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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2008 0:49:11 GMT
Oh OK,... i know that story...
That would definitely be a Western designed sword cane...
But even still, sword canes are found throughout history in numerous countries. So its not all that cheesy really,... hope that makes you feel better about buying one. ;D
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2008 0:51:52 GMT
I do feel somewhat better now about the purchase. I got a good price on it so we will see. As far as what type of Japanese sword cane, I was thinking of the blind swordsman. His name escapes me, but maybe this was more of a swordstick?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2008 0:59:17 GMT
Oh OK,... i know that story... That would definitely be a Western designed sword cane... But even still, sword canes are found throughout history in numerous countries. So its not all that cheesy really,... hope that makes you feel better about buying one. ;D EDIT: Unless i'm mistaken they have the information a little mixed up there? The sandbar duel was fought by Samuel Levi Wells, III, and Dr. Thomas H. Maddox, and took place near Vidalia, Louisiana. Among the witnesses was a Major Norris Wright of Rapides Parish, and Jim Bowie, who were bitter enemies. The duel ended after two volleys with no winner and was stopped. Its said that Norris attacked Bowie with a sword cane after a few civilians were killed by celebratory gunfire. Bowie won the encounter and from that day the large knife he used to kill Norris would be referred to as a "Bowie Knife". I did some research on it recently to try and find out what qualifies a knife as a "Bowie Knife?" As far as i can tell it needs to have a sharpened spine at the tip that is made to have a subtle curve.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2008 1:03:13 GMT
You are correct sir. The duel was between two different gentleman, and at its conclusion, a free-for-all erupted and at the end, four men were wounded and two lay dead. Bowie was stabbed by Wright with a sword cane, and Bowie then dispatched him with his knife.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2008 1:14:45 GMT
I do feel somewhat better now about the purchase. I got a good price on it so we will see. As far as what type of Japanese sword cane, I was thinking of the blind swordsman. His name escapes me, but maybe this was more of a swordstick? I cannot remember his name either? In Japan Shikomi-zue (sword cane) mountings were almost all made after the Meiji Restoration. The majority of the blades in this mounting at the time were of poor grade. They were meant to get around the laws about carrying swords in public. These mountings are not very safe for everyday use, and i would recommend that if you want to do heavy cutting, that you go with a buke-zukuri type of mountings. These are seen in history as being a desperate attempt to maintain the cultural traditions by the Japanese warriors who carried them. And they would probably only be used as a last resort....
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2008 2:01:51 GMT
On the subject of handling it should be noted that many historical swords balance pretty far down the blade, some at around 8 inches even. This is intentional, it makes for a good cutter and/or allows for greater durability in the blade. It also means that, depending on what your definition of handling is, they wouldn't handle as well as many modern swords that balance closer to 4 inches even though other aspects of design also come into play when discussing handling. I think a lot of this is driven by the modern market in an over-reaction to the poor quality swords that were available a scant 10 years ago as well as the near legendary meme of the "well balanced sword" found throughout fictional literature without any real consideration as to what constitutes "well balanced" for a given type of sword. Speed and agility are important in a sword but a sword is only a tool designed to perform a particular job and the performance of that job takes primacy over speed and agility otherwise all swords would be smallswords.
Iaido aside, sword fights are not races they are tactical encounters. The back and forth of swashbuckler and kung-fu movies isn't the ideal or the reality. In reality a skilled swordsman in an earnest combat would most likely execute two or maybe three discrete techniques, at least one of which will mortally wound his adversary. There is another alternative, it looks more like two stray cats having it out with eachother, and in real terms would typically end in the death of both combatants if it weren't for armor which is why right of way is stressed in the surviving schools of fence that have a dueling lineage. If you're talking massed battles in armor you're talking about a lot of stray cats.
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Post by rammstein on Aug 18, 2008 2:16:41 GMT
Hammerhand, you'd be very surprised.
I've handled swords that have a PoB of 8 inches that handle positively amazingly. In fact, I'd say PoB is totally irrelevent. A lot of handling aspects are independant to where the sword balances. Just because a PoB is far out doesn't mean that it is a poor handling sword. The Albion Gaddjhalt hasa PoB of something like8 or 9 inches and I've never heard anyone call it clumsy. My albion ritter has a PoB of about 6 inches and I've never felt a sword that floats better than it.
Just a side note a longsword from MRL that had a PoB of only 2 inches was passed off on myarmoury as handling like a sword hilt with a plastic blade. Now, I don't know about you, but this to me means that it handles like crap.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2008 2:36:58 GMT
Just to add to this conversation...
It should also be taken into account that POB is always measured in units from the top of the hilt or guard up. Many swords differ in the sizee of they're handles, so while the POB number may be different it has alot to do with the construction and dimensions of the swords mountings.
Example: A sword with a 12" handle, and lets say a 4" POB... A sword with a 10" handle, and lets say a 6" POB...
Theoretically they should handle the same even though the numbers are different. Does that make sense? I dunno, maybe i'm mistaken?
EDIT: I forgot to include weight into the equation,... i am not very sure about my post here but i am interested in this idea. Anyone have any ideas on this subject? The more the merrier!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2008 2:55:41 GMT
Actually I agree. A sword should feel right for what it was intended to do. I remember visiting a now defunct cutlery store in the late 90's and looking at their SLO's. A salesman commented that he particularly liked a Conan knockoff sword because it handled well due to its balance. The point of balance was very close to neutral but between its weight, poor guard design and massive grip it handled like a piece of firewood. I suppose it was good enough for its intended task of hanging on a wall.
POB and within reason even weight aren't what I'd consider the prime factors in a good handling sword even though they are contributing factors. I feel that good handling is determined more by things like the design of the entire hilt assembly and intended usage of the weapon and you definitely can't discount proper harmonic balance or structural integrity. I really hate rattly swords. My point is it seems many people expect all swords to be sports cars even though some should be trucks. As I said it's all about being properly suited to the intended task.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2008 3:02:55 GMT
Just to add to this conversation... It should also be taken into account that POB is always measured in units from the top of the hilt or guard up. Many swords differ in the sizee of they're handles, so while the POB number may be different it has alot to do with the construction and dimensions of the swords mountings. Example: A sword with a 12" handle, and lets say a 4" POB... A sword with a 10" handle, and lets say a 6" POB... Theoretically they should handle the same even though the numbers are different. Does that make sense? I dunno, maybe i'm mistaken? EDIT: I forgot to include weight into the equation,... i am not very sure about my post here but i am interested in this idea. Anyone have any ideas on this subject? The more the merrier! Just to clarify by "up" do you mean toward the pommel or toward the point? To me "up" is toward the point, I suppose because as a fencer that is the end I would normally direct towards an opponent. I get the impression the opposite is what is in general use, that "up" is toward the pommel, maybe because that is the more common orientation when displaying a sword? What always gets me is the "down curving cross" that I interpret as curving upward, "this side toward enemy!"
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2008 3:14:41 GMT
Naturally i meant "up" as in heading in the direction of the point.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2008 3:15:26 GMT
Just to add to this conversation... It should also be taken into account that POB is always measured in units from the top of the hilt or guard up. Many swords differ in the sizee of they're handles, so while the POB number may be different it has alot to do with the construction and dimensions of the swords mountings. Example: A sword with a 12" handle, and lets say a 4" POB... A sword with a 10" handle, and lets say a 6" POB... Theoretically they should handle the same even though the numbers are different. Does that make sense? I dunno, maybe i'm mistaken? EDIT: I forgot to include weight into the equation,... i am not very sure about my post here but i am interested in this idea. Anyone have any ideas on this subject? The more the merrier!Well, there's a lot more to it than that, but generally what it comes down to is this: A sword is moved when you apply force to it through your hand. Your hand makes contact on the sword in several places throughout your grip, and different sized hands and methods of gripping, in addition to the very shape of the sword's handle all affect this more than most people realize. More than that though, whenever an object is going to be moved from a state of rest(or even a state of motion) that object resists change to its current velocity(even if that velocity is zero) via a phenomenon we call 'inertia'. The more mass an object has, the more inertia it has. But swords are more than just mass, they're levers. In most grips, the fulcrum of the lever is on the most forward part of the hand holding it(for a single handed sword), this is because this is the part of the hand that is closest to the swords CoB and where the 'weight' of the sword is felt. The rest of the hand acts as the 'effort', whereas the sword's weight itself is, what we would call in a physics context the 'load'. Now in purely abstract thinking, we can put a load on a specific point, a specific distance from the fulcrum. In real life however, the load is distributed along the entire length of the sword. A mass that is close to the fulcrum(your hand) is easier to move(via mechanical advantage) than that same mass at a greater distance from the fulcrum. This is the principle behind Angus Trim's 'low polar moment' swords('moment' is a term that is roughly synonymous with 'torque'. Basically, 'polar moment' is torque felt as a result of mass that exists at the far ends of a sword, the less mass this far out from the fulcrum(your hand) the less inertia resists a change in acceleration(i.e. moving the sword) and thus low 'polar moment' results in easy to accelerate or 'fast' handling swords). Note that the Center of Balance makes, as stated by others, little to no difference at all in the actual handling of swords, since handling is only affected by the three components of the lever: the Fulcrum(your hand), the effort(your effort to move the sword) and the load(the sword's blade itself). The CoB is where the majority of the weight of a sword is felt when holding it still. This is why some swords that seem heavy-ish or that have a relatively far CoB can still handle surprisingly fast. We call the intelligent tapering of a sword blade to allocate it's mass(and therefore 'moment' and the resulting 'inertia') the 'Distribution of mass' of a blade. This has the biggest effect on handling of a sword. Distribution of mass itself is controlled by tapering the blade's profile, and also by tapering the blade distally. I can almost guarantee that ANY sword that is sub $300 doesn't have any sortof intelligence behind its distribution of mass and this is why they tend to handle poorly compared to their more expensive counterparts. In the last year or so, 'distal taper' is becoming more well known, and some low end sword manufacturers are beginning to include it. But like most things, all 'distal taper's are not created equally. I highly recommend reading this review courtesy of Myarmoury.com on a sword designed by Peter Johnsson and taking note of its distal taper and how this directly affects handling.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2008 3:26:55 GMT
Yes, i am well aware of the things you mentioned Adam, the specific aspect i was talking about was in response to hammerhand's posts about swords with different points of balance performing almost identically, and my question was how the hilt length and weight plays into that. Do you have anything that is a direct response to that question?
EDIT: Keep in mind, i have taken physics in college so please don't feel the need to "dumb it down" for me either...
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2008 3:34:15 GMT
I wasn't trying to educate you particularly Jim, I was just elaborating on your post.
Let me see if this is closer to what you were talking about with hilt length:
The farther the pommel is from the blade, the more effect it's weight has on bringing the CoB closer to the hilt. Of course, this is also adding a lot of inertia to the poles of the sword(poles being the extremities).
So yes, I can easily see a sword with a 10'' hilt and farther PoB handling the same as a sword with a 12'' hilt and closer PoB. But I can just as easily see either one handling very much better or worse than the other, depending on how much attention is put into those other aspects of balancing a sword.
Really, the balance of a european sword is literally based on all parts of it: the weight of the pommel, the length of the blade, it's overall weight, it's distribution of mass / distal and profile taper, the length and shape of the grip... they all come together to make the sword handle how it does, and ignoring one or more aspects of this will always yield to poorer balanced swords - unless the maker gets lucky.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2008 3:42:00 GMT
No, i didn't mean it like i thought you were trying to educate me on physics. I was just trying to save you alot of time in having to explain the terminology. It can be a real pain trying to explain something to someone who has absolutely no knowledge of it....! ;D But yeah, its seems there can really be no definite answer to this question when so many other aspects come into play... Its interesting food for the brain indeed though!
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Post by hotspur on Aug 18, 2008 3:44:49 GMT
RicWilly pondered the Black Prince from A&A. It is a sword I own that I like very much but don't buy it for a back yard cutter and expect to be wowed at its capabilities in that venue. It is a very nice XVa though. It will cut mats and bottles but bear in mind the crossection is near square at the point. Along about the bent G2 Henry V thread, I was tempted to photograph my three A&A points. There is very little distal taper to the A&A BP, yet it has always beat the G2 weight spec. Would you believe it was priced under $400 in 1998? I paid something like $425 a few years later. Nice sword. I like mine a great deal.
As to compression fitted swords prior to the renaissance, yes and more common than you might think, as well as earlier than you might think. I have mentioned it in threads here before that if you pull out a copy of Oakeshott's Records, you'll see quite a few. Including a quite early sword with ferrules that could only have been installed on a compression type fitment. I am not knocking Albion's hilt construction but they use it on swords later than it was commonly found historically.
Rammstein, I don't like to single you out as being a bit enthusiastic but the following is the type of thing that prompted my very first posts to this forum and our very first PM exchanges concerning profiles of falchions.
Just a side note, the higher quality blades came from northern italy, solingen, and toledo - these were swords of the rich.
Unattributed nonsense, I say ;D Honest, I have to wonder if it is all just a bit jumbled, or if you make stuff up as you go along. Sa9id in some humor but with the same old concerns that draw me to needing to clarify or correct. Soligen became a blade center long after Passau was well renowned. Northern Italy? Where specifically and whom? More famous for armour works anyway:p Toledo? I'll try to be a bit gracious but the "these were the swords of the rich" comment really has no foundation in fact without putting it in much clearer context. What about the historically favored (noted by chroniclers) swords of Burgandy during the late XIVth and early XVth centuries. At least throw some context into the story telling a little. William loaded barrels of swords on the ships bound for England (1066 and all that). Plain swords (from the same blade sources as the fancy cutlery) were commonplace amognst peasants by the mid XIVth century (tax and port records along with medieval economics studies).
"Swords of the rich" What is truly amazing is the turn around I see in philosophies of folk posting to SBG. From the "why in the world would anyone spend the money for one of those when I can beat the pemmican out of something cheaper?" To the "You really don't know what you are missing until you handle one" Which is what those whom had been classified as snobs had been saying all along. That context is hopefully not lost and I hope that SGB can survive in continuing to promote less expensive swords. I remember Mike posting that he had been drawn to the dark side but hoped to be able to still relate with the economy cutters. It seems to be working out for him so far.
As to the original premise of the thread, yes, there are some cost considerations for accuracy. No matter how hard some try to get things right, there will always be somethingthat could be improved. American made and UK made western swords continue to cost a premiunm. Even the CZech stuff is going up and Del Tin has been going up just about every year too.
I recently noticed even Windlass has started to increase a bit for MSRP. Considering the shear number of new swords they have pumped out year after year, they probably still account for a very real portion of the overall sword market. Best approached as known to have those hilt compromisese, there have been a supring number of very well received models.
Hanwei, I look forward to more good things and their taking on the old CAS line is nothing less than amazing. I would have dumped them all in a heartbeat (and won't be suprised when they drop most).
There is so much more available to the buyer now than there used to be and the discriminating repeat buyers are a lot more savvy due to the web presence of all the boards. The last real hurdle is encouraging folk not to look at sword purchases as disposable income. We still see a lot of what could be called not so much buyers remores but buyers justification going on. It is tough for me to watch folk take one for the team as justification for cash outlay.
In the end, it is only the individual that can make the choice and justify the expense but silly to be critical of cheap swords that may not measure up to what some might consider historical. I do have a problem with manufacture that purports to be designed from extant example and then does not measure up. My solution is to try to keep it in context of cost and expectation.
We shouldn't have to make concession about historic fact though and that is what really prompted my reply. Compression fitment? More common than you might think. Rammstein, you need to write a novel about swords of the rich (said as a kindly old fart and not as a pointy stick to your eye).
Cheers
Hotspur; Oh yeah, I really just wanted to endorse the BP from A&A as well
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Post by rammstein on Aug 18, 2008 3:51:59 GMT
perhaps, I overgeneralized? My "of the rich" comment was probably incorrect - what I meant is that the rich sought these swords out. Much of the steel that the nobles of europe used came from these areas. As to northern italy. I may be mistaken but I could have sworn I saw somewhere that italian swords were prized. The key here, though, is "somewhere." Thank you for the comment about passau and burgundy, I had TOTALLY forgotten about that first city and didn't even know the second area was known for it's blades
Again, I didn't mean that solingen et al just supplied swords to the wealthy or any sort of lunacy like that. I just meant that their swords were sought after. And even then, I'm sure there were bladesmiths from these areas who did not live upto their city's reputation and were just typical smiths.
For the record, I've never been n the side of people who say that these great swords were precious and never used in battle. I think my comment was just poorly worded on my behalf, I'm sorry. Also, I don't think this conversation is representative of most of SBG. The older members here (myself, adam, shootermike, etc.) have all had our own growths and I think that's what your seeing more of here than SBG in general.
(I know you don't care about karma but +1)
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2008 3:53:01 GMT
The last real hurdle is encouraging folk not to look at sword purchases as disposable income. We still see a lot of what could be called not so much buyers remores but buyers justification going on. It is tough for me to watch folk take one for the team as justification for cash outlay. That was inspired.... +1 for that excellent point.
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Post by YlliwCir on Aug 18, 2008 4:47:02 GMT
Thanks for the input on the BP, Hotspur. I didn't really expect it'd be a great cutter, looks for stickin to me. I got plenty good cutters, been practicing my thrustin lately. I'm thinking I should have an A&A at some point and thats one of the few they have that appeals to me.
As for "taking one for the team". I don't approve of that for the sake of it. Still if no one ever bought one and let the rest of know, how we goin to find the good ones?
All in all, most of my swords in the under $300 range I have been satisfied with, some I've sent back and a few have been very pleasant surprises. I don't care much about historical accuracy, more about performance to me.
Goes without saying the phrase "you get what you pay for" is usually right. However I think there is room for a broader spectrum at least in my collection. For now anyway. ;D
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Post by hotspur on Aug 18, 2008 5:27:22 GMT
The Deepeeka Gladius as an example. You may have been working on good faith of ad copy but Deepeeka does have a webpage. Deepeeka does have a researchable reputation. Dig deep enough and you'll even find a post from a rep on myArmoury. It is one instance of discovery done post mortem that comes to mind here. Many such unknowns are actually fairly researchable and judged without having to buy and destroy one. More on the BP A&A used to be the only real upscale game in town for a XVa but now you can add at least a half dozen from Albion to the mix. Each may have their own unique benefits, although some share blades. Nathan Robinson did a very nice overview of the XV typology in the myArmoury Oakeshott series. The A&A sword was upgraded several years ago to do a grip with risers and the pommel decoration, so aesthetically, it is a prettier sword than what I bought (and some of the cost difference). The A&A is an interesting grind in that the primary grind/bevel gets steeper as it goes pointward. This is one sword that actually cuts better inside the cop, as opposed to other swords that typically cut better from the cop to the point. Telephine books are good for thrusting at. You could probably bore pressure treated lumber with it. A very rigid sword that handles very well for the thrust. One of my bechmarks used to be a hollow core door and one thing I did with mine early on was to halfsword as if going down past a gorget at shoulder hieght and pushing the blade well through both sides. This is also the sword that prompted my 50 cal lead balls in the 2-litre bottle stuffed in a leather boot target. Initially for thrusing (as empties were so prone to running away) but then doing some cutting. Perturbed at first while knocking it about, I took a break and ran some errands. Coming back to it, I grabbed a known cutter (XIIIa) and sank the blade halfway through the target (the lead balls mostly displace. Having thought out the XVa abit on my errands and proving I could still cut (the XIIIa) I went to work with the XVa again and nearly duplicated the depth of cut through the boot n lead filled bottle. It is not a favorite at the cutting stand with mats but when it has a chance, I still like to do at least one mat up with it. It is just a different philosophy than cutting unpinned mat stumps with the tip of the Xiiia, or zinging through empty cartons and bottles with some others. Here's my bronze fitted BP with a GB, you'll be needing one of those too (ask Mike). Cheers Hotspur; I would have listed it as my favorite sword in the other thread but purpose and fascination changes some over the years. It is still in my upper echelon of favorites
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