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Post by Robert in California on Oct 16, 2021 18:48:16 GMT
Why did leaf blade swords go out of style? Later swords getting straight and longer. Was it that the very leaf shape imposes a practical maximum length due to weight? Thanks, RinC
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Post by pellius on Oct 16, 2021 18:53:49 GMT
*Sting leaves the conversation*
😊
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Andy54Hawken
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Post by Andy54Hawken on Oct 17, 2021 0:34:34 GMT
I am guessing here that it was a combination of :
Fighting style / changes in tactics...
Changes in metal working techniques / methods / material...
Culture / Fashion...kinda like fins on American cars of the 1950's...
Again since the use of the sword was well before my time in the army...the above are only guesses. Andy
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Andy54Hawken
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Post by Andy54Hawken on Oct 17, 2021 0:36:14 GMT
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AndiTheBarvarian
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Oct 17, 2021 2:27:03 GMT
The latest leafe blade "sword" I'm aware of in the moment is the early Roman gladius but the principle "broader and thinner foible" remained much longer for dedicated cutting blades like scimitars, falchions, messers, sabers (Brit 1796 LC). So it seems that leaf blades are unpractical for long double edged blades that are designed for thrusting esp. through armor, probably because they aren't stiff enough.
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Post by pellius on Oct 17, 2021 2:33:44 GMT
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Post by legacyofthesword on Oct 17, 2021 3:23:21 GMT
I believe it had something to do with the leaf blade shape being developed specifically for bronze swords, as bronze bends easier than heat treated steel, hence the need for a special structural design. Iron/steel swords with a dedicated leaf shape blade were usually a progression from bronze swords; in other words, people used the designs that had worked on bronze swords to make early iron/steel swords, but later developed blade designs that worked better in steel, hence leaf blades went the way of the dinosaur.
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Post by durinnmcfurren on Oct 17, 2021 3:38:07 GMT
Here is my guess.
As has been pointed out, it's not that leaf shapes totally went away, but they did become much rarer. I think the question is 'Why did the two edged sword of Europe change from the leaf shape in the bronze age to the tapering spatha-shaped blade and then the even greater taper of the arming sword?'
I think the main reason is materials and the way a sword is used. The Romans liked thrusting. So they did not need a leaf shape. The main thing a leaf shape gives you is that it moves the center of balance further from your hand, which means you can get more rotational inertia/energy into a blow.
But why would the cut centric northern Europeans not bring it back? Why did they continue to build off the spatha? I think it is because good iron and then steel enabled the production of longer swords, and these longer swords already had the point of balance and the moment of inertia about where they wanted them. You'll notice that a widening blade remains mostly a thing on shorter blades like kukris, or single edged swords.
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AndiTheBarvarian
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Oct 17, 2021 4:24:54 GMT
Here's an older thread with some information: sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/58579/leaf-bladed-swords-created-firstAfaik leaf blades dont have more mass in the broad foible, they're also thinner there. Historical double edged leaf blade swords were more or less all short swords, from bronze age to early Roman Empire. So this design obviously increases the cutting/slashing ability of a short sword without sacrificing too much thrusting ability. Longer swords like spathae didn't need the additional cutting power but would become too fragile in the foible and not stiff enough. It still worked with single edge blades, even longer ones.
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Post by legacyofthesword on Oct 18, 2021 23:05:03 GMT
Here's an older thread with some information: sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/58579/leaf-bladed-swords-created-firstAfaik leaf blades dont have more mass in the broad foible, they're also thinner there. Historical double edged leaf blade swords were more or less all short swords, from bronze age to early Roman Empire. So this design obviously increases the cutting/slashing ability of a short sword without sacrificing too much thrusting ability. Longer swords like spathae didn't need the additional cutting power but would become too fragile in the foible and not stiff enough. It still worked with single edge blades, even longer ones. Yep, that's the thread I was basing my previous post off of. Timo said it first, and better than I could: Leaf blades appear when swords were still being made with bronze. Bronze swords were typically lightweight - often short, often thin, and often with weight-saving blade geometries (which, since these were cast, didn't need to be forged/cut). For good cutting, a thin blade is good. Some width is needed, for strength and also to have sufficient weight behind the blow (which doesn't mean a lot of weight, just enough weight). However, bronze isn't as stiff as iron/steel - its elastic modulus (Young's modulus) is about half that of iron/steel. So, for a given thickness and width, a bronze blade bends more easily than an iron/steel blade. An easy solution is to make the blade thicker: thick = stiff. To avoid excess weight, make the thick part of the blade narrower. Combine a thick narrow base of the blade (for stiffness) with a thin wide cutting portion (for good cutting), and you have a eaf-blade. Historical leaf-blades are usually thin-tipped and light. They aren't heavy hackers/choppers. Rather than "forget about fast slashing attacks", they're all about fast slashing attacks. (19th century artillery gladii don't follow this pattern - they're made as brush-cutters, and IMO are poor fighting weapons.) The basic idea of thick narrow base and thin wide cutting portion stayed in use. It largely disappeared from straight double-edged swords, but can still be seen in some falchions, in kukris, in niuweidao/oxtail dao, the British 1796LC sword, and others. In many of these swords, the wide portion of the blade is about 1mm thick - these swords aren't heavy choppers. (The kukri shows that this is relative, since the main cutting part isn't particularly thin, just much thinner than the base of the blade.) The stiff base of the blade also makes them better for thrusting than a blade that's thin and wide all the way. There are exceptions. Some bronze blades are only a little thinner at the wide portion than at the base. In these cases, the base is not particularly thick, and perhaps the idea of a thicker base for more stiffness for better thrusting wasn't felt necessary. Also in these cases, the weapon is still light, perhaps about 600g for a weapon of 24"/60cm total length. At these weights and lengths, the weapon is still agile even with a thickness of, e.g., 5mm at the widest point.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Oct 22, 2021 21:43:50 GMT
I agree with the materials limitations being a factor. But let's not forget that swords were also designed for aesthetic reasons. Perhaps the wasp waist/ leaf blade design came and went over the centuries due to fashion as much as it was because of materials and tactics.
I remember seeing a paper on this subject done by a museum somewhere, but I can't for the life of me find it right now. I remember it did talk about the softness of the bronze (most of those swords could only be used once or twice before they bent so badly they had to be repaired), but also the leaf shape having a religious meaning behind it. If only I could find that paper again then I suspect most of our questions would be answered.
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Post by soulfromheart on Oct 22, 2021 23:08:13 GMT
If I understood clearly, the advantages of a leaf-shaped blade become less the more we extend the blade (and taking into account that curved swords basically keep these advantages albeit with one single edge) ? Speaking of bronze swords...I don't remember ever seeing a xiphos made by Neil Burridge ( his site), is the "iconic" leaf-shaped blade actually not a good example of bronze age swords ?
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Post by blackjack on Dec 29, 2023 6:03:53 GMT
Sorry to zombie this. But I was wondering the same thing. I think one reason may be that Bronze is actually cast, so a complex symmetrical shape like a leaf blade would be easier to execute in bronze than in steel. Second I think you can actually make a steel blade longer because it is stronger than bronze, but you don't want your longer blade to be any heavier if you can help it so to keep the weight down you make the blade straighter.
Just a thought.
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AndiTheBarvarian
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Dec 29, 2023 6:27:02 GMT
Yup!
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