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Post by howler on Aug 24, 2021 1:48:08 GMT
Probably something to seeing a light painted on your chest, thinking that is where the hole goes if a finger squeezes a trigger just a wee bit harder. Laser's can be very useful in a CQB environment where you are making entry into a structure/room after deployment of a flash bang/gas/smoke and have a very low visibility situation and/or are wearing a gas mask/protective goggles and unable to use your traditional sights effectively... Lasers were never intended to eliminate the need to learn the basics of marksmanship or the need to train and develop the muscle memory to bring your weapon up on target every time before you even start to look for your sights. Agreed. I was just thinking about what the bad guy would be thinking upon seeing a laser (or multiple) on his cold, empty heart. |
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Post by Lord Newport on Aug 24, 2021 1:52:46 GMT
Laser's can be very useful in a CQB environment where you are making entry into a structure/room after deployment of a flash bang/gas/smoke and have a very low visibility situation and/or are wearing a gas mask/protective goggles and unable to use your traditional sights effectively... Lasers were never intended to eliminate the need to learn the basics of marksmanship or the need to train and develop the muscle memory to bring your weapon up on target every time before you even start to look for your sights. Agreed. I was just thinking about what the bad guy would be thinking upon seeing a laser (or multiple) on his cold, empty heart. That is useful for Police officer, but IMHO, a civilian being presented with a lethal threat has no requirement to take the suspect into cistody nor should he even spend a split second to think about it. Probably the final comment from me on the issue...If lasers presented a significant advantage, every cop in the country would be using one. www.policemag.com/517629/exclusive-police-survey-weapon-lights-optics-and-lasers"In a 2019 survey of US police officers, less than 13% used laser sights on duty, with only 32% saying that their agency permitted their use." "On the pistol side, nearly 90% of officers said their agencies allow the use of weapon lights on their duty pistols and more than 68% said they have a weapon light on their duty pistol." |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2021 7:11:30 GMT
The following comes from the perspective of someone who worked in firearm sales and low level civilian training. I'm not like Lord Newport, more like The Sommelier from John Wick. None of what follows is intended as a criticism, just an observation from someone who used to fit firearms to owners for a living. I love the Glock 19 Gen 5. They made a lot of little changes that made it fit smaller hands than the finger-grooved Gen 4s. Even still, that latest photo has me a little concerned about fitment. The tips of your fingers are barely making it around to the left side of the frame. It also looks like the barrel axis may be more in line with your thumb joint than your forearm. Depending on shooting style the degree to which the former can be a problem varies. The vogue right now is to have more of a pressing grip with the fingers rather than a squeeze. By this I mean your fingers press through the left side of the frame towards your palm on the opposite side. Some people still use a full-wrap squeeze (including on the front strap) so with a two handed high grip your support hand may be able to compensate, but you will likely see a huge difference in control single vs. Double hand grip. It's the latter point that gives me pause. Hold out your arm infront of you, making a perfectly symmetrical "Y" shap with your straightened thumb, fingers, and forearm. You should be able to nestle a pistol's grip into the center valley of that Y, putting the bore axis in-line with your forearm. This allows energy to be transferred directly into the forearm, pass through the turned-out elbows (I call it the "hug" stance), to the shoulders (which should be forward of your hips due to a slight forward lean), down your straight back to your hips, and from your hips through your legs to the ground. Why fight recoil with muscle when good grip and stance can allow your bone structure to pass much of it to the ground like a lightning rod? From the latest photo, it "looks" like you might be having to wrap your hand around the right side of the frame more (either to get proper trigger finger placement or to get any traction on the left side of the frame). Take a second to hold your hand still but waggle your thumb up, down, and in circles. That is a very fiddly joint to introduce into the equation, and you may find your thumb tired after a long shooting session from trying to fight muzzle flip with it. If properly behind the firearm, the flip is felt mostly in the wrists. Watch competitive shooters in slow motion and you may see their locked out, forward pointing thumbs don't move even as the action cycles and rocks back slightly into the meat of that middle Y. Now, I could be seeing things due to the angle of the picture. Also, a full-wrap with a two handed grip can go a long way to mitigating the issue if it does exist, but you will likely see a huge difference in muzzle flip and control in one vs. two handed shooting. So, a humble unsolicited recommendation? IF the 19 Gen 5 turns out not to be a best fit, go try on Glock 43X (for smallest profile, conceal carry) or Glock 48 (only difference is longer barrel). If you lay a 48 ontop of a 19, they have about the same footprint. However, the 48 has a much slimmer grip and you may find it a great deal more comfortable and controllable. Compromises? Well, last I checked there were no rails on the 43X (VERY IMPORTANT, here, look at the 43X, NOT the original 43) or 48 models. There ARE, however, Crimson Trace lasers that mount to the trigger guards, if you still want a laser. My preference leans towards the grip activated models. They literally lay a rubber button beneath the trigger guard so you activate the laser by taking a normal grip. Comes on when you need it without having to think about extra switches. Anyway, the second compromise is magazine capacity. Both the 43X and 48 hold 10 rounds in their slimmer factory magazines than the 15 you get in a factory Glock 19 magazine. HOWEVER, you can buy aftermarket magazines made with metal bodies, allowing more space to stagger-stack (not a true double-stack) cartridges. The result? Flush-fitting 15 round magazines. That's right, a slimmer Glock with the same capacity as the 19 model. shieldarms.com/glock-43x-48-15-round-magThis is why you must avoid the original 43. It has even lower capacity from factory and a slimmer magazine well. The 43X and 48 can use magazines interchangeably. Both models have been out a few years and were some of our best sellers when I was still in that field. If I had the spare cash I'd probably have a 48 right now. Sorry for the ramble, and my apologies if my assessment of what's going on with your personal fitment with the firearm are wrong. Again, the 19 is great, the Gen 5 my favorite iteration of the line, so I like your taste. Most people just done have a "Sommelier" to help select a proper fitting model for their anatomy and life circumstances. Some gun shops will sell you whatever without a second thought. We never worked like that. Thanks for the info. Is this the kind of grip you describing? (In he pics with my finger resting on the trigger they magazine is out, and the pistol is unloaded in every picture) Sorry to be nit picky but I am old school on firearm safety. One of the most important rules is to treat all firearms as though they are loaded. Even if you know it is unloaded and the magazine is out; it should be treated as though it li loaded which means keeping the fingers off of the trigger. That is to prevent a bad habit from forming 8n which you end up having your finger on the trigger of a loaded firearm and have an accident. Safety first. |
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tera
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Post by tera on Aug 27, 2021 17:35:39 GMT
Safety first, agreed. I've had more loaded guns pointed at me be people who "know what they're doing" than I ever wanted in a lifetime. I just didn't want to be overly rude in pointing out the muzzle and trigger situations were rough in this case.
Some personal thoughts and tips for online photos:
1) Clear your firearm before anything else.
2) Check it again. Even with some years handling "empty guns" behind a sales counter, I always checked a firearm twice before letting a customer handle it, and twice again upon receiving it. Minimal slight of hand is required to slip a live round in a chamber if you want to be a malicious, evil person. We weren't even allowed to load snap caps, to avoid confusion.
3) Unless specifically necessary to illustrate a mechanical problem, don't insert a magazine. People don't know the status of that magazine, but an empty mag well means, at most, one in the chamber. When handling an "empty" gun, as with photos or dry fire, make sure there are no loaded mags in the room so you can't load one by mistake, for whatever reason.
4) Use a chamber flag or built-in indicators. You can get fairly small, orange chamber flags for pistols. I believe just about every S&W M&P comes with one like this. Ask guys at a gun shop, they probably have piles discarded by customers they will hand out for free. I have a small drawer full of various types we were going to throw out. Also, some models have cocking indicators or loaded chamber indicators built in. Learn to safely use those.
5) As others have said, always treat it like it's loaded. Keep your finger off the trigger, don't muzzle anything you aren't willing to destroy, know your target and what's beyond it (what really constitutes a safe direction in your house, apartment, etc? Where will the bullet go given it's penetration power?).
6) Engage safeties where possible. This may not be possible for mechanical reasons, like a 1911 with a chamber flag pushing the slide slightly rear, but on most carbines you can have it on SAFE with the bolt locked back.
7) Unless necessary to show an issue, in applicable models, leave the bolt out of the action or lock the bolt to the rear. This makes verifying a non-functional state from all directions, even when a chamber flag is not visible.
8) Always add a safety disclaimer describing the condition of the firearm and environment. This is the internet, and people emulate it. Even if you "know" your firearm is empty when you are taking photographs, someone less experienced may emulate you in general with a loaded firearm. It never hurts to be a vocal advocate for safety.
Optional: Obscure serial numbers and NFA engravings in a photo editor. This used to be considered more of a tinfoil hat thing, but in the world of 3d printing and lost casting I'd rather not have someone clone a restricted item only to have the serial number point to me.
Those are just my personal guidelines, others may be more restrictive or less so. I think we can all agree that, fundamentally, safety is key. My additions largely are motivated by the idea that anyone who posts photos is acting as an ambassador for shooting sports, firearms collection, and/or constitutional rights issues. As such, it is better to have the web full of good examples than bad.
Now, I did ask specifically about fitment and didn't provide the above advice first, so some onus is on me. For handgun fitment issues, you can do the following:
1) Check and double check your firearm is clear. This includes removing the magazine, and leave it out. Add a chamber flag and find a safe direction. Take photos while muzzle is in safe direction, even if this involves guesswork on camera/phone placement. You can erase bad photos, you can't erase bad bullet holes.
Or
2) Check and double check your firearm is clear. Following your owners manual, remove the barrel/slide assembly. Unless some controls exist on the slide (like the safety) the half of the firearm that goes "bang" is unneeded to display fitment with the frame. This way, the empty mag well is obvious, the tang and hand fitment is more visible, and it is obvious to all that what you are holding is as mechanically inert as a paper weight. (Even still, treat it like a loaded gun). This is like point #7 above, but for handguns.
I get long-winded in this thread, but with good intentions. So, finally, I'm the kind of guy who indexes his trigger finger when pumping gas or holding a bottle of windex. I also practice muzzle discipline with Windex, etc. Why? Habit, building and maintaining good ones. If I treat anything that remotely looks or feels like a firearm the safely, I am training safe habits. Under stress, you do as you trained, so trigger finger safety and muzzle discipline are great things to drill even when you are only interacting with firearm-like ergonomics of inert objects.
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tera
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Post by tera on Aug 27, 2021 17:54:08 GMT
Holy Historical Revisionism, Batman! I went to look up the infamous video of a DEA Agent shooting himself in the foot to use as a PSA. There are versions out there, but every one I found had been edited to a more narrow frame at the point he obtains the handgun from a LEO off to the right side of the screen. That is the truly interesting part.
In the original, you can see the LEO unholster and casually rack the slide to clear the chamber. The DEA Agent takes it and does the same, without looking. In the second case, the brass of the cartridge can be seen by the camera slipping out of the chamber just before he drops the slide.
What happened here is both were trusting the extractor to eject any chambered cartridge. In fact, the slide must have been manually lowered on the chambered cartridge slowly enough that the extractor spring prevented it from hooking over the cartridge rim. Thus, trusting a rack without visual or physical inspection allowed the chamber to stay loaded when the DEA agent eventually "prove the firearm clear" by pulling the trigger with the muzzle in a "safe direction". In this case, he deemed this to be vaguely down, but if he'd paid attention more specifically he'd have noticed his foot.
I can only guess there were takedown notices sent and an edited copy released showing only the agent who pulled the trigger. In truth, this was a cascade of failed safe handling. In short, when you clear a firearm, VISUALLY guarantee the chamber is clear. If you cannot positively see this is the case, do a PHYSICAL finger sweep.
I deemed this relevant because the firearm involved is a Glock as well. Since Glocks lack external safeties apart from the trigger blade, it is important to be thorough when clearing. Honestly, it is always important.
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Post by tommyh on Aug 27, 2021 18:41:02 GMT
I also believe safety comes before all else. Responsible firearm ownership and behavior is a must. Here, though, I'm willing to give OP the benefit of the doubt, as I think placing the finger on the trigger was a deliberate attempt at demonstrating where his finger fell on the trigger. A deliberate action in the context of demonstrating handgun fitment with a gun that is safety checked is acceptable, imo. If my understanding of what the picture was for is wrong, however, then I wholeheartedly agree with the finger-off-trigger comments.
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tera
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Post by tera on Aug 27, 2021 18:57:30 GMT
That's why I take part ownership of the issue. I was asking about fitment but didn't provide guidance. Hence the subsequent, long posts attempting to compensate for my own error.
No offense or negative vibes intended to the OP. He seems like a great guy. I'd happily let him try out some of my gear at a range if the world wasn't on fire.
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Post by nerdthenord on Aug 27, 2021 19:32:29 GMT
Thanks friends. Yeah, the finger resting on the tip of the trigger was absolutely about fitment. To be absolutely clear (gun pun there somewhere) I double checked everything before taking the pic, and placed no pressure on the trigger itself. All that said, I wholeheartedly agree these are not toys and absolute safety should be practiced and made a habit. I am not the best marksman every but I do consider myself pretty safe, this one example notwithstanding. And yeah, the laser is pretty cool but I definitely won't be using it as a substitute for aiming.
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tera
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Post by tera on Aug 27, 2021 20:26:27 GMT
No worries, and you are already more safety conscious than the vast majority of stuff uploaded on the web. I view this thread as intended more as support and helpful tips than any harsh criticism.
Welcome to the community of responsible firearms owners!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2021 5:36:21 GMT
Holy Historical Revisionism, Batman! I went to look up the infamous video of a DEA Agent shooting himself in the foot to use as a PSA. There are versions out there, but every one I found had been edited to a more narrow frame at the point he obtains the handgun from a LEO off to the right side of the screen. That is the truly interesting part. In the original, you can see the LEO unholster and casually rack the slide to clear the chamber. The DEA Agent takes it and does the same, without looking. In the second case, the brass of the cartridge can be seen by the camera slipping out of the chamber just before he drops the slide. What happened here is both were trusting the extractor to eject any chambered cartridge. In fact, the slide must have been manually lowered on the chambered cartridge slowly enough that the extractor spring prevented it from hooking over the cartridge rim. Thus, trusting a rack without visual or physical inspection allowed the chamber to stay loaded when the DEA agent eventually "prove the firearm clear" by pulling the trigger with the muzzle in a "safe direction". In this case, he deemed this to be vaguely down, but if he'd paid attention more specifically he'd have noticed his foot. I can only guess there were takedown notices sent and an edited copy released showing only the agent who pulled the trigger. In truth, this was a cascade of failed safe handling. In short, when you clear a firearm, VISUALLY guarantee the chamber is clear. If you cannot positively see this is the case, do a PHYSICAL finger sweep. I deemed this relevant because the firearm involved is a Glock as well. Since Glocks lack external safeties apart from the trigger blade, it is important to be thorough when clearing. Honestly, it is always important. Was the magazine removed? If not, then the extractor and ejector quite possibly and likely did their jobs properly but the slide pushed in a new round from the magazine. I would need to see the full original video to know for sure, but I watched the edited one and it looked like the magazine was not removed. There are fifteen rounds in the Glock 22 magazine. Of course, the video is not clear enough to make a solid conclusion. However, that DEA agent was an idiot. Sorry if I seemed to be gripy in my previous post. I was raised by a Marine and taught to shoot by him. My da was very adamant about firearm safety and it is one of the few things he was very strict about getting us to learn and practice. Even my younger brother who did not get into shooting until he reached thirty learned firearm safety. We learned firearm safety before we were even in kindergarten. Back then kindergarten was the typical school starting grade. So yes. I knew firearm safety, literally, before my "ABCs". Again sorry if I came across harshly. |
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