without it.
A cheap alternative, and one that I use, is to buy an air compressor and use a Double Action sander (a handheld disc sander used to sand bodywork in automotive paint shops) with the secondary orbit locked. It works really well for polishing and light shaping, but is easier and safer (cheaper too) than a belt grinder. I got mine from Snap On tools for a mere 50 pounds. Bargain for all time its saved me.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2008 21:22:40 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2008 21:31:14 GMT
Those would work in a pinch Darkslyde. There's one at my local Harbor Freight for around that price too. Of the two the grizzly is probably the better I think...but having a disc sander is nice too.
FYI the link I posted earlier is to plans yes...but, for a basic setup with flat platen and slack belt...you can build it for about $300...so it fit inside your budget. That guys 14yr old kid built one...so I'm sure any of us could too. He states clearly that no measurement, drill holes, or tapped holes are critical as far as dimensions go. For myself I'm in the process of putting together materials to build even without the plans for now. The nice thing about the plans is it's step by step...almost like putting together a model car lol. That, and the fact that you have a detailed parts list. Looking at the pictures I could probably figure it out, but eventually I'll pick up the plans just as a check system.
Once I get it done I'll let you know how it works =).
Cris
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Post by Matt993f.o.d on Oct 1, 2008 21:39:00 GMT
A 14 year old built a belt grinder?! Wow. I don't think I'd be brave enough to try it.
I agree with Cris. Those sanders would work fine, especially for general handle shaping.
A DA sander is a different thing again, though. I have found it much more useful for the actual blade making bit (as opposed to handle shaping). Look it up in a snap on or blue point catalogue and you'll find a NICE one.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2008 22:02:46 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2008 22:12:20 GMT
I had considered buying an attachment for a bench grinder myself....but in the end they're all about $150 (for a decent sized one), and that's half the cost of a home made belt grinder. That one you just linked will do a similar job to the ones above, but I think the original grizzly is still better. The grizzly has a vertical belt, with a tool rest and flat platen to help you find square. It also looks like the grizzly has something of a slack belt above the flat platen. By the way, a slack belt isn't a 'loose' belt. It's a belt that runs over two wheels and has no backing...thus providing a bit of 'give'. This allows you to vary the pressure and lets the belt impart a bit more of an organic shaping to the piece. From what I understand it's supposed to be really good for convex edges (my favorite type!). It's GOT to be better than trying to shape them with a hand file like I do lol. Go to youtube and do a search for 'KMG Demo'. That really shows some of the benefits of a belt grinder over all these fixed sanders...and also shows a good example of how the slack belt works.
Cris
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2008 2:01:52 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2008 3:04:27 GMT
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Post by Matt993f.o.d on Oct 2, 2008 11:19:19 GMT
The bench grinder with the sanding belt attachment is good. Thats this one, by the way. www.amazon.com/Grizzly-H7760-Combo-Sander-Grinder/dp/B000E34C2K/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1222912256&sr=1-1I have one of these and it is quite useful as it is a METAL GRINDING belt sander, as opposed to a woodworking one like the others. Obviously this is better for knife making. It isnt anywhere near as versatile as a "proper" belt grinder, but is good for the money. I can guarantee that this is capable of heavier stock removal than the other two. Bear in mind though, with all these tools, none of them make knife making easier. They are all VERY hard to use properly. I know. I have them all.
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Post by Matt993f.o.d on Oct 2, 2008 11:23:39 GMT
I still reckon you should just buy a DA, though.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2008 22:39:23 GMT
If you are going to buy a sander, buy a nice one. Get the sears 2X42, I know a few pros who have one and love it. Only a hundred twenty five bucks.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2008 22:44:22 GMT
Oil for quenching doesnt have to be anything fancy. Basic olive oil out of the kitchen works a treat (David Boye, uses it for his blades, and he uses it for all sorts of fancy steels). New or used motor oil or ATF (automatic transmission fluid) also works. As for an interrupted quench, there is no real need to, but you can remove the blade from the oil and dunk it in water if you want it to cool slightly faster. Cheap vegetable oils and auto fluids will get you by, but if you want to get serious use a serious quench oil. For plain carbon steels Houghton offers Houghto-quench K, a fast speed oil made specifically for quenching fast steels. Heatbath offers Park's #50, which is a very fast oil, which works perfectly (as it was designed to) for 10XX ad other shallow hardening steels commonly considered water hardening steels, yeat with a MUCH higher success rate, damn near 100%. Why bother with a cooking oil designed to HOLD heat and cook food, instead of an oil designed to pull away heat.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2008 21:08:18 GMT
well ok guys heres my delema... right now i have a hand held belt sander and thats fine for strait blades with a uniform bevel or even one with an upward curvature. I'm working on a project that is going to have downward curvature and i just don't see how i will be able to put a finish on the bevel other than doing it by hand. now its my thought that a belt sander/grinder will work for this knife and future projects as well as handles. I'm not so much worried about grinding as i am just getting all the file marks and other imperfections out.
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Post by Matt993f.o.d on Oct 4, 2008 22:11:17 GMT
It shouldnt make a difference, surely? You may have to run that past me again, cos I'm not sure what you're on about.
If the only way to do a job is by hand, btw, then by hand it must be! Tools are nice, but they rarely make a job easier. More complicated, maybe, but rarely easier.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2008 22:56:06 GMT
when i say by hand i mean taking out all the file marks with a piece of sandpaper where normally i would have used the belt sander. in this situation i cant use the handheld belt sander because i wont be able to reach the bevel. what I'm hoping is that a slack belt sander will be able to form to the curve of the bevel on this knife. i must disagree with u on the fact that tools make the job harder/more complicated. i don't know where i would be without my angle grinder, dermal, or drill press.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2008 1:28:50 GMT
when i say by hand i mean taking out all the file marks with a piece of sandpaper where normally i would have used the belt sander. in this situation i cant use the handheld belt sander because i wont be able to reach the bevel. what I'm hoping is that a slack belt sander will be able to form to the curve of the bevel on this knife. i must disagree with u on the fact that tools make the job harder/more complicated. i don't know where i would be without my angle grinder, dermal, or drill press. You answered your own question, use the angle grinder.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2008 1:45:48 GMT
no no i plan to, i don't mean making the bevel i mean finishing it after i get done grinding and filing it. and when i say finishing it i mean starting the polishing step and getting all of the marks that are left over from the filing and bringing the edge from the heat treat thickness to sharp. i apologize if i I'm making this difficult ill try to make a few pics to better explain.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2008 2:01:38 GMT
Yes that is what I was answering, angle grinder. Take it up to the available 120 grit angle grinder disc, then hand sand. You don't have a belt grinder that has higher grits available, so that is what you have to do.
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