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Post by haon on Mar 27, 2021 19:00:52 GMT
I don't know for sure when it comes to others, but I personally would like to own a genuine gunto or gendaito. However, there is a big problem with them, which is personal taste. I simply don't like the blades, and most are too short for my size. Also, money. When it comes to a rick barret custom, I would prefer a blade from him over a gunto or gendaito, since it would be possible to fit the blade to my ideas. However, I dont have the money to afford such a blade in the next few years. Basically the only reason why I went for JKOO was money, and I was burned by it. Also, after ~1 year at my dojo I felt it was time to get my own blade instead of always borrowing a sword from someone else (was never a problem though) Looking back, I would prefer a nice ironwood bokken over my JKOO Just a thought worth considering by everyone...  Agreed, but as already mentioned, I dont have the possibilities to invest more money into this hobby, at least for the next few years. Also, back then the reviews here weren't as bad as they got currently and I didn't have that much knowledge...my mistake I repeat myself, but if you can save up for a longer time, get the better sword |
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Post by tancred on Mar 28, 2021 3:52:53 GMT
When I first started here, Hamwei was the go-to sword and I really wanted a Hanwei Lion Dog. They sold I think around $800usd back then. Over my limited budget. Later a friend bought a Hanwei Lion Dog....didn't really have any complaints...but later asked me if I'd buy it off him for $400. In very good condition. If I had bought it, I'd have been able to review it and speak about it. I didn't. So I don't. Hey Robert. The Lion Dog used to indeed be in the $800 range. Like all things Hanwei, the price has increased. I think the ballpark is more $900 now. I bought a slightly used one on Ebay for around $500 many years ago. I think the main attractions to it are the special steel Hanwei was using for it and the Bamboo Mat (I think they may have changed to a lesser steel now though for those models) and the crazy, unique hamon. The hamon on mine is indeed erratic and unique. I like it a lot. Its a big, heavy sword, though. The Bamboo Mat is supposed to be shorter and lighter I think. Definitely like the look of the Lion Dog koshirae over the Bamboo Mat, too. Hanwei, imo, used to be the go-to bang for your buck production katana maybe twenty years ago. I could (and did) get a 1st Gen PK for $150, and it was about the only production katana out there that was not a cheap bad buy. Hanwei seemed to be the only production katana worth buying from the $150--$500 range. Your only other options were their more expensive $900--$1,200 options or a custom. Again, unless you wanted to go the super cheap route, which wasn't worth it anyway. Hanwei's prices have increased, and now there are at least equal or better buys and other companies out there. I think Hanwei's are good and worth it if you can find them used at a decent price. Otherwise, I'd try other companies. Have you had any experience with Ronin Katana or Dragon King (owned by Hanwei, I believe)? Both can beat or meet Hanwei's current prices, and both seem to have a ton more variety for koshirae and ito colors. I've only owned one of Ronin Katana's Euro swords, so can't really comment on their katana. Can't comment on Dragon King, either, as I've never owned one, but their War Horse and Shi models look really cool! |
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Post by Lord Newport on Mar 28, 2021 4:35:42 GMT
When I first started here, Hamwei was the go-to sword and I really wanted a Hanwei Lion Dog. They sold I think around $800usd back then. Over my limited budget. Later a friend bought a Hanwei Lion Dog....didn't really have any complaints...but later asked me if I'd buy it off him for $400. In very good condition. If I had bought it, I'd have been able to review it and speak about it. I didn't. So I don't. Hey Robert. The Lion Dog used to indeed be in the $800 range. Like all things Hanwei, the price has increased. I think the ballpark is more $900 now. I bought a slightly used one on Ebay for around $500 many years ago. I think the main attractions to it are the special steel Hanwei was using for it and the Bamboo Mat (I think they may have changed to a lesser steel now though for those models) and the crazy, unique hamon. The hamon on mine is indeed erratic and unique. I like it a lot. Its a big, heavy sword, though. The Bamboo Mat is supposed to be shorter and lighter I think. Definitely like the look of the Lion Dog koshirae over the Bamboo Mat, too. Hanwei, imo, used to be the go-to bang for your buck production katana make twenty years ago. I could (and did) get a 1st Gen PK for $150, and it was about the only production katana out there that was not a cheap bad buy. Hanwei seemed to be the only production katana worth buying from the $150--$500 range. Your only other options were their more expensive $900--$1,200 options or a custom. Again, unless you wanted to go the super cheap route, which wasn't worth it anyway. Hanwei's prices have increased, and now there are at least equal or better buys and other companies out there. I think Hanwei's are good and worth it if you can find them used at a decent price. Otherwise, I'd try other companies. Have you had any experience with Ronin Katana or Dragon King (owned by Hanwei, I believe)? Both can beat or meet Hanwei's current prices, and both seem to have a ton more variety for koshirae and ito colors. I've only owned one of Ronin Katana's Euro swords, so can't really comment on their katana. Can't comment on Dragon King, either, as I've never owned one, but their War Horse and Shi models look really cool! What you pay for when you pay a premium for with a Hanwei sword is "consistency". "Consistency" is the one word that embodies the essential difference between a "professional" and an "amateur". |
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Post by shepherd214 on Mar 28, 2021 7:41:31 GMT
Sure, don't pay the extra 50-100 for a great Buffalo horn saya or wait the extra 3 to 6 months. Just order 12 Sinoswords that are covered in dings, scratches, smudges, chips, shims, mismatched fittings, bent kissaki points, inconsistent polishing, nakago holes nearly drilled off the tang...instead of owning 6 amazing Huawei. Somehow that makes sense to you. But I don't know why you're trying to make it make sense to us. Constantly. Again and again.
I have a Sinosword I enjoy but I have no delusions about what it is. I also can't get the Saya to fit all the way down to the seppa, the Saya mouth is too snug. Do I win? Do I get cookies? Can I write Sinosword off for the next 6 years due to poor saya fit?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2021 22:18:38 GMT
Here's what I do that seems to work for me on Jkoo custom orders. I specify not just specifications, but also specify workmanship details. I ask for the one choice I like the best for habaki, mekuni, fuchi & kashira furniture. But for tsuba choice, I do something different in order to end up with a "best tsuba fit" sword: For tsuba choice, I look carefully thru the custom menu tsuba choices and make a list of tsubas I would be ok with. Preferred tsubas go to the top of the list. I list all my "I'm ok with these choices" tsubas in the custom menu comment section at the bottom of the custom menus. And instruct Jkoo to choose the best fit tsuba. So Jkoo sees my custom menu order with say 6 or 8 so tsuba choices and instructions to choose the best fitting tsuba off my list. And I end up with a tsuba with minimal tsuba play. The thing with factory made tsubas (affordable) on the Jkoo custom order tsuba listings is that the holes for the nakagos are not all the same size. Or shape. Do this...look carefully at all the Jkoo tsubas....at the holes for the nakago. Notice how neither size nor shape is uniform. So when we choose just one tsuba, its hole may not be the right size nor shape for our blade's nakago. So? So give Jkoo a list of choices and instruct Jkoo to choose the tsuba on your multi-tsuba list that is best fit to your sword's nakago. If some choices on my "ok tsubas" list are say, brass and some iron, I'll say...if iron, use such and such a fuchi/kashira (iron). If best fit is one of my brass tsuba choices, I'll say if brass, use such and such a fuchi/kashira (brass). Also what I do, that seems a good thing to do on a Jkoo custom order, is in each section's comments block, I'll not just give specs as needed but I also list workmanship requests. Requests like...no blade-in-saya rattle, good habaki fit, no sharp edges on nakago, smooth rough edge of nakago mekugi hole, paper slicing sharp near yokote (sometimes the yokote area of blade is not very sharp). So...on Jkoo custom orders, specs AND workmanship details. And of course, I say to charge for the extra time and effort for the additional workmanship. For example, since I desire as good a habaki2nakago fit as possible, I specify words like, ' make the nakago slightly oversize with grinder and then use hand file to remove excess nakago steel to get "perfect habaki fit". Otherwise, Jkoo tends to try to do even final nakago shaping with a power grinder....and so no surprise when the habaki is not a great fit to the nakago. If the Jkoo people working on my order are good and paying attention, then I get a better made sword than if I did not specify both specs and workmanship details that I wanted. I'm starting a review of a 'factory second" Jkoo sanmai katana...and it is really done well. This is not a guarantee of success but does seem to help. Example, on one order I asked for a spare saya...well Jkoo did a great job (no rattle) on one of the two sayas sent, but the spare saya rattled. RinC Woudering why isn't this post on the vendors talk? |
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Post by Stef on Mar 28, 2021 22:24:00 GMT
Here's what I do that seems to work for me on Jkoo custom orders. I specify not just specifications, but also specify workmanship details. I ask for the one choice I like the best for habaki, mekuni, fuchi & kashira furniture. But for tsuba choice, I do something different in order to end up with a "best tsuba fit" sword: For tsuba choice, I look carefully thru the custom menu tsuba choices and make a list of tsubas I would be ok with. Preferred tsubas go to the top of the list. I list all my "I'm ok with these choices" tsubas in the custom menu comment section at the bottom of the custom menus. And instruct Jkoo to choose the best fit tsuba. So Jkoo sees my custom menu order with say 6 or 8 so tsuba choices and instructions to choose the best fitting tsuba off my list. And I end up with a tsuba with minimal tsuba play. The thing with factory made tsubas (affordable) on the Jkoo custom order tsuba listings is that the holes for the nakagos are not all the same size. Or shape. Do this...look carefully at all the Jkoo tsubas....at the holes for the nakago. Notice how neither size nor shape is uniform. So when we choose just one tsuba, its hole may not be the right size nor shape for our blade's nakago. So? So give Jkoo a list of choices and instruct Jkoo to choose the tsuba on your multi-tsuba list that is best fit to your sword's nakago. If some choices on my "ok tsubas" list are say, brass and some iron, I'll say...if iron, use such and such a fuchi/kashira (iron). If best fit is one of my brass tsuba choices, I'll say if brass, use such and such a fuchi/kashira (brass). Also what I do, that seems a good thing to do on a Jkoo custom order, is in each section's comments block, I'll not just give specs as needed but I also list workmanship requests. Requests like...no blade-in-saya rattle, good habaki fit, no sharp edges on nakago, smooth rough edge of nakago mekugi hole, paper slicing sharp near yokote (sometimes the yokote area of blade is not very sharp). So...on Jkoo custom orders, specs AND workmanship details. And of course, I say to charge for the extra time and effort for the additional workmanship. For example, since I desire as good a habaki2nakago fit as possible, I specify words like, ' make the nakago slightly oversize with grinder and then use hand file to remove excess nakago steel to get "perfect habaki fit". Otherwise, Jkoo tends to try to do even final nakago shaping with a power grinder....and so no surprise when the habaki is not a great fit to the nakago. If the Jkoo people working on my order are good and paying attention, then I get a better made sword than if I did not specify both specs and workmanship details that I wanted. I'm starting a review of a 'factory second" Jkoo sanmai katana...and it is really done well. This is not a guarantee of success but does seem to help. Example, on one order I asked for a spare saya...well Jkoo did a great job (no rattle) on one of the two sayas sent, but the spare saya rattled. RinC Woudering why isn't this post on the vendors talk? good point mate |
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karl j
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Post by karl j on Mar 29, 2021 2:17:02 GMT
Probably because RiC isn't claiming to be a representative of jkoo.
I don't have a dog in this fight, I think people should buy better swords period.
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Post by throwaway209 on Mar 29, 2021 17:23:39 GMT
Seriously. I bought a few cheap swords In the beginning but like it was said, they get old really fast. Saving for the expensive stuff is worth it if you’re really into the hobby, they feel so much better to own.
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Post by shepherd214 on Mar 29, 2021 23:08:23 GMT
Seriously. I bought a few cheap swords In the beginning but like it was said, they get old really fast. Saving for the expensive stuff is worth it if you’re really into the hobby, they feel so much better to own. Cheap stuff grows tiresome over time but on the opposite end of the spectrum a really expensive item can give buyer's remorse, the thought of "why did I spend two mortgage payments on this?" |
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Post by qeldridge on Mar 29, 2021 23:44:18 GMT
Hey Robert. The Lion Dog used to indeed be in the $800 range. Like all things Hanwei, the price has increased. I think the ballpark is more $900 now. I bought a slightly used one on Ebay for around $500 many years ago. I think the main attractions to it are the special steel Hanwei was using for it and the Bamboo Mat (I think they may have changed to a lesser steel now though for those models) and the crazy, unique hamon. The hamon on mine is indeed erratic and unique. I like it a lot. Its a big, heavy sword, though. The Bamboo Mat is supposed to be shorter and lighter I think. Definitely like the look of the Lion Dog koshirae over the Bamboo Mat, too. Hanwei, imo, used to be the go-to bang for your buck production katana make twenty years ago. I could (and did) get a 1st Gen PK for $150, and it was about the only production katana out there that was not a cheap bad buy. Hanwei seemed to be the only production katana worth buying from the $150--$500 range. Your only other options were their more expensive $900--$1,200 options or a custom. Again, unless you wanted to go the super cheap route, which wasn't worth it anyway. Hanwei's prices have increased, and now there are at least equal or better buys and other companies out there. I think Hanwei's are good and worth it if you can find them used at a decent price. Otherwise, I'd try other companies. Have you had any experience with Ronin Katana or Dragon King (owned by Hanwei, I believe)? Both can beat or meet Hanwei's current prices, and both seem to have a ton more variety for koshirae and ito colors. I've only owned one of Ronin Katana's Euro swords, so can't really comment on their katana. Can't comment on Dragon King, either, as I've never owned one, but their War Horse and Shi models look really cool! What you pay for when you pay a premium for with a Hanwei sword is "consistency". "Consistency" is the one word that embodies the essential difference between a "professional" and an "amateur". I have mixed feelings about hanwei, the first sword i owned was a practical elite, all around great buy. Everything tight and perfect saya fit. Set the bar pretty high so i got the bamboo mat next. Falls out of the saya, not even close to any sort of fit. Then the knot blew apart second day i had it swinging at some air ninjas. Somewhat minor flaws but still disappointing i had heard good thing about hanwei. Might have gotten a lemon. |
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Post by qeldridge on Mar 29, 2021 23:45:58 GMT
Why does it even matter? Most of you won't even cut a single mat with these pieces lol Perhaps if you are lucky, a double mat. While I am doing this with a $200 talwar. Can i ask where you get your Tatami mats from? |
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karl j
Manufacturer/Vendor
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Post by karl j on Mar 30, 2021 1:16:36 GMT
Why does it matter?
To me, quality, accuracy of construction, pride in display.
I have custom swords, but if I were actively practicing jsa, I would want the best training tool to use.
Production swords can make a good training tool.
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karl j
Manufacturer/Vendor
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Post by karl j on Mar 30, 2021 2:20:21 GMT
Why does it matter? To me, quality, accuracy of construction, pride in display. I have custom swords, but if I were actively practicing jsa, I would want the best training tool to use. Production swords can make a good training tool. Karl, let's think about this logically. Man to man. The person that would spend a few hundred bucks on a Jkoo is probably not going to be someone seriously, actively practicing JSA with it. This leads me to a slew of questions. Did anyone ever proclaim that Jkoo is a highly recommended option for that? etc. How many mats do you think the majority of members ( or lurkers) on this forum cuts regularly? How about at all? If someone is going purely on display, how many times do you imagine Jkoo would be recommended? Brother Nathaniel, I don't disagree at all, I was answering from my point of view, which is always buy a better sword. I used jsa as a reference, I've dabbled but my heart isn't in it. As far as how many cut, I couldn't venture a guess, I don't cut tatami, I have cut it before. I enjoy cutting, but again I just didn't click with jsa. It's beautiful and I appreciate it, but I'd rather compete in a something against someone physically. For display? Again here on this forum, which is kind of where I lurk and post, I don't do Facebook, don't really post on the nihonto message board... I can't say jkoo would really be a recommendation, but Huawei often is, and my personal opinion is Huawei is "better" than jkoo but in the way a diner burger is better than a drive though. I'd recommend better, make sense? |
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Post by Lancelot Chan on Mar 30, 2021 6:12:58 GMT
This is also my point of view. Many reviewers don't cut, or don't cut something relatively realistic. So their review of what's good or not may not be from a "user" standpoint.
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Post by JH Lee on Mar 30, 2021 13:50:52 GMT
I understand and appreciate the perspectives of Brother Nathaniel and Lancelot. However, it is not an argument for disregarding the finer points of fit and finish and quality of construction, etc.
A $20 machete from my local discount hardware store is tough as nails and can cut through both traditional and "abuse" targets with relative ease. I have literally hacked through a small tree with it, with no rolling or deflection to the edge. But it is also ugly as sin and does not have any rich tradition/history that saw its evolution into an optimized combat weapon. I would never put one up for display, because that's not what such a tool is for.
Japanese blades are simultaneously art and weapon. What makes them artistic is not arbitrary but intrinsic to why they evolved the way they did. They are inseparable.
A Honda will get you from point A to B. So will a limited edition Ferrari. Both are cars. One need not be an expert driver to appreciate what makes the Ferrari "superior," simultaneously as a functional vehicle and also as a collectible object of art. In fact, most people wealthy enough to collect such vehicles (I am not one of them) do not drive them. Ever. This does not change the objective superiority of such a car compared to others.
Again, I think Brother Nathaniel and Lancelot are making important points; and I agree with them to an extent. But I also believe that fit, finish, and quality of construction should not take a backseat to whether the blade in question will cut things or not. Just my own 2 cents.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Mar 30, 2021 14:50:20 GMT
... A Honda will get you from point A to B. So will a limited edition Ferrari. Both are cars. One need not be an expert driver to appreciate what makes the Ferrari "superior," simultaneously as a functional vehicle and also as a collectible object of art. In fact, most people wealthy enough to collect such vehicles (I am not one of them) do not drive them. Ever. This does not change the objective superiority of such a car compared to others. ... But it most certainly changes the price a consumer expects to pay, as well as the expectation of fit, finish, and customer service. Here we are again essentially discussing the concept of "customer expectations". One person wants a strong, functional sword and doesn't care too much about details, another wants a sword that they aren't going to use but expects art sword fit and finish, and another guy wants both. As a manufacturer, how to you please all three, given that the first guy wants a low price, the second will pay slightly more, and the third guy is willing to pay top dollar? Where do you place your product in the market? Where do you think JKOO is placed and what can we expect from their product based on the market placement? I recently bought a VW for my daughter and a Jaguar F-Type SVR for the SWMBO. The VW had a transmission shift issue and we dropped it off at the dealer and got a loaner car. 3 days later they called and said they would have to swap the trans under warranty, and 3 weeks later we got the car back. That is good service from VW. The Jaguar had a check engine light come on a week after we bought it. I called the 800 number at 7pm on Saturday night and at 7 am SUNDAY morning the dealership shop manager and lead tech were waiting for me. The problem was a code set by a faulty gas cap- the car was fixed in about 30 minutes- on SUNDAY morning. Two cars considered "good" in their respective markets, one significantly more expensive than the other, both had what would be considered "good" service based on the brand reputation. Now ask yourself if for the price of the VW you would expect them to open up on Sunday morning to take care of just you? Would you likewise expect to pay top Jaguar price to make you wait 3 weeks for a repair on their flagship vehicle? The same holds true for swords (or any product for that matter). You can't expect superior fit, finish, and performance when you are paying lower tier prices. You should look at a product in relation to other products AT THE SAME PRICE point. That is a comparison that has a workable value. It's no use to compare a $150 product to a $800 product and expect them to be the same. I have 2 JKOO swords, one is used as a beater and as such it's a perfect fit for what I am doing. The other is actually a really fine blade that I can't fault in any significant way other than to say it's not a nihonto. I use it all the time and the more I use it, the more I like it. I also understand that my experience isn't typical, yet for the money, I can't say too much negative about it. If I had paid $800 I would be royally pissed- the same way as if Jaguar made me wait 3 weeks for a repair. And now I'm off my soapbox... |
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Post by JH Lee on Mar 30, 2021 16:08:06 GMT
Rufus, as far as I can see, you and I have no disagreement about any of the points you made. Yes, you get what you pay for, and should match your expectations accordingly.
My post was specifically a reply to Brother Nathaniel and Lancelot, which seemed to be making the point that making any distinctions at all across blades was largely pointless outside of whether they would cut or not.
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Post by Lancelot Chan on Mar 30, 2021 16:14:55 GMT
Rufus, as far as I can see, you and I have no disagreement about any of the points you made. Yes, you get what you pay for, and should match your expectations accordingly. My post was specifically a reply to Brother Nathaniel and Lancelot, which seemed to be making the point that making any distinctions at all across blades was largely pointless outside of whether they would cut or not. Many fit and finish issues are functionality related, like how tight the wrapping is, how the tsuba is fit, how well the tang and the tsuka were fit. Even how well polished and symmetric of the cutting planes will affect usage. Form comes from functions after all, and nice forms are beneficial to functional usage. I guess you thought I'm the person who would just cut abusive targets with a machete and call it good? On the other hand, if the reviewers do not cut at all, could not cut at all, and dunno how to use the sword well, it'll be just the same as someone who never drive and understand driving blah blah blah about how well a car is made. How much value can you get from a driver's comment about a car, who couldn't drive a car to begin with? |
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Post by JH Lee on Mar 30, 2021 16:36:46 GMT
Rufus, as far as I can see, you and I have no disagreement about any of the points you made. Yes, you get what you pay for, and should match your expectations accordingly. My post was specifically a reply to Brother Nathaniel and Lancelot, which seemed to be making the point that making any distinctions at all across blades was largely pointless outside of whether they would cut or not. Many fit and finish issues are functionality related, like how tight the wrapping is, how the tsuba is fit, how well the tang and the tsuka were fit. Even how well polished and symmetric of the cutting planes will affect usage. Form comes from functions after all, and nice forms are beneficial to functional usage. I guess you thought I'm the person who would just cut abusive targets with a machete and call it good? On the other hand, if the reviewers do not cut at all, could not cut at all, and dunno how to use the sword well, it'll be just the same as someone who never drive and understand driving blah blah blah about how well a car is made. How much value can you get from a driver's comment about a car, who couldn't drive a car to begin with? When did I say that you or anyone else is the sort of person "who would cut abusive targets with a machete and call it good"? Obviously my point in making that comparison was simply that there is much more to what makes a JP sword good *as a sword* than whether it can cut up stuff, which you now seem to also acknowledge and agree with. Why some people are so ready to interpret things as personal attacks on them is a mystery. And my comparison involved people who could drive but chose not to. But by now making the comparison involve people who cannot drive at all, you're moving the goalposts, but I'll bite; and explain with other analogies. Not all people who are responsible for the engineering of an airplane are simultaneously capable of actually piloting one. But even though they cannot pilot an aircraft, I would say they are well qualified to make reliable judgments about aircrafts. Again, this specifically addresses the point that only users (or pilots or drivers) may be qualified to render reliable judgments or opinions about things. And since JP blades are simultaneously art and weapon, let me explain another way. Art appraisers and critics can distinguish between what has merit and what does not, what is a masterpiece and what is amateurish-- and they need not be artists themselves. And this analogy works because it's not about purely subjective aesthetic experiences, but because what makes JP blades art is tied to functionality, which makes it tangible and objective, which you also agreed with. I hope that clarifies things. |
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Post by RufusScorpius on Mar 30, 2021 16:45:43 GMT
I agree with everybody, because everybody is correct from their own perspective. What Lancelot said is absolutely true: form follows function and function follows form. But even that is limited by all of the things we previously discussed: to make a perfect form is going to cost a lot of money, likewise, how much "imperfect" is still acceptable? That is the crux of the discussion, has been in the past, is now, and will be in the future.
Until there appears some sort of international sword authority body that certifies various manufacturers and determines ISO standards of construction, we are left with small manufacturers doing what they want, and customers having to figure out what's what (often not possible until AFTER the sale is made). In the mean time all we can do is to rely on the sword community to give out a mix of opinion, anecdotal information, and "testing" of various degrees and effectiveness.
Interestingly, even medieval Japanese were having these discussions and they came up with a more or less standard certification process to assure quality in a finished blade. In addition to that, blades that were old and had actually been used in combat and survived were extraordinarily valuable because they were most definitely "proofed".
Wash, rinse, repeat.
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