AndiTheBarvarian
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Aug 1, 2021 5:09:48 GMT
Each skilled in the typical fighting styles with typical swords!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2021 5:36:18 GMT
Are they really lighter tho? On average, much lighter. The average antique longsword is 1.6kg, while a typical middle-of-the-road modern longsword is 1.5kg. From a sample of 19 swords, the average weight of a bare katana blade is 780g, and the tsuka and tsuba will add about 250-400g, for a total of about 1.1kg. The average modern Chinese-made katana is 1.16kg, calculating from the swords in www.toyamaryu.org/SwordMeasurements.htm (and omitting the Cold Steel "Nodachi", because it isn't a katana). Only katana I've held that's light as my longsword was my Kris cutlery, everything else was sluggish in comparison What is your longsword, and how heavy is it? Truth be told, I have no idea. It's maker isn't really known, and I don't have a way to weigh it. But it feels much nimbler than my Ronin dojo pro, even with a hollow pommel cap It's not very historical. It's very light though If I compared it to my gsow, the katana is definitely the nimble one
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2021 5:39:53 GMT
we've had sword vs sword and skill level vs skill level covered, shouldn't there be one for style vs style? or is that what you mean by sword vs sword? or, are we assuming anyone/everyone fighting with a katana is fighting in the same JSA style and the same with the long sword/HEMA? I mean, put a katana in the hands of an fma practitioner or the longsword in the hands of a practitioner of a different sword art and the results, despite similar skill level, could be very different, no? not sure if this even makes sense but it could be interesting. ok, now that I'm reading this back it does seem kind of silly but I still think switching things up may be a better way to actually test one sword type against another. Considering there is katana blades with saber hilts, I feel like that's an uncommon feature that should be factored in more. Considering they were made I don't see why the Japanese wouldn't use this style to adapt to long sword if they ever faced one (some even having two handed grips with a saber guard)
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Post by Kane Shen on Aug 1, 2021 5:41:40 GMT
Yeah just like longswords, which is a rather broad category of swords with very different handling characteristics, katana are not made of the same schematic, either. Two katana of the same size from the same period can have very different cross section, distal tapering and tip geometry, which would make the handling feel just miles apart.
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Post by Kane Shen on Aug 1, 2021 5:43:28 GMT
we've had sword vs sword and skill level vs skill level covered, shouldn't there be one for style vs style? or is that what you mean by sword vs sword? or, are we assuming anyone/everyone fighting with a katana is fighting in the same JSA style and the same with the long sword/HEMA? I mean, put a katana in the hands of an fma practitioner or the longsword in the hands of a practitioner of a different sword art and the results, despite similar skill level, could be very different, no? not sure if this even makes sense but it could be interesting. ok, now that I'm reading this back it does seem kind of silly but I still think switching things up may be a better way to actually test one sword type against another. Considering there is katana blades with saber hilts, I feel like that's an uncommon feature that should be factored in more. Considering they were made I don't see why the Japanese wouldn't use this style to adapt to long sword if they ever faced one (some even having two handed grips with a saber guard) Fun fact: in Japanese, "katana" just means single-edged swords. So a pattern-1796 British Light Cavalry sabre would be called a katana in Japanese. A bronze khopesh is also a katana. However in English, I think when we say "katana" we specifically have a certain type of Japanese sword in mind.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2021 5:45:02 GMT
Considering there is katana blades with saber hilts, I feel like that's an uncommon feature that should be factored in more. Considering they were made I don't see why the Japanese wouldn't use this style to adapt to long sword if they ever faced one (some even having two handed grips with a saber guard) Fun fact: in Japanese, "katana" just means single-edged swords. So a pattern-1796 British Light Cavalry sabre would be called a katana in Japanese. A bronze khopesh is also a katana. However in English, I think when we say "katana" we specifically have a certain type of Japanese sword in mind. I'm guessing tachi referred specifically to the longer sword used on horseback eh?
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Post by Kane Shen on Aug 1, 2021 5:48:31 GMT
Fun fact: in Japanese, "katana" just means single-edged swords. So a pattern-1796 British Light Cavalry sabre would be called a katana in Japanese. A bronze khopesh is also a katana. However in English, I think when we say "katana" we specifically have a certain type of Japanese sword in mind. I'm guessing tachi referred specifically to the longer sword used on horseback eh? I mean, regular tachi are not particularly long either. I think the average length of very comparable to later "katana". Nodachi and Odachi has blade length more comparable to European hand-and-a-half swords.
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Post by treeslicer on Aug 1, 2021 5:57:23 GMT
IMHO, when all is said and done.............
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Post by Kane Shen on Aug 1, 2021 6:06:34 GMT
IMHO, when all is said and done.............
Meh, that one is kind of old. The updated version is seen here:
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AndiTheBarvarian
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Aug 1, 2021 17:15:54 GMT
The most interesting ultimate fight would be between thwo high-skilled swordsmen that had trained with different high-skilled opponents with the other sword and have to fight one they didn't train with before.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Aug 1, 2021 17:17:23 GMT
There's only one way to find out, and that is to match kat to longsword with both participants being more or less equal in skill with their respective weapons. I've done that with Markus313 and I can honestly say that the extra reach a longsword gives is not a defining advantage. It comes down to a matter of exploiting the weakness of the opponent's blade and maximizing the strengths of your own.
My view point is that the sword makes no difference in unarmored combat. If both were wearing armor, then the advantage would be with the longsword, but I'm not convinced that it would be a sure thing because again, the skill of the fighter is going to make a huge difference.
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AndiTheBarvarian
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Aug 1, 2021 17:26:48 GMT
I also assume that if one sword or swordfighter with equal skills has an advantage it rather would be a "wins 3 of 5 times" situation.
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Post by Murffy on Aug 1, 2021 19:23:57 GMT
I'd be battling in the low-skill category. Given a choice, I'd pick the long sword and I'd be inclined to use it like a spear.
Now I've got an urge to head over to Arms & Armor's shop (it's not that far from my house) and pick up a long sword.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Aug 1, 2021 23:19:06 GMT
I'd be battling in the low-skill category. Given a choice, I'd pick the long sword and I'd be inclined to use it like a spear. Now I've got an urge to head over to Arms & Armor's shop (it's not that far from my house) and pick up a long sword. In that case it would be wiser to use an actual spear.
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Post by paulmuaddib on Aug 2, 2021 0:58:34 GMT
I'd be battling in the low-skill category. Given a choice, I'd pick the long sword and I'd be inclined to use it like a spear. Now I've got an urge to head over to Arms & Armor's shop (it's not that far from my house) and pick up a long sword. In that case it would be wiser to use an actual spear. Is that an option? Cause if we’re just making semprini up, I’ll take “What is a 308 semi auto with several spare mags at 300 yards for $1000 Alex.” Edit: Sorry Andi, just bored on a Sunday night and couldn’t resist. Now back to your regularly scheduled program.
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AndiTheBarvarian
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Aug 2, 2021 1:12:10 GMT
No problem, the thread was created because I was bored on a night before Sunday.
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Zen_Hydra
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Post by Zen_Hydra on Aug 2, 2021 4:30:59 GMT
All else being equal, and with combat taking place unarmored and on foot, I give the edge to the longsword.
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Post by howler on Aug 2, 2021 5:05:58 GMT
All else being equal, and with combat taking place unarmored and on foot, I give the edge to the longsword. Me too, sniping at distance.
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Post by Murffy on Aug 2, 2021 15:00:28 GMT
>sniping at distance. I like that plan.
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Post by Kane Shen on Aug 2, 2021 18:35:51 GMT
I would say that at lower skill levels, a more likely scenario would be a double hit and both combatants running each other through. The higher the skill level, the greater the likelihood the longsword operator would be able to better utilize the vast reach advantage and exploit the better hand and forearm protection of the crossguard (the tsuba isn't too much worse though with certain side protection akin to smaller side rings). 10" extra blade length is no joke, which is why you never see people using 31"-33" blades in tournaments.
When you consider the extra reach of cut and thrust weapons, you have to differentiate it with something like a spear, which only poses threat with the tip that's essentially a point that moves primarily in 1-dimensional ways, as only thrusting forward will cause damage, and repositioning the point laterally isn't too much of a worry in terms of damaging potential. 10" extra blade isn't just 10" extra reach of a dot or point, you have to think in two-dimensional way with cuts. So the extra coverage area is exponential on edged weapons like swords. This is just too much to overcome. True, at lower skill level, even if the combatants have an understanding, they wouldn't be able to effectively exploit it.
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