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Post by YlliwCir on Aug 18, 2008 5:44:52 GMT
Hotspur, thanks for the in depth info. I really like the look of the BP and the GB is growing on me after being off put by it initially ( a totally irrational aversion to things German, I'm getting over it.)
I was aware of Deepeekas rep and had handled one of their products previous to that gladius so I wasn't expecting much. Paul Southren gave me a choice of Deepeeka ancients free of charge to me as part of the "official review team" project. I doubt I'd have bought it myself, tho stranger things have happened. I do agree it's good to gather as much info as a person can afore they lay out the cash. It don't come easy, at least for me.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2008 22:43:42 GMT
Thanks for all the input fellas. Ricwilly, did you really pose in a lavender outfit?
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Post by rammstein on Aug 18, 2008 22:54:52 GMT
Did he really
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2008 0:25:58 GMT
Thanks for all the input fellas. Ricwilly, did you really pose in a lavender outfit? Oh yeah he sure did! Can you imagine having that calender hanging in you office, then Johnny-coworker comes in and sees a guy in a dress? I wonder what he'd think? hehehe! But in all fairness Rick is one good cross dresser! But did ya have to wear the womens underwear too Rick? hehehe
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2008 0:58:44 GMT
Now in purely abstract thinking, we can put a load on a specific point, a specific distance from the fulcrum. In real life however, the load is distributed along the entire length of the sword. A mass that is close to the fulcrum(your hand) is easier to move(via mechanical advantage) than that same mass at a greater distance from the fulcrum. This is the principle behind Angus Trim's 'low polar moment' swords('moment' is a term that is roughly synonymous with 'torque'. Basically, 'polar moment' is torque felt as a result of mass that exists at the far ends of a sword, the less mass this far out from the fulcrum(your hand) the less inertia resists a change in acceleration(i.e. moving the sword) and thus low 'polar moment' results in easy to accelerate or 'fast' handling swords). Thank you very much for posting that. I know the phenomena you describe but I had no idea what the proper term for it was. Now I have a whole new world of info available to assimilate. I was actually thinking about this a lot lately and came up with an idea for enhancing polar moment a little while ago. This will help me refine that idea.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2008 5:27:59 GMT
Hey hotspur, The new gen 2 black price weight significantly less then the A&A one now. However, the A&A black prince has a very diamond shaped thrusting point compared to the gen 2 one...which is what these swords SHOULD have. Don't get me wrong, the gen 2 stabs pretty good...but the A&A one is just leaps and bounds above then gen 2 in that department. However the A&A ones does weight more now...so is a bit less wieldy when swung around then the gen 2 one.
Ramm, I have held quite a few albions I would lable as clumsy and unwieldy...but then again that is not a bad thing as basically I consider most type X clumsy and unwieldy. If they lacked that blade presence, they would not be a proper sword of their type. The ritter IS unwieldy. Just like people who buy low end stuff delude themselves into thinking their sword is better then it is, the same is true of HIGH end sword buyers as well. Just because you spend 1000 dollar does not change how physics works. You can't ignore weight and PoB and mass distrubtion just because you spent more money. A low end sword is slow and clumsy...the high end sword has authority and blade presense...bah nonsense.
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Post by rammstein on Aug 19, 2008 5:58:14 GMT
Very true, but that's not what I said at all. In my opnion, NO historical sword is clumsy. As for the ritter - it may be clumsy if you use it like a rapier but it positively FLOATS in the cut. But if your definition of clumsy is that it can't thrust, I guess I agree with you.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2008 6:52:58 GMT
No, for me how clumsy a blade is depends on how hard it is to change the blade vector. As for saying the sword floats...that is even so beyond subjective I have no idea how to agrue that so I won't. If a sword feels right in your hands, it feels right in your hands and nothing else matters. However I have used enough weapons over my life to not to trust something subjective like that over raw phsyics. Yeah I take all the magic out of things don't I .
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2008 7:33:16 GMT
Depends. Frankly, I don't see things like 'magic' and 'physics' being all that separate. I wonder what people back in the 14th century would say if they saw a modern jet flying... probably use words like 'miraculous' or 'magical'.
And saying a sword floats isn't just something some people feel and others don't, it's just a mildly poetic way of saying that it is easy to change the velocity of said sword. Something you refer to as 'blade vector'.
By the way, how 'hard' that is, it itself highly subjective... take that 'raw' physics.
(no offense meant - just sayin')
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Post by hotspur on Aug 19, 2008 8:27:08 GMT
Hey hotspur, The new gen 2 black price weight significantly less then the A&A one now. However, the A&A black prince has a very diamond shaped thrusting point compared to the gen 2 one...which is what these swords SHOULD have. Don't get me wrong, the gen 2 stabs pretty good...but the A&A one is just leaps and bounds above then gen 2 in that department. However the A&A ones does weight more now...so is a bit less wieldy when swung around then the gen 2 one. Ramm, I have held quite a few albions I would lable as clumsy and unwieldy...but then again that is not a bad thing as basically I consider most type X clumsy and unwieldy. If they lacked that blade presence, they would not be a proper sword of their type. The ritter IS unwieldy. Just like people who buy low end stuff delude themselves into thinking their sword is better then it is, the same is true of HIGH end sword buyers as well. Just because you spend 1000 dollar does not change how physics works. You can't ignore weight and PoB and mass distrubtion just because you spent more money. A low end sword is slow and clumsy...the high end sword has authority and blade presense...bah nonsense. That's interesting. I just went and weighed mine again. I still get 3lbs 8ozs, which is what I thought I would. Somehow I glossed over that the myArmoury review lists 3lbs 11ozs for that review piece and that a few sites now list the G2 at 3lbs 2ozs. I don't know how bronze fittings and a simpler handle add up to that much diffrence between mine and the newer updated A&A but the sword is plenty lively, by most accounts of those owning the A&A. It sounds like the G2 BP became a lot more like the Lucerne, which actually got a decent peer review. I won't touch the rest of the generalizations you are offering except to say some swords did different jobs than others. I think you know that though and are saying as much. You also seem to like swords where the weight is in your hand, that's fine. Porsche and BMW race most weekends. They both win their share of races. What I have always said is that it is more a user (now or then) making the best use of tools at hand. Cheers Hotspur; different strokes for different folks
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2008 5:25:46 GMT
Yeah I wasn't saying that the A&A BP is a clunker or anything of the sort. It is a very agile blade. But the gen 2 one is a bit more agile in the swing. But oh so much worse at thrusting. I like the A&A one much better mind you . And yeah, the gen 2 black prince is a lot like the lucerne now...except more blade and less handle...which makes the lucerne an overall better sword. But I like the black prince better anyways hehe. And yes hotspur, I do like hilt heavy swords. But I do realize that preference comes at costs and I am under no delusion that a XVa sword will be a great cutter. It's all physics. You have give something to get something and then fiddle with it till you find what you like . Adam...how about replacing hard with force? Ya happy now ;D ? There perfectly objective.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2008 4:17:31 GMT
Heh, I agree that 'lively' is a subjective word... my Gen2 BP felt like a crowbar two months ago... two months.. and a whole lot of training later... it feels rather comfortable in my hands.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2008 17:15:34 GMT
To me it comes down to some swords are sportscars and some are trucks. That's a good thing though. When you want speed and agility a sportscar is the way to go but when you need a truck nothing else will really do. I would say "clumsy" is the result of a poorly engineered sword but a well thought out truck that handles like a truck isn't clumsy, it is right for what it is. While it may not handle like the sportscar it will do everything it needs to do. Personally I like trucks.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2008 19:03:53 GMT
That's not entirely a good analogy. It implies that the cheaper 'trucks' of the sword world are tougher and more rugged than the 'sports cars', which isn't the case. Not in the least.
Tough as Gen2s are - Atrims and Albions are tougher. Even in my experience of Darksword Armory pieces I can tell you that Albions are tougher due to their peened construction and much closer tolerances.
See, you can do things with a good truck you can't do with a sportscar. But there is nothing a low end sword can do that a high end one can't - except have a lot of issues.
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Post by YlliwCir on Aug 22, 2008 19:10:14 GMT
I think that's probably true for the most part, Adam. I do think there are exceptions. I have a Rittersteel full tang sword that I'd bet would hold up better than my Albion Poitiers to say, chopping on a tree. While I know this is abuse, it is something the more refined sword can't do and the cheaper beater can.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2008 19:43:02 GMT
Tough as Gen2s are - Atrims and Albions are tougher. Even in my experience of Darksword Armory pieces I can tell you that Albions are tougher due to their peened construction and much closer tolerances. I'm not sure about atrim being tough. They are GREAT swords mind you...but I wouldn't call them exactly tough. Oddly enough I do agree that they are tougher then gen 2 in some aspects. For instance, they are HT harder then gen 2s are. But that doesn't make then tougher per say. Although yeah an albion does eclipse a gen 2 in just about every respect . Anyways, I think the analogy works great for sword types though. Think of a sports car as the type XV and a truck as the type XI. That works pretty well don't ya think?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2008 21:28:42 GMT
Not in terms of durability or even handling or things like that.
And ask Shootermike and Tsafa for their confirmation of my assertion that a good Atrim is tougher than any Gen2.
Tsafa made several cuts on mats and water bottles that would've positively bent a gen2 (tough and well tempered though they may be) with an atrim that didn't have any damage. I've got some video, I guess I'll post it.
Ask Shootermike about the Atrim he went to cut with and botched the cut, folding the blade over itself, only to have it spring back true and straight.
Atrims are as tough as albions in most cases.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2008 22:38:06 GMT
So, an Albion is tougher than any gen 2 sword? We know this for an absolute fact?
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Post by YlliwCir on Aug 22, 2008 23:13:36 GMT
I'll have to agree Ablions are tougher than Gen2s. The tang construction is better, hilt and pommel are securely affixed first and then the grip is added so no compression assembly. www.albion-swords.com/howitsmade.htm I have a few gen2s and only one Albion but the steel appears superior to me also. Also Gen's have a threaded rod welded onto the end of their tang, this I only learned recently. /index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=5634&page=1
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2008 23:20:15 GMT
So, an Albion is tougher than any gen 2 sword? We know this for an absolute fact? Yes. No offense to Gen2 of course - they are just about as tough as a sword can get in their price range. The hilt assemblies are going to be similar - Gen2 epoxies their hilts together so they're about as solid as an Albion one. But albion blades can take more severe punishment before taking a set or suffering edge damage.
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