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Post by fester on Feb 17, 2021 20:23:11 GMT
In regards to skulls, Skallagrim on his recent youtube video about how Forged in Fire tests their weapons states that old skulls would be very hard on swords. Not outside the realm of possibility to test swords on bones but as Lord Newport states living bones and flesh is what swords were designed to deal with. Not trees, old bones, etc.
Skallagrim basically states what Lord Newport does on testing swords against bones.
The problem is we DO NOT know how he re-sharpened the sword and if he did any other testing etc. off camera.
It appears Albion will not fix the sword since he re-sharpened it himself and used testing medium which they do not recommend.
Even Skallagrim does not normally hit swords onto stumps and trees. Only branches (though they vary in thickness). He also recommends not to do this to swords.
If someone contacts Albion they may clear this up more on why they will not fix it and what the issue might be.
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Post by fester on Feb 17, 2021 20:25:01 GMT
Skallagrim also states many of the test on Forged in Fire are unrealistic and are not mediums most swords would survive without damage.
No one has ever accused Skallagrim being easy on swords but even he states forged in fire on alot of their tests he cannot approve of himself.
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Post by Lord Newport on Feb 17, 2021 20:28:56 GMT
In medieval times... as today, they used axes as the task specific tool of choice. I do not understand the use of a sword to do the work of an axe or the belief that a sword should be as durable as an axe in such a task. It is ignorance about the weapon system or an obsession with "Forged in Fire" episodes?? If one wants to really recreate a situation to test a sword with they should use VERY freshly slaughtered animals...living bone has totally different properties than long dead bone and I doubt anyone would disagree that swords were designed/manufactured to be used on living things to turn them into dead things... Sure but Let's take the "forged in fire" episodes into account though just for the sake of comparison. I find that as a sword junkie.. watching Forged in Fire is like watching a train wreck...once I turn it on I just cant stop watching until the testing is over...  |
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Post by Lord Newport on Feb 17, 2021 20:30:54 GMT
Skallagrim also states many of the test on Forged in Fire are unrealistic and are not mediums most swords would survive without damage. No one has ever accused Skallagrim being easy on swords but even he states forged in fire on alot of their tests he cannot approve of himself. I don't disagree of course but some of them did survive the tests with less damage correct? Why? Do you kinda see what I am getting at? Forged in fire never really gets into cross section and bevel analysis...just flexibility and sharpness in destructive testing. It would be interesting to see and compare edge geometry but they don't so we really don't know if the swords have axe like edges or sword edges. If I was making a sword for the specific purpose of surviving destructive testing, it would have a task specific edge / geometry. |
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Post by fester on Feb 17, 2021 20:37:58 GMT
Skallagrim also states many of the test on Forged in Fire are unrealistic and are not mediums most swords would survive without damage. No one has ever accused Skallagrim being easy on swords but even he states forged in fire on alot of their tests he cannot approve of himself. I don't disagree of course but some of them did survive the tests with less damage correct? Why? Do you kinda see what I am getting at? It depends on the tests, the type of sword, etc. Some of the tests on some episodes are not as hard and are within the realm of reality. others it is more a surprise that a sword survives at all! Skallagrim stated basically the same thing. he goes into details why a particular sword may not survive a test and some of it comes down to luck as well. Though as he points out some swords do have failures that they should have survived on the show. It depends on the skill of the smith, the materials they use and the time constraints as well. Remember the show is for entertainment and not necessarily for historically reality. |
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Post by Lord Newport on Feb 17, 2021 21:05:32 GMT
Forged in fire never really gets into cross section and bevel analysis...just flexibility and sharpness in destructive testing. It would be interesting to see and compare edge geometry but they don't so we really don't know if the swords have axe like edges or sword edges. If I was making a sword for the specific purpose of surviving destructive testing, it would have a task specific edge / geometry. Exactly, precisely ol' chap now we are starting to get on the same page lol  |
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Post by Lord Newport on Feb 17, 2021 21:45:41 GMT
Forged in fire never really gets into cross section and bevel analysis...just flexibility and sharpness in destructive testing. It would be interesting to see and compare edge geometry but they don't so we really don't know if the swords have axe like edges or sword edges. If I was making a sword for the specific purpose of surviving destructive testing, it would have a task specific edge / geometry. Exactly, precisely ol' chap now we are starting to get on the same page lol Since most of the "smiths" on forged in fire are knife makers, not sword smiths, I really doubt that from a technical analysis of cross section a/ geometry, that most of the swords made on Forged in Fire are anything but big knives. |
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Post by RufusScorpius on Feb 17, 2021 23:59:32 GMT
That's what I've been saying. But it's not my sword and not my responsibility. The owner of the damaged sword needs to be the one to talk to Albion. Right I mean it's cool to defend a manufacturer you hold in high regard but explaining away the negative result of a probably passable test right away as either: #1. Being a weakened, resharpened edge. #2. That this damage is within historical parameters with originals so that's that. I mean it's possible 🤷♂️ But It's not really providing the manufacturer or tester with proper closure on the matter. I guess I would just rather hear it from Albion directly instead of it's many defenders (Not that it's a bad thing to have loyal defenders/customers) I mean we have smiths here right? Would Mr. Driggers for example say that it should have probably passed the test with less damage? etc. I will ask Purna about this as well. He has certainly tested stuff against skulls and bones. Not arguing against what you are saying, but the owner took a belt sander to the edge. At that point, Albion is clear of any responsibility. |
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ghost
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Post by ghost on Feb 18, 2021 1:42:36 GMT
imo the viceroy did pretty well
not sure exactly how much he put it through, but suspect properly heat treated swords would fare the same
dont both male sheep and deer headbutt? ie thick-skulled. pretty sure my kukri has an edge geometry closer to an axe than a sword so that test purna did is apples to coconut
a bad cut/edge alignment would promote damage
also if there were antlers still attached that'd be game over.
Brother Nathaniel, it would be a very interesting test if you did try it for your next test medium. (^ I certainly wouldnt try my swords against such as I expect edge damage) sheep skull is probably of similar toughness to deer. cow skull would be ridiculously hard
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Post by Kane Shen on Feb 18, 2021 2:29:16 GMT
I’m finally in a price range for a high end sword, particularly the Albion Viceroy, but i’ve seen in some forums that people have been noticing more problems with albion swords, such as uneven guards or scuffs on the finish. I’m wondering has anyone on here experienced this firsthand? Not just uneven guards, sometimes asymmetry on blades. Minor marks and blemishes--all firsthand experience. Albion swords are made of experienced workers, not Hephaestus himself, therefore these swords will never be perfect. I do wish they eliminate more minor issues with their swords, when you pay 1-2k sometimes even more on a sword. I'm not asking for perfection, but I do think occasionally they get too comfortable. |
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Post by mpsmith47304 on Feb 19, 2021 17:49:31 GMT
... A sword might be used in earnest once or twice in its lifetime, if at all. ... Indeed. I remember a story I read a long time ago ( I forget the name of the gentleman it was about) in which a Samurai Lord had to kill a vassal for disrespect. He had been so long since he drew his sword that it was stuck in the saya so tight that he had to get help from his attendants to pull it out. If I remember the story correctly, he forgave the insult and gained much respect from everyone around for his ability to maintain order without violence. I suspect that olden days were much like modern times in which most sword activity was done with practice swords, leaving the real ones for the few occasions where it might be necessary to actually kill with it- and those times don't come often, even in war. Of course, swords were often side arms, so even if you wore it into battle, it might never be drawn. Swords have symbolic, as well as practical value of course, especially for the upper echelons of society. |
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Post by mpsmith47304 on Feb 19, 2021 17:53:19 GMT
Exactly, precisely ol' chap now we are starting to get on the same page lol Since most of the "smiths" on forged in fire are knife makers, not sword smiths, I really doubt that from a technical analysis of cross section a/ geometry, that most of the swords made on Forged in Fire are anything but big knives. Like a lot of us, I enjoy Forged in fire, but I am never fooled into thinking it is something it s not. It's relatively rare that a sword produced for round three is actually a good sword, and the judges usually comment positively on it. I'd like to see them do more special events where they can get really good sword-makers to compete. I really liked their judges "challenges" this year. It was nice to see makers of that caliber really walk through a build.... I particularly liked Ben's Sutton Hoo sword builf and Dave's basket hilt. |
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Post by Arthur Dayne on Feb 19, 2021 20:31:15 GMT
I’m finally in a price range for a high end sword, particularly the Albion Viceroy, but i’ve seen in some forums that people have been noticing more problems with albion swords, such as uneven guards or scuffs on the finish. I’m wondering has anyone on here experienced this firsthand? Not just uneven guards, sometimes asymmetry on blades. Minor marks and blemishes--all firsthand experience. Albion swords are made of experienced workers, not Hephaestus himself, therefore these swords will never be perfect. I do wish they eliminate more minor issues with their swords, when you pay 1-2k sometimes even more on a sword. I'm not asking for perfection, but I do think occasionally they get too comfortable. My Poitiers has that slight asymmetry on the blade you mentioned, it's pretty slight but more noticeable because of how straight/linear the profile taper is for Type XV blade. The central line is perfectly straight but it highlights how one side has tiny bit more steel vs the other. A very recent addition to my collection this month was the Albion Squire Sword and it came with character marks "blemishes" (2-3 horizontal scratches) on the tip potion past the fuller. Everything from the end of the fuller to the guard was perfect but past the fuller the central line seemed kinda mushy and seemed more lenticular vs diamond. I'll get some pictures up one of these days, feeling super lazy. Squire feels great in hand and I'm 95% happy with how it looks but sometimes I also think the folks at Albion get too comfy and laxed. Albion is the only real deal high end Production Sword business in North America that produces the quality and historically correct swords I like at the prices I'm willing to pay so there's not much else for me to choose from that'd I'd be happy with. I'm extremely forgiving about things like scratches on say the guard & pommel because "that's just weathering" and it's going to get a patina anyway, but the blade I would prefer to scratch it up myself on my own time if that makes sense. |
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Post by Lord Newport on Feb 20, 2021 1:39:33 GMT
Not just uneven guards, sometimes asymmetry on blades. Minor marks and blemishes--all firsthand experience. Albion swords are made of experienced workers, not Hephaestus himself, therefore these swords will never be perfect. I do wish they eliminate more minor issues with their swords, when you pay 1-2k sometimes even more on a sword. I'm not asking for perfection, but I do think occasionally they get too comfortable. My Poitiers has that slight asymmetry on the blade you mentioned, it's pretty slight but more noticeable because of how straight/linear the profile taper is for Type XV blade. The central line is perfectly straight but it highlights how one side has tiny bit more steel vs the other. A very recent addition to my collection this month was the Albion Squire Sword and it came with character marks "blemishes" (2-3 horizontal scratches) on the tip potion past the fuller. Everything from the end of the fuller to the guard was perfect but past the fuller the central line seemed kinda mushy and seemed more lenticular vs diamond. I'll get some pictures up one of these days, feeling super lazy. Squire feels great in hand and I'm 95% happy with how it looks but sometimes I also think the folks at Albion get too comfy and laxed. Albion is the only real deal high end Production Sword business in North America that produces the quality and historically correct swords I like at the prices I'm willing to pay so there's not much else for me to choose from that'd I'd be happy with. I'm extremely forgiving about things like scratches on say the guard & pommel because "that's just weathering" and it's going to get a patina anyway, but the blade I would prefer to scratch it up myself on my own time if that makes sense. Albion recommends you you se a scotchbrite "green" pad to clean up minor scuffs/scratches... always rubbing from the hilt towards the tip. |
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Post by theophilus736 on Feb 20, 2021 1:55:37 GMT
Comes down to this. Albion makes the best production swords out there. Hands down. I've owned many, and on one it had pretty uneven fuller terminations and a pretty poorly formed pommel. Another had a wire edge.
Albion has resolved all issues I've sent swords back for. Out of probably 10 I've sent back just the one with the fuller/pommel issues.
I'd still rather have a somewhat wonky Albion over any other production sword at its height of production if they were both free.
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Post by Kane Shen on Feb 20, 2021 3:01:38 GMT
Not just uneven guards, sometimes asymmetry on blades. Minor marks and blemishes--all firsthand experience. Albion swords are made of experienced workers, not Hephaestus himself, therefore these swords will never be perfect. I do wish they eliminate more minor issues with their swords, when you pay 1-2k sometimes even more on a sword. I'm not asking for perfection, but I do think occasionally they get too comfortable. My Poitiers has that slight asymmetry on the blade you mentioned, it's pretty slight but more noticeable because of how straight/linear the profile taper is for Type XV blade. The central line is perfectly straight but it highlights how one side has tiny bit more steel vs the other. A very recent addition to my collection this month was the Albion Squire Sword and it came with character marks "blemishes" (2-3 horizontal scratches) on the tip potion past the fuller. Everything from the end of the fuller to the guard was perfect but past the fuller the central line seemed kinda mushy and seemed more lenticular vs diamond. I'll get some pictures up one of these days, feeling super lazy. Squire feels great in hand and I'm 95% happy with how it looks but sometimes I also think the folks at Albion get too comfy and laxed. Albion is the only real deal high end Production Sword business in North America that produces the quality and historically correct swords I like at the prices I'm willing to pay so there's not much else for me to choose from that'd I'd be happy with. I'm extremely forgiving about things like scratches on say the guard & pommel because "that's just weathering" and it's going to get a patina anyway, but the blade I would prefer to scratch it up myself on my own time if that makes sense. Your assessment is perfectly reasonable. Glad/sorry to know that my experience with the issues on Albion swords isn't unique. I think I have spotted similar issues on many of the photos Kult of Athena took on the Albion swords they received and sold, so presumably these issues go a lot earlier than we think. I'm not entirely sure what to make of it though. Other swordmakers have similar degree of tiny blemishes, some specimens have it worse than others. It is true that Albion and swords in similar price range are not $3000-5000 swords for the most part, but it's still a lot of money on a relatively small object. I know the processes involve a lot of manual labor and not all just precision cast, still a bit disappointment here and there. |
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Post by mpsmith47304 on Feb 26, 2021 4:22:24 GMT
Value, as always in in the eye of the consumer, but this underlines what I was saying earlier. As modern consumers we generally value the perfection of machine reproduction way more that our medieval ancestors did. Having said all that, I am sure there are blemishes serious enough that I would want corrected. It’s just interesting what things drive where the line of acceptability is for each of us.
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Post by sooter76 on Mar 22, 2021 4:15:16 GMT
I’m finally in a price range for a high end sword, particularly the Albion Viceroy, but i’ve seen in some forums that people have been noticing more problems with albion swords, such as uneven guards or scuffs on the finish. I’m wondering has anyone on here experienced this firsthand? On a side note, i’m also eyeing a Lockwood longsword that i have heard is the same high quality fit and finish as an Albion, plus if i bought a sword from there i can get a scabbard for fairly cheap I know I’m late to the party, but if you’re still thinking about a Lockwood be aware their fit and finish is not quite as perfect as Albion. This is not at all to say that Stephen Lockwood doesn’t do good work and I highly recommend him. All I am saying is his fit and finish (at least on my sword) is not as perfect as my Albion Munich. There is a small bit of gap between the blade and the guard, and the the peen is not as smooth. That said, if you don’t see exactly what you want on his website I recommend you contact him and talk to him. When I did he let me swap some parts around for a semi-custom sword, and for me that’s worth the small hit on fit and finish compared to Albion. Just something to think about... |
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Post by sooter76 on Mar 22, 2021 4:21:09 GMT
They do a lot of work to build their well deserved reputation. They certainly did their work to earn their reputation for long wait times when they made me wait 3 years for a sword... |
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Post by fester on Mar 22, 2021 12:21:42 GMT
Value, as always in in the eye of the consumer, but this underlines what I was saying earlier. As modern consumers we generally value the perfection of machine reproduction way more that our medieval ancestors did. Having said all that, I am sure there are blemishes serious enough that I would want corrected. It’s just interesting what things drive where the line of acceptability is for each of us. This was discussed in one of Tod Cutler's videos about how we in the modern world expect perfection or close to it in our swords (and other things) which our ancestors were not concerned with. They were concerned with two things: 1. Was it functional and 2. did it look good. They did not get down into the weeds so to speak and examine their swords with a fine tooth comb as we often do. He showed and discussed several examples of imperfections in medieval weapons (including high status persons weapons) that would be unacceptable to modern collectors and yet the original owners appear to have had no issue/complaints with them. Even Henry VIII's armor had imperfections in it that is obvious when you examine it up close. Even Albions with most of the imperfections discussed in previous posts would be more perfect than the majority of their medieval counterparts. The average person is not going to see the imperfections we see in swords (unless really glaring). |
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Things have changed!