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Post by L Driggers (fallen) on Oct 16, 2021 4:40:31 GMT
The first picture is a bad forge weld, I'd have to see it in hand. The OP says their nail doesn't catch on it, and the enlarged photos look to me like cementite structures. Compare it with some of the structures near the habaki that can't possibly be cracks. Note that the whole hamon area is rich in ara-nie, and the blade looks very nie-deki. Crystals everywhere they could form.
How many blades have you forged.
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Post by raf on Oct 16, 2021 4:45:22 GMT
I'd like to add that the crack-like structures color on the first pic (as most others on those pictures) is actually silver-ish in color, not dark. Fingernail does not catch anywhere on the blade.
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Post by treeslicer on Oct 16, 2021 5:04:23 GMT
I'd have to see it in hand. The OP says their nail doesn't catch on it, and the enlarged photos look to me like cementite structures. Compare it with some of the structures near the habaki that can't possibly be cracks. Note that the whole hamon area is rich in ara-nie, and the blade looks very nie-deki. Crystals everywhere they could form.
How many blades have you forged. Enough to know the difference between a failed weld or a quench crack, and what we are seeing here.
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Post by raf on Oct 17, 2021 7:20:19 GMT
I do believe at this point that the supposed "cracks" might indeed be just the pattern in the hamon, as the vendor said. Katanas are indeed a science on their own it seems
Any idea about the dark / shiny spot at the yokote edge? (appears dark under most light conditions, can appear shiny though under some).
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Post by treeslicer on Oct 17, 2021 23:32:26 GMT
I do believe at this point that the supposed "cracks" might indeed be just the pattern in the hamon, as the vendor said. Katanas are indeed a science on their own it seems
Any idea about the dark / shiny spot at the yokote edge? (appears dark under most light conditions, can appear shiny though under some). IMHO, the use of this "K120C" (some proprietary designation) powder steel in a folded DH blade is producing some unusual crystal formations, compared to folded 1060, 1095/T10, or tamahagane. An example is that odd closed loop up by the habaki. I suspect that the spot is another example. I wish you could get the thing under a microscope. Steel made using the powder method will have grain differences from the more conventional stuff.
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Post by raf on Oct 18, 2021 15:56:27 GMT
Got an interesting reply in another forum from someone who apparently owned a few Hanwei swords. He says that this can happen on their swords and may be caused by a not perfectly fitting saya (or something in the saya) rubbing off the "frost etch" they apparently use.
I'm now more unsure than ever if this sword is a keeper with a minor flaw that doesn't matter at all, or a lemon with what would be a sort of defect.
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Post by nddave on Oct 18, 2021 16:12:32 GMT
Got an interesting reply in another forum from someone who apparently owned a few Hanwei swords. He says that this can happen on their swords and may be caused by a not perfectly fitting saya (or something in the saya) rubbing off the "frost etch" they apparently use.
I'm now more unsure than ever if this sword is a keeper with a minor flaw that doesn't matter at all, or a lemon with what would be a sort of defect.
Well you need to ask yourself what's the expectations of use you have for the sword? Primarily display? I'd say keep it. Casual medium to light cutting? Keep it. Heavy cutting and frequent Dojo use? If the issues are simply cosmetic as mentioned then it's going to get roughed up anyway regarding the polish, but if these are actual grain structure flaws then these could cause the blade to fail in this setting. Basically in my opinion you have a model of a very sought after and popular discontinued Hanwei model. Look at the rest of the fit and finish and decide if the overall sword is worth keeping for that alone. For example how's the saya fit? Tsuka fit? Tsuba and other koshirea flush and tight? Tsukamaki even and tight? If it's a yes to all those and again the function of use is either primarily display and casual use then I myself would keep it and not let a few possibly minor blade blemishes ruin my enjoyment of one of the nicer discontinued production Hanwei. Another thing to remember is even though this sword is higher priced it's still a production piece and much like an Albion or even other high end production Japanese swords there will be production flaws expected even in the higher end models. The koshirea alone is worth more than most mid level production katana so even if you kept it for display and collectors value alone it will have value.
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Post by raf on Oct 18, 2021 17:03:55 GMT
I did not feel anything loose so far (will re-check on occasion), but now that you mention it, I need to push the Katana quite a bit into the saya for the last quarter inch or so, else it won't fully go in. So the fit is very tight. I assumed this is intentional to prevent it from easily dropping out, but maybe that's where it rubs in the yokote area inside the saya? I had a small wood slate or two stick on the blade when drawing it so far, but also assumed this is normal. What I was looking for: A beautiful, displayable, "real" Katana (so not a wall-hanger that would break from looking at it) which would actually be usable. Why the Kami? Because I saw this sword online 20 years ago and wanted it since then, it's basically a teenage dream of mine The blade just always looked right to me, not too bent, the angle of the grip looked good, the bo-hi, o-kissaki - just pretty in all regards. I bought it now because I noticed I'm a bit late to the party and it's increasingly hard to get.
Regarding my use case - *at the moment* it's none really. It's my first Katana and my experience goes towards zero, the little bits I do know are basically from some reading online and a bunch of Youtube videos. And, of course, in the recent days from this thread here and searching the internet a lot Maybe I will get deeper into it and start training at a later point, with a cheaper blade of course. My expectation at this price point would still be a fully functional and normally durable sword. Question is: How to find out?
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Post by treeslicer on Oct 18, 2021 17:58:55 GMT
I did not feel anything loose so far (will re-check on occasion), but now that you mention it, I need to push the Katana quite a bit into the saya for the last quarter inch or so, else it won't fully go in. So the fit is very tight. I assumed this is intentional to prevent it from easily dropping out, but maybe that's where it rubs in the yokote area inside the saya? I had a small wood slate or two stick on the blade when drawing it so far, but also assumed this is normal. What I was looking for: A beautiful, displayable, "real" Katana (so not a wall-hanger that would break from looking at it) which would actually be usable. Why the Kami? Because I saw this sword online 20 years ago and wanted it since then, it's basically a teenage dream of mine The blade just always looked right to me, not too bent, the angle of the grip looked good, the bo-hi, o-kissaki - just pretty in all regards. I bought it now because I noticed I'm a bit late to the party and it's increasingly hard to get.
Regarding my use case - *at the moment* it's none really. It's my first Katana and my experience goes towards zero, the little bits I do know are basically from some reading online and a bunch of Youtube videos. And, of course, in the recent days from this thread here and searching the internet a lot Maybe I will get deeper into it and start training at a later point, with a cheaper blade of course. My expectation at this price point would still be a fully functional and normally durable sword. Question is: How to find out?
IMHO, take it to a nihonto specialist and get the hamon examined by a pro.
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Post by raf on Oct 18, 2021 18:09:34 GMT
I did not feel anything loose so far (will re-check on occasion), but now that you mention it, I need to push the Katana quite a bit into the saya for the last quarter inch or so, else it won't fully go in. So the fit is very tight. I assumed this is intentional to prevent it from easily dropping out, but maybe that's where it rubs in the yokote area inside the saya? I had a small wood slate or two stick on the blade when drawing it so far, but also assumed this is normal. What I was looking for: A beautiful, displayable, "real" Katana (so not a wall-hanger that would break from looking at it) which would actually be usable. Why the Kami? Because I saw this sword online 20 years ago and wanted it since then, it's basically a teenage dream of mine The blade just always looked right to me, not too bent, the angle of the grip looked good, the bo-hi, o-kissaki - just pretty in all regards. I bought it now because I noticed I'm a bit late to the party and it's increasingly hard to get.
Regarding my use case - *at the moment* it's none really. It's my first Katana and my experience goes towards zero, the little bits I do know are basically from some reading online and a bunch of Youtube videos. And, of course, in the recent days from this thread here and searching the internet a lot Maybe I will get deeper into it and start training at a later point, with a cheaper blade of course. My expectation at this price point would still be a fully functional and normally durable sword. Question is: How to find out?
IMHO, take it to a nihonto specialist and get the hamon examined by a pro. Would agree, if there was such a thing here (or at least I'm not aware of it). The best place I would know would be a knife store that also manufactures knives and swords on request, but I have my doubts if that is the right place to ask such a specific thing? Maybe should give them a call I guess. Everything else I can find is just related to sports.
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Post by treeslicer on Oct 18, 2021 23:52:12 GMT
IMHO, take it to a nihonto specialist and get the hamon examined by a pro. Would agree, if there was such a thing here (or at least I'm not aware of it). The best place I would know would be a knife store that also manufactures knives and swords on request, but I have my doubts if that is the right place to ask such a specific thing? Maybe should give them a call I guess. Everything else I can find is just related to sports. No, if you can't find a connoisseur to ask, leave it alone. This is a specialized area of interpretation. Someone could have made and handled thousands of ordinary blades, and still not know anything specific about nihonto or the close reproductions of them.
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Post by nddave on Oct 19, 2021 0:51:41 GMT
I did not feel anything loose so far (will re-check on occasion), but now that you mention it, I need to push the Katana quite a bit into the saya for the last quarter inch or so, else it won't fully go in. So the fit is very tight. I assumed this is intentional to prevent it from easily dropping out, but maybe that's where it rubs in the yokote area inside the saya? I had a small wood slate or two stick on the blade when drawing it so far, but also assumed this is normal. What I was looking for: A beautiful, displayable, "real" Katana (so not a wall-hanger that would break from looking at it) which would actually be usable. Why the Kami? Because I saw this sword online 20 years ago and wanted it since then, it's basically a teenage dream of mine The blade just always looked right to me, not too bent, the angle of the grip looked good, the bo-hi, o-kissaki - just pretty in all regards. I bought it now because I noticed I'm a bit late to the party and it's increasingly hard to get.
Regarding my use case - *at the moment* it's none really. It's my first Katana and my experience goes towards zero, the little bits I do know are basically from some reading online and a bunch of Youtube videos. And, of course, in the recent days from this thread here and searching the internet a lot Maybe I will get deeper into it and start training at a later point, with a cheaper blade of course. My expectation at this price point would still be a fully functional and normally durable sword. Question is: How to find out?
Sounds to me like its worth keeping then honestly. Even if it has a structural flaw, if your primary purpose is display and owning that specific sword then you're set. I know well all want to think of our swords as infallible but eventually even a masterwork sword will fail in time. In that regard. Swords are basically tools and the longer we don't use them the prettier they stay. If you really want to find out if the blade is structurally flawed sending it to an expert is basically the only route to go. But that in itself will be a cost and should reflect your overall investment. In my opinion you got a bucket list sword from 20 years ago that appears to have solid fit and finish with a potential flaw that would really only effect it performance if regularly used in frequent and med-heavy cutting. I say don't sweat the imperfections and enjoy the sword. Again these are production swords and perfection should never be expected in production models even the expensive ones.
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Post by raf on Oct 19, 2021 3:33:25 GMT
I personally believe that the sword is fine, apart from the dark spot at the yokote, which indeed does look like something rubbed a bit too often or too hard against it (it might basically be the equivalent of fine scratches). If this weren't there, I'd probably not even think twice. Maybe my expectations were indeed a bit too high for a "factory sword", I basically hoped to find an absolutely flawless and perfect piece of steel there. Also noticed the darker (copper?) part of the habaki showing a few signs of work / wear / abuse. But that's just a piece of copper after all. To be fair, if these kind of flaws are normal and expected, even for a 1600€ sword, I think I can accept it as being flawed in some regards, just like I am
I now oiled the thing with gun oil* and put it in the sword bag that came with it, where it found a nice spot in my gun locker. Don't have anything for display yet, but I'm also not sure if I even should, as the room is rather humid at times, while the gun locker has dehumidifiers inside (a direct consequence of me managing to get rust on a shotgun).
*Side note: Gun oils are partially made to clear copper residues in barrels, so I feel only kind-of comfortable with having this stuff on a blade with a seemingly copper habaki. I will see if I can find a different oil, but for now it'll do.
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Post by eastman on Oct 20, 2021 2:16:39 GMT
the oils aren't designed to remove copper, bore cleaners (with ammonia in the formulation) are designed to remove copper
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Post by raf on Oct 20, 2021 3:02:30 GMT
the oils aren't designed to remove copper, bore cleaners (with ammonia in the formulation) are designed to remove copper Brunox Turbo Spray is common gun oil here and does not contain ammonia, still also acts as bore cleaner. It's what I used, since I don't have anything else other than actual grease.
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Post by nddave on Oct 20, 2021 14:33:31 GMT
the oils aren't designed to remove copper, bore cleaners (with ammonia in the formulation) are designed to remove copper Brunox Turbo Spray is common gun oil here and does not contain ammonia, still also acts as bore cleaner. It's what I used, since I don't have anything else other than actual grease.
3in1 oil works fine and is easily found just about anywhere that offers hardware items.
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Post by eastman on Oct 21, 2021 1:28:23 GMT
the oils aren't designed to remove copper, bore cleaners (with ammonia in the formulation) are designed to remove copper Brunox Turbo Spray is common gun oil here and does not contain ammonia, still also acts as bore cleaner. It's what I used, since I don't have anything else other than actual grease.
looking at the product info, Brunox Turbo looks to be a penetrating oil similar to Kroil or Seafoam DeepCreep. There shouldn't be anything in the formulation to attack copper.
if it removes copper fouling from a gun barrel (or lead fouling), it is because it uses capillary action to creep between the dissimilar metals, same mechanism as Kroil or DeepCreep.
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Post by raf on Oct 21, 2021 8:23:42 GMT
Brunox Turbo Spray is common gun oil here and does not contain ammonia, still also acts as bore cleaner. It's what I used, since I don't have anything else other than actual grease.
looking at the product info, Brunox Turbo looks to be a penetrating oil similar to Kroil or Seafoam DeepCreep. There shouldn't be anything in the formulation to attack copper.
if it removes copper fouling from a gun barrel (or lead fouling), it is because it uses capillary action to creep between the dissimilar metals, same mechanism as Kroil or DeepCreep.
I guess the product info on some sites can be misleading then:
Dissolves grease, tar, sticky residue, powder, lead, copper and tombac residues
It is indeed listed as penetrating oil on the same site.
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pgandy
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Senior Forumite
Posts: 10,296
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Post by pgandy on Oct 21, 2021 12:35:16 GMT
It sounds as though you are sold on Brunox Turbo Spray and I’m not suggesting you change. We all have our pet whatever. Keep in mind 3-in-one as has been mentioned is a good choice. But isn’t sold in my country. We do have one that smells and acts like 3 in 1 that I’ve been using. Also mineral oil is an option. But I think with whatever you use there’s no need to worry as long as something is used. Storing in a dehumidified safe is an added measure. The only other thing I can think of is a low watt light bulb in the safe. And that would be for mould that sometimes attacks leather, such as rifle slings.
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Post by raf on Oct 22, 2021 2:27:29 GMT
Not sold on it at all, it's just horribly common here.
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