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Post by Adventurer'sBlade on Jul 26, 2021 6:13:36 GMT
That is correct. And they replaced it for free despite me having purchased it secondhand in the forum classifieds, because it was clearly a factory defect. They also asked for the broken one back and then followed up with me about their findings. They destroyed at least one other random sword with a flex test to failure for a quality control check because of my video and shared that information with me. That's an ideal response from the maker when a sword is defective. Yeah, the principal of "the customer is always right" is generally a kind of deferred gratification in profit generalization that demonstrate the appreciation of branch image. In CAS Iberia's case, they could have thrown a number of hurdles in your way but they did the right thing from the get go, and that short term loss may be turned around to incur a long term profit, when you think about how favorable the customer will talk about your brand now. All will be forgiven, and more. I hope so. I went on to do testing with the new sword and a few thousand people so far got to watch it perform well, so I hope more people bought the APOC swords because of it, because I want CAS to keep making more of them.
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Post by tommyh on Jul 26, 2021 15:51:22 GMT
It's not exactly a dox, as no other information about this person is revealed other than the name. However, I do agree this isn't an appropriate behavior just as the attempt to take the negative review and opinion pieces offline. In Adventurer's Blade's review of CAS Iberia's APOC yataghan, the blade broke in half on screen. If I'm not mistaken, Cas Iberia sent him a new one without asking him to take the embarrassing review offline. Also, fighting customers publicly is never a good look on the part of the maker or vendor, despite the fact that you might feel wronged. In shepherd214's case, they did try to do all the right thing, and eventually refunded him in full. It should be noted. At the same time, that blade's defects are simply unacceptable, trying to verbally mitigate the severity is just going to make the matter worse, as it leads to a perception that the warp and the bevel half as deep as advertised are of anticipated quality from Scorpion, while you have actually admitted with honesty that it wasn't up to par. When a maker or vendor goes radio silence during an active incident, you implicitly encourage wild speculations, it's just human nature. You should keep working on the PR no matter how difficult of a job it is. Also, characterizing the criticisms from other vendor as witch hunt simply doesn't stand. The plead that "you do not want to be criticized, so don't do the same to me" ignores the origin of such criticism. It came from a couple of blades being out-of-norm soft, and the problematic explanation of the heat treatment process by Scorpion. Showcasing how tough the blades having other problems (warping, shoddy bevels) other than having issues with heat treatment does not address the ones accused of being too soft. I get that you feel attacked by trolls with unfounded accusations, but that was the time to step up, not step aside, until it gets out of hand. I get why Paul is pissed, as he literally is sandwiched in the middle watching this fiasco without any possible resolution. I hope, this is a fair assessment. I truly hope Scorpion doesn't get torn down. I would point out that in those photos you can see shepherd214's email (what appears to be a business address). Not sure if he wants that on a public forum. I do think that oversteps a line, and Scorpion should slightly amend their response to omit that information. It does look like Scorpion is trying to do the right thing - at least as far as their business model is concerned. Looking at their page, they lay out their return/repair policy clearly, and I don't see anything done here that's a deviation from that. The issue of QC is, at the day, a judgement call. What one company considers minor may not line up with what another does. Hanwei, to be fair, is a much larger company that can afford to take a hit every now and then. At the end of the day, you buy the seller. If people think Scorpion's QC is lacking, they'll stop buying them and Scorpion will be forced to improve. That's capitalism for you. I agree that generally criticism should not be characterized as "trolling" or "hating." I think these threads started out with good intentions. But I see why Scorpion feels that way, because these threads have definitely devolved into smearing and baseless accusation. I would also feel attacked if these threads were about my product, and even if they started out with a legitimate premise, that kind of gets lost in the mud-slinging. I also hope Scorpion doesn't get torn down by this. I think there are some transparency issues we need to work on, but in general, I do think they're trying to do right.
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Post by warriorpoet on Jul 26, 2021 17:01:11 GMT
Just my humble opinion, but it's never good to argue and go back and forth with customers as a business.
Consumers have many options for durable blades. Inexpensive windlass swords will flex back and forth without issue and hold an edge fine.
Standing behind your product and realizing number one is making a customer feel satisfied and valued is so important for staying power.
Everyone makes mistakes. But promptly handling everything to the customer's satisfaction is truly paramount.
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tera
Moderator
Posts: 1,676
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Post by tera on Jul 26, 2021 17:34:15 GMT
This thread has been interesting, and I hope I don't upset people by pointing something out but it seems to have yet to come up, so I guess I'll volunteer to do it:
Businesses and business owners have rights, too.
After two threads ran well more than a dozen pages long on these boards, constantly getting bumped and maintaining focus on issues experienced by two customers, the manufacturer eventually weighed in with documentation about the actual exchanges of communication and a video of them testing a returned product.
Now, the main point I think we've missed here is the representative of the company stated there were factual errors in this thread and some damaging speculation. In the legal world, this is called Libel when published.
Instead of jumping to legal action, or having a lawyer send a letter to the SBG forum owners demanding the material be taken down, they came here, posted their documentation, addressed the issues that they say were misrepresented, and (in what I consider to be a classy move) said they would not respond to the thread further. The latter literally means they did NOT come here to argue with customers, or anyone. They came to present evidence of what actually occurred to protect their reputation, and that's okay.
I don't have a dog in this fight. I wish there was no fight. I understand people have strong opinions about the company. If I felt I was not well served as a customer, I'd be upset, too. However, there are ways to handle these sorts of things and there are lines one cannot cross without violating someone else's rights. I'm not taking sides, so if you've read this far thank you for your patience and I hope the thread continues in a civil way.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Jul 26, 2021 18:01:31 GMT
The final word I will have on this topic is to reiterate what I have said earlier. There is ZERO evidence or facts surrounding the actual event that damaged the blade. All we have seen is the result.
I am not trying to throw shade on anybody, since I don't know the OP and I have never dealt with Scorpion. But it seems odd to me that everybody is condemning the manufacturer, but not even considering if the customer was abusive to the product. I can go out and buy a Dodge Hellcat and wrap it around a tree 10 minutes later, it doesn't mean Dodge is responsible for the crumpled hood.
I always try to find facts, and in this case Scorpion has a published policy on their website that matches what the sword did. However, there are no facts other than what the OP claims that support his version of events that damaged the sword in the first place. I am wondering if the OP was expecting an indestructible blade? He did say he was hitting tree stumps with it - I can break or bend any sword by beating it against a tree stump. There is no evidence other than what the OP himself has claimed to have done.
Lastly, I've said this many times across numerous threads about the idea of "quality" being focused on "reasonable expectations" and a communication between the vendor and customer. Except for what is posted on this thread, I don't know what the exchange was between the OP and Scorpion about those "reasonable expectations" prior to purchase? Don't know.
And with that said, I will let this thread run it's course without any further input from me.
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Post by shepherd214 on Jul 27, 2021 1:13:24 GMT
The final word I will have on this topic is to reiterate what I have said earlier. There is ZERO evidence or facts surrounding the actual event that damaged the blade. All we have seen is the result. I am not trying to throw shade on anybody, since I don't know the OP and I have never dealt with Scorpion. But it seems odd to me that everybody is condemning the manufacturer, but not even considering if the customer was abusive to the product. I can go out and buy a Dodge Hellcat and wrap it around a tree 10 minutes later, it doesn't mean Dodge is responsible for the crumpled hood. I always try to find facts, and in this case Scorpion has a published policy on their website that matches what the sword did. However, there are no facts other than what the OP claims that support his version of events that damaged the sword in the first place. I am wondering if the OP was expecting an indestructible blade? He did say he was hitting tree stumps with it - I can break or bend any sword by beating it against a tree stump. There is no evidence other than what the OP himself has claimed to have done. Lastly, I've said this many times across numerous threads about the idea of "quality" being focused on "reasonable expectations" and a communication between the vendor and customer. Except for what is posted on this thread, I don't know what the exchange was between the OP and Scorpion about those "reasonable expectations" prior to purchase? Don't know. And with that said, I will let this thread run it's course without any further input from me. This just shows how uninformed most people here really are about blade smithing. I'm truly curious as to what "evidence" you need for a dead soft blade like that. Let me help a little. *quoted from Scorpion's rebuttal: “it's better to bend than break” • “as a general rule it doesn't take too much of a bad alignment followed with bad technique to bend a blade like that. I've seen such things happen before, and it's not pretty, but not the end of the world either. Again, on the plus side, the sword didn't snap and that is actually a good thing. Katana's were soft in the middle and designed to bend rather than break, and they bent quite a lot. The cure is to straighten out the blade and go find a better teacher.” Shepherd214s response to that, is that a bar of through hardened 1095 steel DOES NOT TAKE A SET OR BEND in that manner. This is NOT opinion. It's NOT speculation. The sharpened bar of metal that they make, should bend back to being straight even from a massive bend. Anyone who makes through hardened 1095 blades will tell you this. If its decently heat treated it can actually bend close to 90 degrees and return true and straight. If 1095 is heat treated right, it certainly cannot be bent over your knee like that. What Scorpion are shockingly comparing their blade to, is a DIFFERENTIALLY HEAT TREATED katana, that intentionally has a hard edge and soft spine and is DESIGNED to take a set and stay bent. In the event of failure. This comparison is laughable. This again shows and fuels further speculation that Scorpion doesn't really know what they are talking about. They make only THROUGH HARDENED BLADES. Therefore, there's nothing that specific customer could have done to magically change the steel structure of his blade to be that soft, UNLESS, he tried to re-heat treat the blade himself and he ruined the heat treat. If you think he did that, then that's fair I guess but my money says he didn't. This stuff is actually basic blademaking 101 knowledge. In alot of promotional videos they show that 9260 can do all this shock absorption and bending, but in reality so can 1055, so can 5160, so can 1075, so can 1084, so can 1095. Any basic carbon steel, when through hardened properly, becomes SPRING STEEL and can do incredible feats without snapping or bending. In fact the blade should be way more likely to snap than to stay bent if failure occurs. I'm NOT saying Scorpion didn't admit to some mistakes, but any and all speculation by forum members that the customer somehow "damaged" his own blade and made it soft like that is utter crap. I can hand you a thick, through hardened bar of 1095 steel and CHALLENGE YOU to bend it and make it stay bent. Run over it with a car. beat it against the hardest object you can find. Stick the thing in a vise and bend it as far as you can. I would bet massive amounts of money against any chance of you bringing me back that blade in a bent state. It won't happen. I've bent dozens of 1095 steel blades to near snapping point and they always rebound true and straight. I've had huge warps in my own 1095 blades and I had to massively bend them the opposite direction, clamp them in that massively bent state, and put them in my oven at tempering temperatures (around 400F) and when I unclamp sometimes they still spring right back to their opposite warped state, exactly what it looked like out of the quench. (Which is what Scorpion should have done with my warped blade but they didn't because that takes time and effort). THAT is how bad 1095 does NOT want to stay bent. It is a super springy, almost rubbery steel when it's heat treated well. I've stated this multiple times already, other makers have stated some of this too but forum members are glossing it over and accepting factually, scientifically wrong explanations from this manufacturer for whatever reason. And yea, if I wanted my full name on here I'd have put my username as my full name. They are also sharing people's email address, also something they didn't have permission to do. It's not like it's a huge deal but it's hugely disrespectful and the way they are fighting back against the customer base is something I've never dealt with from good manufacturers before and certainly not how I deal with MY customers grievances. I guess we do things differently.
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Post by alientude on Jul 27, 2021 3:05:23 GMT
I have no skin in this argument, and I'm not a potential customer of Scorpion Swords based purely on their style not being my cup of tea. I just want to agree with Adventurer'sBlade that it's not okay that Scorpion Swords released the real names and email addresses of their customers. That is a huge no-no for companies. You have an obligation to keep your customer's PII (Personally Identifiable Information) safe and secure. Just because they're in a disagreement with you does not give you the right to break that confidentiality. Very bad form.
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Post by rannh1 on Jul 27, 2021 5:56:39 GMT
I have no skin in this argument, and I'm not a potential customer of Scorpion Swords based purely on their style not being my cup of tea. I just want to agree with Adventurer'sBlade that it's not okay that Scorpion Swords released the real names and email addresses of their customers. That is a huge no-no for companies. You have an obligation to keep your customer's PII (Personally Identifiable Information) safe and secure. Just because they're in a disagreement with you does not give you the right to break that confidentiality. Very bad form. I'm honestly assuming it was an oversight and mistake, and I trust that Scorpion Swords will rectify it asap in their post ![:)](//storage.forums.net/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png)
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Post by alientude on Jul 27, 2021 6:21:49 GMT
The email addresses I can believe were a mistake, and it looks like they were removed already - I can't find any trace of them, and the post was edited by Scorpion Swords around an hour ago. This means, however, that Scorpion Swords has no problem whatsoever with revealing the real names of their customers when they're in conflict. I still think that's terrible form. What's more, I can't think of any legitimate reason for doing so. Scorpion could have made their points just as effectively without revealing their names. It really does feel like doxxing, to me at least.
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Post by randomnobody on Jul 27, 2021 11:22:07 GMT
All I'm going to offer here is in my measly 20 years of sword stuffs, I've seen a number of swords, from a spread of manufacturers (from low to high end, to custom) of a variety of steels, most through-hardened, bend and stay bent on bad cuts or accidental stand/ground/etc strikes. In most cases, it was generally agreed that the bend was too be expected and favorable to breaking, which I've also seen a number of instances from many brands.
To say that a given steel absolutely cannot bend and set simply does not hold to empirical evidence.
Oh and using the full, real name of a person who, themself, uses a pseudonym, for any reason, is not okay. Scorpion Swords posts as such, but as a known figure by the name of Chris Palmer, who is the business owner, it is perfectly reasonable to use his name in relation to the Scorpion Swords business and forum account. It is not okay to use any other, non-public figure's real name when they do not, themselves.
Since this has been, at least partially, corrected...good, but that it happened in the first place is the issue. Whether there was malice intended, on the current internet, one can never be overly cautious with personal information.
Otherwise, boy, this thread is a mess
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Post by alientude on Jul 28, 2021 0:28:45 GMT
I'm glad to see Scorpion Swords has removed the full names from their post, leaving only the first names (which are still unnecessary). Better late than never.
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admin
Site Admin
Posts: 2,090
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Post by admin on Jul 28, 2021 0:39:39 GMT
I talked to Scorpion Swords about the new issue raised regarding the email address being published - they said it was NOT done maliciously but only to be transparent and present all the evidence. They admit that was a mistake and have fixed it.
As a business in good standing for 13 years, that is also what they try to do if a customer has a complaint or concern - they try to fix it.
Anyway, the if you can read between the lines and some of the overly emotional semprini that permeates these threads, the issue has been raised, discussed, the manufacturer has responded and have no further comment.
This thread is a mess and has more than run its course. I think I have made it clear that It is NOT sport to bash manufacturers here - plug some respect in or go away.
THREAD LOCKED
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