karl j
Manufacturer/Vendor
Posts: 174
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Post by karl j on Mar 26, 2021 16:14:46 GMT
Standardized habaki fit?
Habaki should be made to the blade on a individual level.
I realize that's not going to happen, and my sword price point is out of the scope here.
RiC, you come across as a shill for jkoo. If you are or aren't it doesn't matter to me.
Jkoo certainly is not a true custom forge or whatever. I think their wares are junk, but I'm not the market for them, nor is that market buying a sword from me or having me polish a sword for them.
Not going to bash them either,I standby my steak analogy
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karl j
Manufacturer/Vendor
Posts: 174
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Post by karl j on Mar 26, 2021 16:16:17 GMT
That's quite a list RiC I would venture to say, that things like fittings, that actually fit, shouldn't have to be something that is asked for. The notion of a "custom sword" from a er... vendor like jkoo is flawed for lack of a better term. No one is ever going to be happy with a fast food steak. Go and get prime grade. There are plenty of smiths out there making great blades. No they aren't going to be 200 dollars, but a 5 dollar rib eye doesn't taste as good as a 65 dollar ribeye.
To each is own though ^^^^ Winner winner Ribeye dinner! You can buy them books but they just chew on the covers I guess.. Back to chipping out jizuya ... |
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Post by loveofswords on Mar 26, 2021 16:20:20 GMT
Huawei swords are indeed a step above average, though can have issues as well. And are a good choice for someone happy with a Huawei, off the shelf, standard dimensions item. Where Huawei used to be good, is variety and custom orders. Pretty hard to get a custom out of Huawei in any reasonable time frame. Jkoo and others offer variety and shorter turn around. Folks order Jkoo's with a variety of custom specs and Jkoo normally can do the order in about 3 months. IMO Jkoo is a true custom forge. Huawei is not. No criticism to Huawei for that...a plate of standardized swords may well help with q.c. and be a good business strategy for them. BTW, Jkoo has a single custom forge they get their rough blade blanks from. Jkoo then forges the rough blank to shape, heat treats, finishes the blade and does the furniture itself. Unlike some Longquan sellers. Jkoo has room for improvement in habaki fit....perhaps it is hard to fit standard size habaki's to varied customer blade dimension specifications. I think the habaki fit issue could be solved with nakago standardization. Is that a practical solution? Jkoo could raise prices to Huawei level to pay for the extra work. Huawei has some $600 category swords I like...except to get a longer tsuka and a few other tweaks, they would not be a $600usd sword anymore. When I ordered that $268 Huawei (nice sword) but asked for all buffalo horn saya furniture and a longer tsuka, it was no longer a $268 order, it became a $480usd order. Huawei gave me a $50usd discount off of that price for reason of a previous Huawei with workmanship problems. I paid half. Six months later, the order had not been started. Status request emails unanswered for months. After 6 months, Huawei refunded my 50% deposit. I still wanted a custom so Jkoo got the nod. Not hard to fix a loose habaki, but I don't think I should have to, so I push Jkoo about it. Turned out Jkoo did not understand what I was complaining about...they do the finished sword and when ready to ship, inspect it...a loose habaki is noticed really only when the tsuka is off...when it is just the bare blade and the habaki. I have asked Jkoo to do the habaki fit inspection with the tsuka off. I am hoping that is a change they will make. Look at the Jkoo ready2buy offerings....what is the average price? Around $200usd maybe? If a person doesn't want a custom and has a bigger budget then by all means, go Huawei. I have had problem swords from Jkoo...but their service has been really good..to the point of when I can show proof of a serious problem, they make me a new sword for free or at a sizable discount. All I was doing with this thread was showing what seems to have been a help for me with my Jkoo orders....specifying workmanship AND material specs instead of just material and dimension specs. RinC BTW,for the otherwise uninformed, this kind of subjective opinion and response is not unique to this forum. Other hobby forums can have similar....folks have strong opinions will express them. Some speak from first hand experience...I have now about a dozen Jkoo's. Some bring up what they heard from others. I don't have any Hanwei's. Those who do, I've heard both good and bad. But I talk my own experience. Not that of others. When I first started here, Hamwei was the go-to sword and I really wanted a Hanwei Lion Dog. They sold I think around $800usd back then. Over my limited budget. Later a friend bought a Hanwei Lion Dog....didn't really have any complaints...but later asked me if I'd buy it off him for $400. In very good condition. If I had bought it, I'd have been able to review it and speak about it. I didn't. So I don't. So in other words .... you haven’t experience anything else beside your JKOO/Sinoswords and those “flawed” huawei to give an accurate depiction of quality . A standardized nakago won’t do anything if the specification of the blade isn’t catered to fit those habaki so if a customer requests a custom blade then a custom habaki should be made to fit that blade individually. There’s no way around it beside denying the requested specifications. |
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Post by Cottontail Customs on Mar 26, 2021 17:58:47 GMT
Where Huawei used to be good, is variety and custom orders. Pretty hard to get a custom out of Huawei in any reasonable time frame. There is a reason Huawei's custom order turnaround time has become longer, there have been more custom orders placed recently than ever before. reasonable depends on how one feels about the quality, I suppose. I know the quality is well worth the wait so to me, it is very reasonable. Jkoo and others offer variety and shorter turn around. Folks order Jkoo's with a variety of custom specs and Jkoo normally can do the order in about 3 months. I believe there are good reasons it doesn't take as long for a custom sword from jkoo. lower overall quality for one(not a lot of time spent on making sure the habaki fits...  ) but also, I don't believe they make their own swords and have multiple sources so I would imagine this would help get things together quicker, if that's the case. IMO Jkoo is a true custom forge. Huawei is not. No criticism to Huawei for that...a plate of standardized swords may well help with q.c. and be a good business strategy for them. Robert, I've asked if you could prove this many times now and so far you haven't. do you have any proof that what you're claiming is true, other than what your rep tells you? how do you know they are a true forge? BTW, Jkoo has a single custom forge they get their rough blade blanks from. wait, what? so you just stated that jkoo is a "true forge". wouldn't a true forge make their own blanks? I'm confused Jkoo then forges the rough blank to shape, heat treats, finishes the blade and does the furniture itself. please.... show some proof that this claim is true. if this is not the case, you could be misleading a lot of people. |
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Post by soulfromheart on Mar 26, 2021 18:35:48 GMT
I'm wondering about something...we're always speaking of their japanese swords but what about their Chinese Swords ?
Are their forge sources better than for the japanese ones ?
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Post by senna1 on Mar 26, 2021 18:56:57 GMT
Can OP really not see that the very "variety and shorter turn-around" he heralds is directly responsible for about 80% of the quality flaws he warns one must preemptively address when ordering???
They're throwing together random pre-made parts, that they almost certainly source externally, without (much) care for proper fit, and it shows. There is a huge cost to quality with the "variety" they offer, IMO. And worst of all, there are a considerable number of people who seem to think this is how "custom" is supposed to work...
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Post by AJGBlack on Mar 26, 2021 19:55:26 GMT
I feel like this is the example that proves the axiom:
People want bespoke things.
You can get it well made
You can get it cheap
You can get it fast
But you can only pick two.
Jkoo is fast and cheap. You get what you pay for.
Personally I purchased a Swords of the Northshire "custom" for the spouse's birthday a few years back. It was fast, it was cheap, it was acceptably imperfect. The grind was a little off, but only noticeable to the extremely picky,
like me. Lol (The habaki is nice and tight)
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Post by Stef on Mar 26, 2021 20:16:00 GMT
Huawei swords are indeed a step above average, though can have issues as well. And are a good choice for someone happy with a Huawei, off the shelf, standard dimensions item. Where Huawei used to be good, is variety and custom orders. Pretty hard to get a custom out of Huawei in any reasonable time frame. Jkoo and others offer variety and shorter turn around. Folks order Jkoo's with a variety of custom specs and Jkoo normally can do the order in about 3 months. IMO Jkoo is a true custom forge. Huawei is not. No criticism to Huawei for that...a plate of standardized swords may well help with q.c. and be a good business strategy for them. BTW, Jkoo has a single custom forge they get their rough blade blanks from. Jkoo then forges the rough blank to shape, heat treats, finishes the blade and does the furniture itself. Unlike some Longquan sellers. Jkoo has room for improvement in habaki fit....perhaps it is hard to fit standard size habaki's to varied customer blade dimension specifications. I think the habaki fit issue could be solved with nakago standardization. Is that a practical solution? Jkoo could raise prices to Huawei level to pay for the extra work. Huawei has some $600 category swords I like...except to get a longer tsuka and a few other tweaks, they would not be a $600usd sword anymore. When I ordered that $268 Huawei (nice sword) but asked for all buffalo horn saya furniture and a longer tsuka, it was no longer a $268 order, it became a $480usd order. Huawei gave me a $50usd discount off of that price for reason of a previous Huawei with workmanship problems. I paid half. Six months later, the order had not been started. Status request emails unanswered for months. After 6 months, Huawei refunded my 50% deposit. I still wanted a custom so Jkoo got the nod. Not hard to fix a loose habaki, but I don't think I should have to, so I push Jkoo about it. Turned out Jkoo did not understand what I was complaining about...they do the finished sword and when ready to ship, inspect it...a loose habaki is noticed really only when the tsuka is off...when it is just the bare blade and the habaki. I have asked Jkoo to do the habaki fit inspection with the tsuka off. I am hoping that is a change they will make. Look at the Jkoo ready2buy offerings....what is the average price? Around $200usd maybe? If a person doesn't want a custom and has a bigger budget then by all means, go Huawei. I have had problem swords from Jkoo...but their service has been really good..to the point of when I can show proof of a serious problem, they make me a new sword for free or at a sizable discount. All I was doing with this thread was showing what seems to have been a help for me with my Jkoo orders....specifying workmanship AND material specs instead of just material and dimension specs. RinC BTW,for the otherwise uninformed, this kind of subjective opinion and response is not unique to this forum. Other hobby forums can have similar....folks have strong opinions will express them. Some speak from first hand experience...I have now about a dozen Jkoo's. Some bring up what they heard from others. I don't have any Hanwei's. Those who do, I've heard both good and bad. But I talk my own experience. Not that of others. When I first started here, Hamwei was the go-to sword and I really wanted a Hanwei Lion Dog. They sold I think around $800usd back then. Over my limited budget. Later a friend bought a Hanwei Lion Dog....didn't really have any complaints...but later asked me if I'd buy it off him for $400. In very good condition. If I had bought it, I'd have been able to review it and speak about it. I didn't. So I don't. Robert I do not understand if you are looking for confirmation bias or looking for an argument.or simply to keep talking about jkoo. what cottontail customs is saying is 1000% on point, is this just you being gullible or are you so on about jkoo because you cannot afford anything else ? if so this is perfectly ok and I am in no way mocking you but at this point I feel I must ask as the only other option is you are actively trying to make publicity for jkoo and are a rappresentative. your expectations are also way out for huawei, you cannot expect a better sword without waiting the time needed. everyone knows it's about 1 year wait. make peace with it. and your price is going to increase if you change options, it means more labour more time more material and it has to be done well, jkoo can do it cheaper faster precisely because they do not do it as well and as slowly as huawei this is like subway sandwich with lots of cheap options and a Fried Chicken Sandwich from Son of a Gun in Los Angeles. Apple and oranges as we say in the UK |
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Post by JH Lee on Mar 26, 2021 22:38:56 GMT
I just can't understand why anyone would want a dozen swords from a maker like jkoo or whatever instead of getting a decent ww2-era gendaito or an actual custom from Rick Barrett, etc
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Post by Lord Newport on Mar 26, 2021 22:49:52 GMT
I just can't understand why anyone would want a dozen swords from a maker like jkoo or whatever instead of getting a decent ww2-era gendaito or an actual custom from Rick Barrett, etc Same reason people collect inexpensive watches, firearms etc...  Japanese / Japanese style swords disclosure; 2 Bugei (Hanwei/Chen) katana (Dragonfly and Bamboo) 2 Hataya Sensei Kotestu katana, 1 waki Howard Clark L6 daisho Howard Clark 1086 daisho 1 Edo period Nihonto 2 Gendaito |
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Post by JH Lee on Mar 26, 2021 23:22:21 GMT
I just can't understand why anyone would want a dozen swords from a maker like jkoo or whatever instead of getting a decent ww2-era gendaito or an actual custom from Rick Barrett, etc Same reason people collect inexpensive watches, firearms etc... I guess... 🤷🏻♂️ Personally, I prefer quality over quantity. To me, the cumulative amounts of money and months of waiting for "custom" Franken-blades from jkoo et al would be better put toward an actual Nihonto or some other custom sword that I would be proud to leave for my kids one day. If that means I just have to save and wait longer, then I'm happy to do so. Like everyone else here, I don't have a money tree in my backyard. So many times I read people say how they can't afford a Rick Barrett or an Anthony DiCristofano or a papered nihonto, etc etc. But then, I see them post their numerous (and sub-par by comparison) swords.... The fact that people who are as skilled as the smiths named above have effectively stopped taking commissions for JP blades reflects rather poorly on the collectors' priorities and unwillingness to support their artistry... Unpopular opinion, I know. But honestly, I just don't get why there is an entire thread shilling for a low-tier Chinese outfit instead of threads that do more to encourage people to expand their horizons and learn more about the things they are already willing to spend precious money on. Ok, rant over. I really don't mean to ruffle any feathers, but it needed to be said. |
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Post by vidar on Mar 27, 2021 0:30:42 GMT
Well, production swords definitely have a right of existence. I rather cut bamboo with my Hanwei Raptor than my antique Nihonto...
There are many brands (Hanwei, Huanuo, Huawei, ...) that make swords that are great tools for training and that you can be genuinely proud of.
But collecting a dozen of flawed Sinoswords makes indeed no sense IMO. For the same budget, one can order a custom MAS or Motohara...
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Post by JH Lee on Mar 27, 2021 0:55:19 GMT
Agreed, vidar. I also have a beloved production sword, an old Bugei Dragonfly, that is my primary cutting/training tool.
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Post by pvsampson on Mar 27, 2021 1:43:42 GMT
Can OP really not see that the very "variety and shorter turn-around" he heralds is directly responsible for about 80% of the quality flaws he warns one must preemptively address when ordering??? They're throwing together random pre-made parts, that they almost certainly source externally, without (much) care for proper fit, and it shows. There is a huge cost to quality with the "variety" they offer, IMO. And worst of all, there are a considerable number of people who seem to think this is how "custom" is supposed to work... So many recommend Sino based on the custom aspect alone, then rave about the "unique sword" they get not knowing what they are actually talking about. Some do know yet seem to skip over points like Josh made,especially tsuka construction. Pretty much all of them ignore the fact that they are just as average as Sheng, Ryan/SoN yet they feel the "custom" they have received is the equivalent of any nihonto out there. They have their position in lower priced lower quality but people will not accept that a $250 custom with flaws is exactly that. |
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Post by JubbeiSamuro on Mar 27, 2021 2:43:49 GMT
I have now in my book listed this RinC as a representative/spokesperson/biased-fan of Jkoo/Sino Swords and will no longer take advice from him regarding said company.
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Post by Lord Newport on Mar 27, 2021 2:45:22 GMT
Can OP really not see that the very "variety and shorter turn-around" he heralds is directly responsible for about 80% of the quality flaws he warns one must preemptively address when ordering??? They're throwing together random pre-made parts, that they almost certainly source externally, without (much) care for proper fit, and it shows. There is a huge cost to quality with the "variety" they offer, IMO. And worst of all, there are a considerable number of people who seem to think this is how "custom" is supposed to work... So many recommend Sino based on the custom aspect alone, then rave about the "unique sword" they get not knowing what they are actually talking about. ^^^^ This! So many buyers of low end katana don't know what they are talking about, buying or actually receiving and consequently, have mismatched expectations IMHO. I think its important to try and educate them but failing that...they are best left to their own devices. |
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Post by Adventurer'sBlade on Mar 27, 2021 5:28:24 GMT
I have now in my book listed this RinC as a representative/spokesperson/biased-fan of Jkoo/Sino Swords and will no longer take advice from him regarding said company. That's a little rude considering he took the time to share his honest experiences with the company and what he sees as the benefits and limitations of choosing them. Just because we don't think it sounds very appealing doesn't make him a shill. |
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Post by JubbeiSamuro on Mar 27, 2021 7:35:28 GMT
You're absolutely right, my apologies. RinC did indeed go in length on his points, and he is entitled to his opinion.
I take what I said back, and I'm sorry for being rude. Maybe he does indeed believe in the company, if he's happy kudos to him.
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Post by haon on Mar 27, 2021 8:08:38 GMT
I just can't understand why anyone would want a dozen swords from a maker like jkoo or whatever instead of getting a decent ww2-era gendaito or an actual custom from Rick Barrett, etc I don't know for sure when it comes to others, but I personally would like to own a genuine gunto or gendaito. However, there is a big problem with them, which is personal taste. I simply don't like the blades, and most are too short for my size. Also, money. When it comes to a rick barret custom, I would prefer a blade from him over a gunto or gendaito, since it would be possible to fit the blade to my ideas. However, I dont have the money to afford such a blade in the next few years. Basically the only reason why I went for JKOO was money, and I was burned by it. Also, after ~1 year at my dojo I felt it was time to get my own blade instead of always borrowing a sword from someone else (was never a problem though) Looking back, I would prefer a nice ironwood bokken over my JKOO |
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Post by Lord Newport on Mar 27, 2021 14:58:34 GMT
I just can't understand why anyone would want a dozen swords from a maker like jkoo or whatever instead of getting a decent ww2-era gendaito or an actual custom from Rick Barrett, etc I don't know for sure when it comes to others, but I personally would like to own a genuine gunto or gendaito. However, there is a big problem with them, which is personal taste. I simply don't like the blades, and most are too short for my size. Also, money. When it comes to a rick barret custom, I would prefer a blade from him over a gunto or gendaito, since it would be possible to fit the blade to my ideas. However, I dont have the money to afford such a blade in the next few years. Basically the only reason why I went for JKOO was money, and I was burned by it. Also, after ~1 year at my dojo I felt it was time to get my own blade instead of always borrowing a sword from someone else (was never a problem though) Looking back, I would prefer a nice ironwood bokken over my JKOO Just a thought worth considering by everyone...  |
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) but also, I don't believe they make their own swords and have multiple sources so I would imagine this would help get things together quicker, if that's the case.
