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Post by tsmspace on Aug 8, 2020 20:45:15 GMT
I waited like nine billion. I gave up already. but it arrived this morning. I totally missed on the dimensions on it, my imagination was not very accurate. It's not a disappointment, actually I am much more pleased, but I did totally miss the ...... point. and the rest of the dimensions also. The sword is really a good size. It's like if I had a stinger. It's very light, and although the blade is a very small blade, it doesn't feel weak. Part of my sensation is a result of handling many more swords and comparing against them, so I'm sure if my experience were in bats, then I still think I would feel the sword feels like it will hold together. There is a part I don't like. Whoever finished the blade seems to have put a bit of a swell in it by removing too much material right at the base on the spin. It doesn't look like a real problem, but I would sat that right at the point of balance it gets as thick as it gets, and then it seems to remain thicker for several inches before tapering from there. It doesn't really taper towards the hilt, it seems to just get narrower suddenly then stay that size. perhaps this will affect flex or perhaps not really. I'm inclined to think of it as a manufacturing imperfection although I can imagine where it might be a design consideration, as the point of balance might be where the spine SHOULD be thickest, with taper in both ways,, I've just never heard of it, and it seems to me it should be thickest at the hilt and taper from there. The blade doesn't really taper, though, it's pretty thin already. Like I said, it seems to feel fine, really good actually, like a smallsword or something. I didn't order it sharpened, it's still the original finish. The quality of the edge finish is much better than the universal swords saber I got. THe amount of removal I had to do for that one was very inconsistent up the blade. Sure, when all was said and done it matters not, I removed all the extra metal,,,, but this windlass is very consistent and will be much nicer to sharpen. I haven't decided how I will profile the edge. I have basically 2 options. I can work down the entire bevel, or make a secondary bevel. I'm still on the fence about what is the best thing to do with a sword. option 2 results in a much more durable "corner", but option 1 is of course more : beautiful, sharp, work to make, difficult to maintain, work to re-hone, able to cut bottles. ,,,, So I think I plan to go with option 1. I don't know what counts as "historical", but I seem to have this idea that sharpening might have been done with wheels, which would make bringing the entire bevel down much easier than if it were filed down. A smith could just charge for sharpening, and people could just bring their swords in and he could make a nice single bevel, and any secondary bevelling could be tiny and just something one might do in the field,,,, OR,,, it might be better to have the thicker corner of the edge that a secondary bevel provides, and maybe that was just better, you don't need the wafer thin edge, and you would never sacrifice the durability, and honing a secondary bevel is actually "easier" in a way, because you already have the right surface and it's small enough to work by hand. then again,,, maybe during the time the sorts of stones and files one would need to hand-work the whole bevel would be the norm, it's not a large bevel like what's on a katana, it already isn't really THAT much metal. anyway,,, I'm not the MOST stoked about this sword anymore, because I have so many, and also it took 9 billion in the mail. (no fault of Kult of Athena, they actually sent TWO lost mail requests for me over time, it was just stuck at the airport or something with the corona). HOwever, the sword is better than my arming swords for MANY reasons,,, arming swords are quite a bit bigger, they just don't work the same in any way, I haven't gotten a good arming sword that feels like the kind of beater this windlass can be, (maybe I should get a windlass arming sword), this sword feels like I can play with it a lot more without ever regretting the edge or finish,, even the ronin katana wants me to treat it like an heirloom, this one feels like a chucky toy. If I were a soldier, all but that one moment I were going to slice I would prefer the chucky toy. ,,,, all said and done, though, I feel like this is one of the more valuable purchases. IT was super cheap at brand new prices, it's light, it's small, it could go beater easy, and it's much more appropriate as a weapon for a person of my stature. I don't want a weapon, but I do want to think about what that feels like, and what it means. (what makes the appropriate weapon is a mechanical decision. It's a blend of necessary results, mechanical considerations like speed, agility, durability and how, ,,, it's also a thought exercise in what sort of physique one might develop as a result, and how this might interact with other practices or equipment, etc. )
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Post by strigoil on Aug 8, 2020 21:20:46 GMT
While I can't speak to if this specific sword is supposed to taper like you describe, it is common for some swords to not have a linear taper. They can taper very little and then suddenly taper a lot towards the end, and I believe this was fairly common with sabres, but I may be wrong.
But then again, it is also a windlass so you can't expect perfection in dimension and taper.
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Post by pgandy on Aug 9, 2020 0:08:22 GMT
As strigoil said some swords do not have a linear tape. But consider what you have an imperfection. Glad you finally got it. A spadroon will handle differently to what you are use to. They are quite fast and nimble, primarily designed to give point but will cut. Don’t forget to sharpen the false edge also.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Aug 9, 2020 4:50:28 GMT
Take down the whole edge profile and flatten it to a sharp edge.
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Post by pgandy on Aug 9, 2020 13:06:50 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2020 14:32:33 GMT
I really love mine, which was customized by our own Jordan Williams.
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Post by tsmspace on Aug 9, 2020 19:05:09 GMT
Take down the whole edge profile and flatten it to a sharp edge. so you mean option one. That's my plan. I have a universal swords saber (1845 wilkinson light cavalry) I sharpened this week. It was really uneven to begin with, I don't give it a high review. It's not a disappointment, but it's not impressive. I didn't take all week, I worked on it in little bits. I filed it down a lot, but started polishing it probably too early. Also, I used a really rapid removal file, so, there are a lot of digs still visible. I can probably smooth it down and it will be more well sharpened, but that will take 9 billion. I ordered a flattening stone, I might try to use that. I also ordered some small 180 grit shaped stones (like the long triangle, the long circle), but when the stones are small like that I already filed it to an uneven surface and have been polishing it to a more even surface, by now I might want to stick to larger stones so that the surface is more even, less wavy. The universal swords is also in a steel scabbard, but it's much tighter, and feels like it's going to ruin the edge. Well, I don't think the steel is good enough to store it in cardboard in order to preserve the edge. I had a bad cut this morning it's already bent some. The windlass might do that but I don't know. My other windlass swords feel much better of a steel than the universal swords for holding a bottle-cutting edge. this is what I imagine as the proper edge geometry. I have no reason to think this other than I've used the stone wheel before, and they used to be quite common,,, a LOT of people used to have things like this in europe. Farmers all had one, anyone with a shop, it was really common for every "village" or whichever community unit to have a few friends they could hire to sharpen their axes and such. There was one in my house for a little while, while I lived on holiday in a preserved farm house. (after the berlin wall went down, and the czech split, and such westernization, a lot of houses from the eastern side were perfectly preserved, as the people still lived in those early 1900's ways. ) ,, In this case, actually, a small secondary bevel would make sense,,, the primary bevel would be slightly concave from the wheel, (you could use the edges of the wheel to make tighter concaves) and then you would just hone down the very end which would remain a fairly consistent thickness even after much sharpening. This is probably just psuedo science though. There's really no reason to think people used these kind of wheels on swords. edit: Here's a quick video of my sharpening on the 1845 universal wilkinson
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Post by pgandy on Aug 9, 2020 21:35:17 GMT
Here’s suggestions for those high spots on your wavy P1845. Get a sanding block of several inches in length some coarse paper and sand in the direction of the longitudinal direction of the blade until you have levelled them with the low spots. Or use the coarse side followed the smoother side of a common whetstone from your local hardware store. Again lay it long wise on the blade and go the length of the blade. Grinding wheels were common to sharpen in the past. The militaries used them. I’ve seen photos. There was a fellow that came by the house offering a sharpening service. The sucker didn’t know what he was doing. That was obvious when he started on the flat side of the blades on my garden shears. I did see a fellow with a portable electric motor, grinding wheel attached, connected to a motorcycle battery offering his services. Which I thought strange as most such motors operator off of AC yet he had a battery. As I’ve said before a steel scabbard will remove a sharp edge and I got around this by applying masking tape, blue painter’s tape works also, over the edge when returning the sword. I’ve learned to use two layers as frequently I cut through a single layer if left on too long. Below is a photo of tape on my M1860. Sorry about the focus but the camera insisted on focusing on the table cloth. In this case it was only a single wrap around the blade to hold the end of the tape running along the edge down as it wanted to curl. You can see that tape on the lower part of blade running left of the wrap. That scabbard has a brass throat which should be easier on the blade than the steel throat on my M1902, which was doing a number on the false edge to that sword before wrapping that edge also. The false edge on the M1860 is not sharpened. The photo shows potentially what the scabbard can do. I lost the edge on my cutlass in four days.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2020 1:55:38 GMT
Grinding wheels go way back and continued into the 20th century and beyond. Ideally, one needs to follow the original bevel/ A secondary bevel may seem inevitable but the angle of that ranged from as close to factory bevel angle to what the armourer put on the blade. To be honest, there is little evidence either the nco or musician swords were sharpened, aside from industrious souls. They are very much, thrusting swords. There is little likelihood they would cut through uniform tunics and coats even if sharpened. The point is where it's at. Cheers GC
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Post by tsmspace on Aug 10, 2020 2:26:32 GMT
Grinding wheels go way back and continued into the 20th century and beyond. Ideally, one needs to follow the original bevel/ A secondary bevel may seem inevitable but the angle of that ranged from as close to factory bevel angle to what the armourer put on the blade. To be honest, there is little evidence either the nco or musician swords were sharpened, aside from industrious souls. They are very much, thrusting swords. There is little likelihood they would cut through uniform tunics and coats even if sharpened. The point is where it's at. Cheers GC edit: below I say civil war. Ok, looks like that's not the right group of guys,,,, but anyway,,, I still mean the same more modern, swords suck compared to guns, group of guys. well,, I guess I'm not QUITE so focused on the NCO sword specifically, as I am with the "class of sword". The blade is like an edged smallsword, but also somewhat lighter. The blade is quite similar to a LOT of swords that were used before then in the catalog. So I have the sword because it fits into the particular general class of sword. So, true, I can imagine a scenario where by the time they were used in the civil war, it was considered basically a hand-bayonet, and sharpening wouldn't have helped much,,, but I CAN'T imagine that approach being the standard throughout the life of the blade shape. For one thing, being sharpened makes the stab much more efficient, so it would penetrate MUCH BETTER through heavy cloth while sharp. It's perfectly true that you could probably stab the blunt sword into any of the expected targets, but on the other hand, it might NOT be true that every attempt at a stab will result in a successful stab. If they are towards the limit of your reach, for example, or you don't have time to commit to a full power stab while dodging the opponents attacks, or if you need to stab through extra materials such as straps or packs, then you might fail with the dull sword, and succeed with the sharpened one. Also, if your sword is sharpened, a bare hand will be much less inclined to try to grab at your blade, and if you are in a battle-line with chaos everywhere, it gets more and more likely that someone will be where they can do so. They don't need to hold it for long for you to be hit by someone elses bayonet. ,,,, so, basically I definitely think the wisdom of the class of sword, was sharpen it, keep it sharp, sharper is better.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2020 3:23:05 GMT
1840 was not the ACW
Regardless, the concept of maintaining the manufactured bevels holds true when sharpening.
No one is intent on grabbing at a blade unless they are gloved (unless you are Liam Neeson playing Rob Roy).
There is no reason to imagine anything, as history is well recorded by that era.
"The blade is like an edged smallsword, but also somewhat lighter." The nco sword is heavier than any smallsword, by far.
As to the efficacy of a skinny spadroon blade for cutting, sure it has more cutting capability when sharp but that doesn't really differ from personal preferences and the reality of history. The m1840 nco was a badge of rank and the musician swords mostly accouterments worthy as a weapon but rarely used.
The US m1840 nco can be lumped in with spadroons in general but they are heavier and less a cutter than lighter and broader bladed spadroons. The US m1840 was derived from sticking a skinny Germanic type spadroon blade into a French 1816 hilt. The French double edge blades actually had more going for them. The choice more in line with economics in production.
Since you have it all figured out, my thoughts are probably a waste of time.
Cheers GC
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Post by tsmspace on Aug 10, 2020 3:51:52 GMT
1840 was not the ACW Regardless, the concept of maintaining the manufactured bevels holds true when sharpening. No one is intent on grabbing at a blade unless they are gloved (unless you are Liam Neeson playing Rob Roy). There is no reason to imagine anything, as history is well recorded by that era. "The blade is like an edged smallsword, but also somewhat lighter." The nco sword is heavier than any smallsword, by far. As to the efficacy of a skinny spadroon blade for cutting, sure it has more cutting capability when sharp but that doesn't really differ from personal preferences and the reality of history. The m1840 nco was a badge of rank and the musician swords mostly accouterments worthy as a weapon but rarely used. The US m1840 nco can be lumped in with spadroons in general but they are heavier and less a cutter than lighter and broader bladed spadroons. The US m1840 was derived from sticking a skinny Germanic type spadroon blade into a French 1816 hilt. The French double edge blades actually had more going for them. The choice more in line with economics in production. Since you have it all figured out, my thoughts are probably a waste of time. Cheers GC I don't know whats acu my 1840 nco sword is so light, none of the listings of smallsword I can find on the net weigh so little, but they might be way off. If anything I would call them identical, but thicker. I don't know, I've never had a smallsword, but a fencing foil is certainly lighter, but a smallsword is certainly much heavier than a foil. Maybe my 1840 nco sword is not historically accurate, and that's why it is so thin and light. But,, it's really light. I don't have any swords like that, except for toy machetes from budk. no one is intent on grabbing the blade, but the first thing you will do when you can, is grab it if you think you can. This is just a fantasy, of course, I've never been to battle, but if you don't train specifically not to grab it, you will try to grab whatever it is they are holding if they are going to try to hit you with it. So,,, if they have a bayonet and you can grab it, you are going to grab it and try to hold it to the side while you stick them with the sword. This will be rare, but there are a lot of imaginable situations where when they have the thing, you can't get them proper but can get their thing, you will try to get their thing. In battles through time, I don't think you can argue no one ever tried to disable someone by grabbing their weapon. I can't make arguments about how many times its' come up,,, but I CAN argue that you will even be specifically trained NOT TO grab the bayonet, because people are so likely to do it. The specific training I'VE encountered was in re-enactment camps, and they say "don't grab the bayonet, because they can still stab you with it, and the only thing you can do is pull it. This will usually not work because they will have two hands on it, you will have one, and they will be able to stab you while you are holding it". ,,, so,, people grab the thing. They do it first, before training, and often enough to warrant actual historical training against it. And, I won't put up a source, you sound experienced enough to find one, but one of the uses of sharpening the whole blade,,,, is so that if someone tries to grab it, they will be easily cut. Another thing about cutting, not all cuts are huge strikes, just the best ones are. There are a lot of situations where a little discomfort for the opponent is all you need to accomplish your goal. Just like helmets don't stop bullets, not all uses of the blade are because they kill. If they don't want to get close, that's often good enough to buy some time, or keep a more ideal position. They will be less inclined to wrestle with the blade between you, for example. that's true. I've always said I have it all figured out. But I'm certainly not alone at making assumptions about what someone thinks, based on some imaginary tone they think I have when they read words which might be interpreted in a multitude of ways. My preference is to always assume they think they're better than everyone, and is posting because they would rather skip the conversation and get right to the insults. Or maybe forums are so that people can not care so much about how many ways someone might interpret their words, because they're just casually looking for more information and ideas they may not have considered.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2020 5:09:18 GMT
ACW American Civil War "none of the listings of smallsword I can find on the net weigh so little" Learn about them. A period smallsword I adopted recently weighs about 14 ozs. The Windlass is not so out of line from the original swords but your perception and what you are seeing about small sword weights is just way off base. "This is just a fantasy, of course," I suppose. "I can't make arguments about how many times its' come up" So.....don't "Or maybe forums are so that people can not care so much about how many ways someone might interpret their words, because they're just casually looking for more information and ideas they may not have considered." If you are looking for information, there is plenty to find here and it's not so much interpreting another's words but starting with the fundamentals. Simple information. Such as few smallswords weighed more than a pound and a half and many closer to a pound and a few ounces. KOA has the Windlass m1840 at 1 lb 12.6 oz 14 oz Of course, some reproductions do weigh more than originals. A spadroon with a very broad blade may weigh a little more. This one (iirc) is 1 lb 14 oz. Part of the reason the 1840 will feel light is that the metal hilt puts most of the weight in your hand. Coming from heavier swords, of course it feels light. If we want to get right to insults, spend some time actually studying a form of sword, say smallswords or spadroons, before ushering in the fantastical. Folk will think better of you. I'm not looking to tear you down but I am offering some facts, you may well simply discard. Cheers GC
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2020 5:49:00 GMT
My 1840s An 1864 Ames and a short US Marines musician boy's sword from Roby. Both ACW swords My late 19th century German made musician sword with a needly point. The Windlass and other reproduction spadroons do have a back edge, where the Ames Windlass emulates, did not. The fuller on the regulation nco sword went right to the point. The short Roby however has a short fuller and more epee like (for thrusting). The late German blade above also, a short fuller (shorter that the Windlass). Those kind of underline why some blades are better suited to thrusting. I usually defend the m1840 as a viable sword but it was less the best of cut&thrust of any of the other spadroons. What do I know? I own many of them. I have studied them. Are they fun in the back yard? No doubt. Cheers GC
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Post by tsmspace on Aug 10, 2020 7:02:03 GMT
ACW American Civil War "none of the listings of smallsword I can find on the net weigh so little" Learn about them. A period smallsword I adopted recently weighs about 14 ozs. The Windlass is not so out of line from the original swords but your perception and what you are seeing about small sword weights is just way off base. "This is just a fantasy, of course," I suppose. "I can't make arguments about how many times its' come up" So.....don't "Or maybe forums are so that people can not care so much about how many ways someone might interpret their words, because they're just casually looking for more information and ideas they may not have considered." If you are looking for information, there is plenty to find here and it's not so much interpreting another's words but starting with the fundamentals. Simple information. Such as few smallswords weighed more than a pound and a half and many closer to a pound and a few ounces. KOA has the Windlass m1840 at 1 lb 12.6 oz 14 oz Of course, some reproductions do weigh more than originals. A spadroon with a very broad blade may weigh a little more. This one (iirc) is 1 lb 14 oz. Part of the reason the 1840 will feel light is that the metal hilt puts most of the weight in your hand. Coming from heavier swords, of course it feels light. If we want to get right to insults, spend some time actually studying a form of sword, say smallswords or spadroons, before ushering in the fantastical. Folk will think better of you. I'm not looking to tear you down but I am offering some facts, you may well simply discard. Cheers GC so if I study fencing I will know more about if someone might grab at a limp blade. (like, I'm not looking at it because I"m looking at something else). In this presented case, the person will see the sword, see if it is sharp or dull, and make the decision to grab it or not. I don't see how studying foil fencing is going to help me talk about that reason to have a sharp blade all the way to the hilt.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2020 13:45:57 GMT
"In this presented case, the person will see the sword, see if it is sharp or dull, and make the decision to grab it or not." Nonsense. Most "in battle" will assume it to be sharp. None will wait for that determination and ask to handle the opponent's sword before defending a blow. "I don't see how studying foil fencing is going to help me talk about that reason to have a sharp blade all the way to the hilt." Foil fencing has little to do with spadroon, or even rapier technique. Epee play emulated the smallsword techniques, Few swords in period were sharp all the way to the hilt. To end with the first "so if I study fencing I will know more about if someone might grab at a limp blade." Somehow I have my doubts but start with these lists www.fioredeiliberi.org/phpBB3/viewforum.php?f=25Or everything here www.thearma.org/Or narrow your scope to a single type of sword and century. Sure, there are generalities and common sense but don't expect home grown appreciations to be universal truths. True, we are not re-inventing the basic principles of a wheel. Cheers GC
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Post by pgandy on Aug 10, 2020 16:35:48 GMT
I don't know whats acu my 1840 nco sword is so light, none of the listings of smallsword I can find on the net weigh so little, ACU [ACW] has been answered. I find Windlass’ M1840 NCO to be on the heavy side, at least statistically speaking, as most repros are. Mine weighs 822 g, KoA lists them at 811 g, MRL does not state. Uhlan has several spadroons in his collection including the M1840 NCO and Musicians Sword, the weight range is 518-638 g. This is all that I have time for. sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/61228/8-spadroons
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Post by pgandy on Aug 10, 2020 17:10:01 GMT
Thanks for the photos. I found the last one of most interest. All that I had seen previously were for military or individual use. I had never considered running the wheel parallel to the long axis, only across.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2020 17:18:09 GMT
As also in the middle photo. If you watch modern makers "shooting a blade" they are grinding on belts in just that fashion. Otherwise, in sweeping runs across the whole blade. Not so unlike draw filing.
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