|
Post by wstalcup on Sept 4, 2019 22:59:12 GMT
I've been searching for a leaf blade sword.. just for something different, but then got curious why they were invented in the first place and why did they seem to fade away prior medieval times? My guess is that the design serves fairly well for hacking and outclassed a gladius in hacking/slashing attacks, but inferior to a fast gladius thrust pierce attack. Also but maybe a leaf blade could serve a dual purpose in chopping wood if an axe wasn't handy? As time went on, swords seemed to get longer, in that case, i'd presume a long leaf sword would fail. too hard to swing and forget about fast slashing attacks.. so warfare evolved and made them obsolete? Thanks for any info you might know about the history of them!
|
|
|
Post by Timo Nieminen on Sept 4, 2019 23:32:12 GMT
Leaf blades appear when swords were still being made with bronze. Bronze swords were typically lightweight - often short, often thin, and often with weight-saving blade geometries (which, since these were cast, didn't need to be forged/cut). For good cutting, a thin blade is good. Some width is needed, for strength and also to have sufficient weight behind the blow (which doesn't mean a lot of weight, just enough weight).
However, bronze isn't as stiff as iron/steel - its elastic modulus (Young's modulus) is about half that of iron/steel. So, for a given thickness and width, a bronze blade bends more easily than an iron/steel blade. An easy solution is to make the blade thicker: thick = stiff. To avoid excess weight, make the thick part of the blade narrower.
Combine a thick narrow base of the blade (for stiffness) with a thin wide cutting portion (for good cutting), and you have a eaf-blade.
Historical leaf-blades are usually thin-tipped and light. They aren't heavy hackers/choppers. Rather than "forget about fast slashing attacks", they're all about fast slashing attacks. (19th century artillery gladii don't follow this pattern - they're made as brush-cutters, and IMO are poor fighting weapons.)
The basic idea of thick narrow base and thin wide cutting portion stayed in use. It largely disappeared from straight double-edged swords, but can still be seen in some falchions, in kukris, in niuweidao/oxtail dao, the British 1796LC sword, and others. In many of these swords, the wide portion of the blade is about 1mm thick - these swords aren't heavy choppers. (The kukri shows that this is relative, since the main cutting part isn't particularly thin, just much thinner than the base of the blade.)
The stiff base of the blade also makes them better for thrusting than a blade that's thin and wide all the way.
There are exceptions. Some bronze blades are only a little thinner at the wide portion than at the base. In these cases, the base is not particularly thick, and perhaps the idea of a thicker base for more stiffness for better thrusting wasn't felt necessary. Also in these cases, the weapon is still light, perhaps about 600g for a weapon of 24"/60cm total length. At these weights and lengths, the weapon is still agile even with a thickness of, e.g., 5mm at the widest point.
|
|
|
Post by MOK on Sept 5, 2019 0:13:20 GMT
Waisted, leaf-shaped blades were mostly a bronze age thing, and predate the gladius by a thousand years. The early Roman gladius itself was also a leaf-bladed sword, at that, originally a direct descendant of the Hellenic xiphos but beginning after the second Punic war taking more inspiration from the shorter and stockier Iberian weapons they called gladius hispaniensis (i.e. "Spanish sword"); later patterns, commonly referred to as Fulham and Pompeii types, were made more angular and lost the leaf shape (probably for ease of production and standardization). Having the blade grow broader towards the point moves the weight forward, which makes for more powerful edge blows without increasing the sword's overall weight; having it then taper to a sharp point allows effective thrusts (unlike, say, most goloks and machetes), and the resulting wound is made wider by the broad blade. It's a shape that makes quite a bit of sense in a short blade. It also allows a very thick base to support a very thin cutting portion, which was great for bronze blades and still somewhat useful even with steel. I wouldn't want to chop wood with a gladius, or most other swords, for that matter - you can, in an emergency, but you risk damaging the blade and ruining it as a weapon. That said, there is an entire family of 19th Century leaf-bladed artillery swords, or fascine knives, actually designed for clearing brush and other light field work that artillerymen often had to do, most famously the French 1816 and US 1832 models. I think you're mostly right in that warfare, and technological and cultural circumstances in general, simply changed to favor different types of sidearm. It's not really that a leaf-blade would be too cumbersome if made longer - there are plenty of modern fantasy swords with long leaf-shaped blades that are perfectly functional - but you can get a longer blade out of the same amount of metal if you don't use the leaf shape. Logistics are a big, arguably THE BIGGEST, thing in warfare. But then, there are also plenty of leaf-shaped blades that have stayed in use up until the modern day! The Nepalese Kukri, the Indonesian Barong, the WWII Smatchet etc. PS. Mostly ninja'd, damnit. Why are you even up at this hour?!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2019 0:28:12 GMT
It's curious that the leaf shape did not transcend the bronze age. It's a great compromise design.
|
|
|
Post by Timo Nieminen on Sept 5, 2019 1:05:41 GMT
PS. Mostly ninja'd, damnit. Why are you even up at this hour?! :p Slow lazy morning for me. Having a break from writing for my 2nd cup of coffee at 10am. Perfectly reasonable time to be awake - I'm not a sleep-until-2pm university student (and even when I was a university student, I didn't sleep in until 2pm).
|
|
|
Post by Timo Nieminen on Sept 5, 2019 1:37:32 GMT
It's curious that the leaf shape did not transcend the bronze age. It's a great compromise design. Often, the iron leaf-blades were less leafy, but there were still leaf-blades: They even made it into recent times, still being used as fighting weapons in the 19th century:
|
|
|
Post by MOK on Sept 5, 2019 8:15:47 GMT
It's curious that the leaf shape did not transcend the bronze age. It's a great compromise design. But it did! Most xiphoi and all gladii were already made of iron, and there are plenty of Celtic iron leaf-blades from before and after those, too. Not to even mention all the African and South-East Asian ones. The waisted leaf shape was all but abandoned in Europe before the Middle Ages, but that happened long after the adoption of ironworking.
|
|
AndiTheBarvarian
Member
Bavarianbarbarian - Semper Semprini
Posts: 9,759
Member is Online
|
Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Sept 5, 2019 9:55:48 GMT
Are there any longer swords with leaf blades than the max. ca. 22"/55cm long bronze swords, xiphos, gladii? Many fantasy longswords with leaf blade, but were there any real long swords with?
|
|
|
Post by Timo Nieminen on Sept 5, 2019 11:15:38 GMT
|
|
AndiTheBarvarian
Member
Bavarianbarbarian - Semper Semprini
Posts: 9,759
Member is Online
|
Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Sept 5, 2019 12:44:05 GMT
Cool, thanks! The massai blade makes me think of certain african spears only with a short handle, is this a thrusting weapon like the boar sword? Both seem to have the broad tip section to make wider and deadlier wounds with thrusting, not for cutting. The bronze sword with a 59 cm blade isn't really a longsword. The khanda is a cutter I think and has a longer blade. But somehow it's not a pattern for the fantasy leafbladed longswords.
|
|
|
Post by wstalcup on Sept 5, 2019 13:33:18 GMT
wow, unbe"leaf"able! thanks so much everyone for the info! It would have been interesting to see what would have happened, that if during medieval times an army would have armed at least a few of their warriors with leaf blades or something radically different than what was the 'norm' of that age. Doing this, may have possibly surprise the enemy with attacks that they were unfamiliar in defending against?
|
|
|
Post by Timo Nieminen on Sept 5, 2019 13:41:01 GMT
The massai blade makes me think of certain african spears only with a short handle, is this a thrusting weapon like the boar sword? I've not seen those Maasai swords in use. I have heard that they're cutting weapons, mainly (and recent ones are often made from machete blades). Yes, their blades are much like the heads of the long-bladed lion spears, and they would work for thrusting. fantasy leafbladed longswords. I don't know of any historical examples of those. (The boar swords above are the closest I know of.) Medieval and later European wide-tipped swords are usually single-edged and single-handed. Same for Asian swords, too.
|
|
|
Post by Timo Nieminen on Sept 5, 2019 13:47:16 GMT
It would have been interesting to see what would have happened, that if during medieval times an army would have armed at least a few of their warriors with leaf blades or something radically different than what was the 'norm' of that age. Doing this, may have possibly surprise the enemy with attacks that they were unfamiliar in defending against? A leaf blade wouldn't give radically different attacks. Cut and thrust with leaf blade won't surprise anybody who wouldn't be surprised by cuts and thrusts with other straight double-edged swords of similar length. Maybe you can give somebody a rude shock with something like this: (It's an early 19th century cavalry sword, designed for hamstringing horses.)
|
|
|
Post by wstalcup on Sept 5, 2019 14:09:23 GMT
LOL!! now that just crazy! poor horse though...
my fantasy sword would have ruled them all (yah..its dumb.. its supposed to be)
Designed for: Pretentious accessory-crazed barbarian... err.. any warrior with a high fashion sense!
* Built from reclaimed swords for the environmentally conscious! * Comes with a Sticker Sheet so you can record your kills on the fuller! * Ricasso grip so can throw it at the last remaining enemy! * Pommel unscrews revealing a small storage area to hide your weed.. I mean... lunch money! * Partially serrated edges to saw those pesky locks on treasure chests * Blade will glow if that hot wench in the local tavern is really a dude!
Cost: 300 shillings, 20 gold coins or flagon of mead
|
|
AndiTheBarvarian
Member
Bavarianbarbarian - Semper Semprini
Posts: 9,759
Member is Online
|
Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Sept 5, 2019 14:41:52 GMT
Crom!
|
|
|
Post by snowbite on Sept 5, 2019 15:54:02 GMT
wstalcup that cracked me up. Thanks for the laugh! I especially like the stickers
|
|
|
Post by wstalcup on Sept 5, 2019 16:24:11 GMT
wstalcup that cracked me up. Thanks for the laugh! I especially like the stickers thanks! additional stickers available for purchase are: mother-in-law, boss, lawyer, DMV personnel, serial killer, pedophile, sword-hater and NY Mets fan.
|
|
|
Post by wstalcup on Sept 5, 2019 16:29:47 GMT
seriously though.. anyone know if there ever were any warriors that put a notch or something on their weapons for recorded kills? some of those peeps i'd expect really had bloodlust and probably proud of how many they murdered...
|
|
|
Post by bebut on Sept 5, 2019 16:36:38 GMT
Remember that short swords like the gladius were only half a weapon, the other half was the shield. As time went on, more swords were used for calvary and needed to be longer and single edge swords could be made lighter and cheaper. I think the move from the elegant waist shaped gladius to the more straight edged gladius and qama was a bean counter thing--they were cheaper to make, stabbed just as well and slashed almost as well.
I have a couple Lakonias and find them quite elegant and with the adbvantage they have more sharpened edge than a single edged sword. I will probably buy some more Greek swords for the esthetics, but my HD swords are single edged and a little longer.
|
|
|
Post by wlewisiii on Sept 5, 2019 18:13:27 GMT
It's curious that the leaf shape did not transcend the bronze age. It's a great compromise design. I have a beautiful steel leaf blade hanging on my wall not 10 feet from me Made by our own L. Driggers it's an exquisite piece.
|
|