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Post by RufusScorpius on Aug 25, 2021 13:33:04 GMT
Maybe we can advance our technology to the point where technology is holding us back.
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Post by Paul Muad’Dib on Aug 25, 2021 14:22:44 GMT
My issue is that the AI can be hacked. They can even fail. Who writes the AI programs? Humans. How perfect are humans? Not even ten percent there. Also, AI driven vehicles put humans out of work. AI flown aircraft put humans out of work. AI controlled machines put humans out of work. The more automation spreads the more jobs are taken from humans. That is the way I see it. I am not against machines that help humans do their jobs easier. I just have an issue with them replacing humans. When the self check out stations first came out I said the same thing to a friend. They could have four employees checking out customers. He responded with this, you have people building the machines and maintaining them also. So yes on losing some jobs but gaining other jobs. And like Zen said you can’t stop progress. Whether it be a boon to society or a bane.
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Zen_Hydra
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Born with a heart full of neutrality
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Post by Zen_Hydra on Aug 25, 2021 15:45:44 GMT
Maybe we can advance our technology to the point where technology is holding us back. Maybe, but the old sci-fi trope of evolving into beings of light (e.g. your ST clip above, and Childhood's End) is eyerollingly silly. I do think that humanity can potentially get to a point where we have integrated our technology to the point that our organic components will be only a single aspect of what we come to consider the whole of our being. Imagine being able to integrate remote processing and storage seamlessly with our meat brains, and receiving direct sensory input from a vast variety of inorganic sources. What would it be like to have a mass spectrometer integrated to the point that its output was indistinguishable from our organically evolved senses? If you are comprised of a network of organic and inorganic nodes, would the sense of self survive the "death" of any one of those nodes? In such a configuration would your continuity of consciousness persist past the death of your meat body if the other nodes redundantly filled the same roles as your original brain (including the neuroplasticity of the meat brain which allowed for this integration in the first place)?
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tera
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Post by tera on Aug 25, 2021 15:51:54 GMT
My issue is that the AI can be hacked. They can even fail. Who writes the AI programs? Humans. How perfect are humans? Not even ten percent there. Also, AI driven vehicles put humans out of work. AI flown aircraft put humans out of work. AI controlled machines put humans out of work. The more automation spreads the more jobs are taken from humans. That is the way I see it. I am not against machines that help humans do their jobs easier. I just have an issue with them replacing humans. You aren't wrong. Human flaws are why jobs as sofware Developers/Testers and anything in cybersecurity are pretty stable. You have to always be learning or you become obsolete, but if you stay up on things there will always be a job for you. As far as replacing jobs, manually operated elevators were before my time but it is still illegal to pump your own gas in NJ as far as I know. Unions of elevator workers kept them going even when push buttons were added, but they finally disappeared. NJ has a job market for people to pump your gas for you, whether you want "full service" or not. I remember having to teach a friend in college how to pump her own gas because she came from NJ. But while most of us may agree that those jobs don't need to exist, there are present ones that we may argue are important. Think of all the people working in a grocery store for their pick-up and delivery services: Well, for now they still need people to stock the slots the robots pull from, clear malfunctions, and maintain the robots but robot maintenance isn't an entry level summer job. You need more advanced knowledge to fill some of the roles replacing others. But delivery drivers are safe, right? selfdrivingdelivery.dominos.com/enWe have talked about autonomous vehicles before, but Domino's is actually testing some for pizza delivery. Pair these with the robot grocery store and you have a very convenient world for us all to live in. That is, as long as the systems keep working and we can find jobs that can't be automated. There is one big job sector I've seen continue to grow despite efforts to automate it. Customer service/tech support/call centers in general. So as not to go on forever, I'll limit to Customer service for now. Nobody wants to talk to a robot or leave a voice message when they are upset. So, we are increasingly an impatient, "I want it and I want it now" society that drops any sense of courtesy when a customer service problem comes up, yet more and more of us are finding that the most or only available job. The irony of people HATING their work because people are awful to them when they, themselves, are awful when they the need to call customer service. This is especially big right now with the home delivery services available (Amazon, Walmart, Meijer, Kroger, UberEats, DoorDash, etc.) that enable a work-from-home lifestyle during the pandemic. Check Indeed or any other job listing site and see the flood of customer support agent listings.
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Post by Paul Muad’Dib on Aug 25, 2021 16:47:04 GMT
tera, I remember the reason for NJ changing from self pump to attendant pump. Some dumb*ss woman drove off with the pump handle still in the gas tank fill tube of her car. This was before they had the disconnect coupling on the hose. Gas everywhere. They changed the law real quick. I am old enough to remember one or two attendants coming to my mom’s car and putting gas in, checking the oil and washing the windshield. Ah, the good old days. Sound like the old fart that I am. 😏
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Post by RufusScorpius on Aug 25, 2021 16:49:38 GMT
Maybe we can advance our technology to the point where technology is holding us back. Maybe, but the old sci-fi trope of evolving into beings of light (e.g. your ST clip above, and Childhood's End) is eyerollingly silly. I do think that humanity can potentially get to a point where we have integrated our technology to the point that our organic components will be only a single aspect of what we come to consider the whole of our being. Imagine being able to integrate remote processing and storage seamlessly with our meat brains, and receiving direct sensory input from a vast variety of inorganic sources. What would it be like to have a mass spectrometer integrated to the point that its output was indistinguishable from our organically evolved senses? If you are comprised of a network of organic and inorganic nodes, would the sense of self survive the "death" of any one of those nodes? In such a configuration would your continuity of consciousness persist past the death of your meat body if the other nodes redundantly filled the same roles as your original brain (including the neuroplasticity of the meat brain which allowed for this integration in the first place)? Or we could evolve past technology. To not be able to imagine it is an eyerollingly limited and narrow outlook on "science fiction". After all, who and what we are now is nothing more than light that was compressed and morphed at the beginning of everything. Now that compressed light is self aware and questioning it's own origins. Why is it not at least possible that this light, who is now questioning it's own existence from inside of a casing made of matter, can't someday become self-aware light in a non-corporeal form similar to that from which it was originally formed? But more importantly, how much of ourselves can we replace with technology before we cease to be ourselves? How much hardware replacement does it take to not be human anymore?
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AndiTheBarvarian
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"Lord of the Memes"
Bavarianbarbarian - Semper Semprini
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Aug 25, 2021 18:54:36 GMT
Ship of Theseus on humans? Wait, a barbarian has got there something for you!
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tera
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Post by tera on Aug 25, 2021 20:30:54 GMT
Well, here is a basic case that makes the argument we will have to extend what we define as "being human". I can have an app on my phone vibrate to alert me if a client's server goes down. Likewise, I can feel this distinct vibration pattern in my watch. This communicates information to me about the status of a web-facing server in such an naturally tactile way it is functionally indistinguishable from me noticing a raindrop on my skin.
Now, to be honest, I have been out of the MSP IT game for a while and I don't miss being that plugged in, but yes we have technologies to extend out awareness from this simple example to the vastly more complex.
To cite a Zen koan: "The five tones make a man deaf, the five colors make a man blind."
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Post by RufusScorpius on Aug 25, 2021 21:55:21 GMT
Fine, let's "philosify" "He who questions training, only trains himself at asking questions." Wisdom of the Sphinx
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2021 4:31:04 GMT
tera, I remember the reason for NJ changing from self pump to attendant pump. Some dumb*ss woman drove off with the pump handle still in the gas tank fill tube of her car. This was before they had the disconnect coupling on the hose. Gas everywhere. They changed the law real quick. I am old enough to remember one or two attendants coming to my mom’s car and putting gas in, checking the oil and washing the windshield. Ah, the good old days. Sound like the old fart that I am. 😏 I was a child in the last days of the gas station attendant. I remember them. I grew up when self service started to really get big in the 1980s. I am getting old too. 😿 😹😹😹😹
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tera
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Post by tera on Aug 26, 2021 15:58:10 GMT
The 80's had the best music and cartoons. I say be proud to remember them. Sure, we had the constant threat of global nuclear war, but we have a global pandemic now and pandemic don't care, so there's that.
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Post by Paul Muad’Dib on Aug 26, 2021 16:30:30 GMT
The 80's had the best music and cartoons. I say be proud to remember them. Sure, we had the constant threat of global nuclear war, but we have a global pandemic now and pandemic don't care, so there's that. I would have to respectfully disagree with your statement on 80s cartoons. That’s when they really started to emphasize educational and public messages in them. The sixties and seventies were the best cartoons. Gratuitous violence, stupid situations, adult humor for latter when you grew up AND no messages. Now music, I’m a child of the 60s & 70s and the music was great but just damn, the 80s did have some awesome music. Oh, and talking about the nuclear threat, it’s was still around in the 80s but did you ever get under your desk (yes like those old black and white films) for a nuclear bomb drill because everyone knows those old time school desks could protect you from nuclear bombs and radiation. I actually did that as a child in Los Angeles.
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tera
Moderator
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Post by tera on Aug 26, 2021 17:18:58 GMT
Actually yes, I do remember desk drills very young. The duck and cover cartoons weren't convincing even as a child.
More interestingly, many years after the Cold War ended, Russia declassified some of the old Soviet documentation and made it available to the UN and public at large. Turns out the city I grew up in was a tier 2 nuclear strike target. Tier 1 was major command/contol centers and high priority military targets. We had a lesser base with some weapons storage, so we were Tier 2. I believe that still would have put us in the first launch wave.
As for cartoons, I see your point, but I guess it is a matter of taste. The moral messages had their own charm, like every episode of GI Joe ending with some "real world" choice and one of their characters stepping in. Then we had Thundercats, TMNT, Duck Tales, and the start of Chip and Dale: Rescue Rangers. So much 'Murica.
I also remember all the D.A.R.E. propaganda, to include their logo and slogan being included on tons of arcade screens.
But, to stay on topic, the Cold War is related as despite not escalating to all-out insanity, it's not like nations were sitting on their hands. Technology in espionage really ramped up, and the 80's saw the real first boom of affordable computing devices entering homes. I still remember the warbling of my first dial-up model, and now I'm using a capacitive touch phone to post this to a crawler indexed forum. What an exciting time to be alive.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Aug 26, 2021 18:35:45 GMT
" When you can balance a tack hammer on your head, you will head off your foes with a balanced attack."
Sphinx
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Post by howler on Aug 26, 2021 20:21:14 GMT
The 80's had the best music and cartoons. I say be proud to remember them. Sure, we had the constant threat of global nuclear war, but we have a global pandemic now and pandemic don't care, so there's that. I would have to respectfully disagree with your statement on 80s cartoons. That’s when they really started to emphasize educational and public messages in them. The sixties and seventies were the best cartoons. Gratuitous violence, stupid situations, adult humor for latter when you grew up AND no messages. Now music, I’m a child of the 60s & 70s and the music was great but just damn, the 80s did have some awesome music. Oh, and talking about the nuclear threat, it’s was still around in the 80s but did you ever get under your desk (yes like those old black and white films) for a nuclear bomb drill because everyone knows those old time school desks could protect you from nuclear bombs and radiation. I actually did that as a child in Los Angeles. Nothing like Bugs, Daffy, Elmer, Roadrunner & Coyote, etc... Also Space Ghost, J. Quest, Speed Racer, etc... But the 80.s did have Star Blazers, did it not.
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Post by Paul Muad’Dib on Aug 27, 2021 1:22:39 GMT
Howler, you just named all the greats. Watched all those. Never heard of Star Blazers. The only 80s cartoon I watched sometimes was Thunder Cats. Hated He-Man.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2021 2:23:36 GMT
A product of the '50s,TV didn't become an allowed fixture in my family home until the mid '60s. I was a gas station attendant when 15 and music was more the entertainment factor. By the eighties, it was stealing time on my younger brother's Atari computers and a friend's Vic 20. Those old phone cuff modems at 8k were a marvel to see and cassette tape storage. 'War Games' promised so many things. We had already seen Sony presenting a double sided plastic disk in 1979 as what we would see and by the '90s, we indeed began to see them (one sided) at the consumer level. DAT portables and using VHS for recordings fell by the wayside pretty quickly. Heck, now many are publishing online through their phones or tablets and twenty pedals never enough for some guitarists.
Screw top wine becoming accepted and plastic bottles for booze.
I think someone mentioned in one of such threads the movie Idiocracy. Toss in Tank Girl and Buckaroo Banzai as prophetic. I doubt I'll be around for the George Jetson coupe in a briefcase but the next couple of decades are going to be interesting. Musk's team busy at Starbase right now launches around the world about daily now. Dragon cargo docking the 29th, seems like yesterday. One small step for mankind was on my fifteenth birthday.
I vote for a better Segway type personal conveyance (but wheeless).
Cheers GC
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Post by treeslicer on Aug 27, 2021 3:59:05 GMT
How much hardware replacement does it take to not be human anymore? IMHO, all it takes is a Bluetooth headset and a cellular device to concentrate on, so that they waddle along in public, talking to thin air and bumping into people.
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Post by howler on Aug 27, 2021 4:57:41 GMT
Howler, you just named all the greats. Watched all those. Never heard of Star Blazers. The only 80s cartoon I watched sometimes was Thunder Cats. Hated He-Man. I recommend you watch Star Blazers. You will get into the story and be hooked, as it's not just a half hour and then onto another story but actually a running story line. Actually two story lines, as Earth fights Deslok of Gamelon (probably spelled wrong) in one story and Prince Zordar and the Comet Empire in another.
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Post by rannh1 on Aug 27, 2021 5:26:11 GMT
I agree on most of your points, except the cave man part. I feel a caveman would find modern people foolish for romanticizing his life style 😂 I like to think the colonial era was the peak of necessity 😎 Everything is getting "smart" just because they can make it smart, but they never as IF they should. Soon toilets will have cameras, and when that day comes, I'm reverting back to the good ol hole in the ground technique In some areas I do agree that technology needs to step several miles back. Such technology that puts people out of work is too much. However, some technology, like computers, tablets and smart phones have helped people do their jobs quicker and in some ways easier. Gaming system technology has greatly improved video games far beyond what I thought would be possible in the 1980s and 1990s. I love that. That is my opinion and I am sticking to it. I think the long term goal should be to have technology that does everything to raise the quality of our lives so we don't HAVE to work, but can occupy ourselves with learning and activities that we enjoy. HAVING to work to pay for food or a roof over our heads, is not the same as wanting to work because we want to do something specific we enjoy. So I am pro technology, though I realize that the costs are high while we figure out how to get from just replacing people without improving the quality of their lives, to doing so.
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