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Post by hotspur on Aug 14, 2008 6:16:37 GMT
That wasn't my point at all Paul.
Cheers
Hotspur; in fact, it had nothing to do with his sword imports
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2008 6:57:15 GMT
Well for me, the science and analysis is what really is keeping me interested talking with steve. I find using casting to be NOTHING wrong. It's not a BAD thing. I mean albions do it for crying out loud. Using aluminum alloy to me isn't bad either. Now zinc alloy...it starts to get iffy...but the ZA 27 alloy ain't bad (which currently is my best guess with the density steve provided). Now I don't like being lied to...but honestly I'm having too much fun with the science to care ATM. I'm sure I'll get mad about it later. But right now, I'm having my science geek fun . But yes, I don't want to see DSA driven away because of anything I do. The video is a GREAT idea and I am looking very much foward to it...despite the fact that I am a DSA detractant for sword collectors. I'm all for them for theatrical troupes however. And I told this to paul, but I don't think he is misrepresenting what a DSA sword is. They are uber tough, a bit bulky and a bit unrefined...and not for everyone. Buy hey an Albion isn't for everyone either. And if Eyal wants to share further about the mystery metal for me to investigate, I'm ALL for that too...I love this stuff . And I have a lot of my refernces still...use to be a chemical eng major before I realized you need sleep to live...or stay sane.... Oh yeah steve, found out about the desity of zinc. Because it is so reactive, it does give their desity as 7.140g/ml but with a notation that it is for oxidized zinc and that there will be variance as zinc has 4 states of oxidation...one of which is reactive in water.... So basically getting a proper g/ml static for pure zinc is rather impossible...but that figure should work for any real work application of zinc you might need (after all how often do we work with stuff in a vacume). Yeah I'm a geek.
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Post by Darksword Armory on Aug 14, 2008 9:41:17 GMT
By Krupp steel we are referring to CK 55, obviously. Similarly to spring steels, you will get a similar “look” to aluminum when polished or unpolished, going from darkish grey to a very bright or shiny gloss when polished. With the exception of Titanium, Aluminum is the lightest alloy available. As a simple “test”, remove the pommel and guard. Weigh them. It’s certainly not aluminum. We always stated that our fittings are made with Krupp steel. Prior to 2006, we used 1050. If there is any doubt over the manufacturing process of any piece, or any question whatsoever, simply ask. Personally, I don’t think that attacking a particular maker in a forum is the ideal or honest way of dealing with the situation. Try having an open communication with the maker and be outright about your concerns…. The funny thing about asking is that you’ll always get a response. Posting your question on one of the thousands of threads on a forum in the hopes of being noticed is certainly not the way to go.
The “glue” you are making reference to on the hilt is Epoxy, a practice used among many high end sword makers, i.e., Albion, and so forth. I can’t remember the last time Albion was attached for using this practice. Interesting…
We have always been very open about our products. As stated from the outset the blades are made of 1060 High Carbon Steel and Tempered to a Rockwell of 53. All our blades are oil hardened. The metallurgical content of our blades is: C: 0.65% - 0.75% Mn: 0.30% Cr: 0.60% - 1.20% Ni: 1.25% - 2.00% Mo: 0.35% Si: 0.50% Second issue: We no longer have an apprenticeship program nor is the program advertized on our site. You can refer the the SBG interview for further details concerning this program.
Third Issue: We have been importing decorative swords and Celtic pouches since 1990. Depending on the product, these range in quality and come from China, India and Pakistan. These can be found in our eBay store. We generally separate our hand forged products (i.e., our website) from general imported products (found in our eBay store). These decorate swords range from 30 to 60$. This is nothing new, nor does it display any form of dishonesty. Honestly, I personally don’t understand why we have to justify the reasons we import decorative items like the Stainless lord of the rings swords. The answer is simple; there is a demand for such items. One has no bearing on the other.
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Post by hotspur on Aug 14, 2008 10:18:21 GMT
Hello Eyal, You wrote The following is copied from the bladesmiths section of the Darksword Amory pages just moments ago. DARKSWORD ARMORY was founded by Eyal Azerad, whose lifelong dedication to the study of Medieval and Renaissance sword-making resulted in the creation of the business in 1996. Through decades of scholarly research, its founder was able to provide battle ready medieval swords able to withstand the rigors of actual combat, while remaining true to the size, weight and dimensions of the originals. Each replica is researched through examples found in Museums, private collections and other historical sources. The Darksword Armory's team is composed of six individuals, all specialized in the field of medieval swords and armor reproduction. Our apprenticeship program is presently composed of four individuals.www.darksword-armory.com/bladesmiths.htmlIt has been some months since Paul did his interview with you and published it on his site. I did acknowledge it might have been a lapse in site upkeeping but found it odd that SBG videos and information had been added to the same page, yet that text remains at the time I write this post. I am now unclear as to how you can say you don't advertise something on your site, if it is still there after you have made the statement. I want to reiterate that I am not questioning your business acumen but it seems you left what could be considered salable information out of your interview with Paul. Kudos for providing the market with product so long before Darksword even existed. I think it would have added to your credential, not subtracted from it. I understand you are involved in a new jewelry venture as well. At least they credit and thank you for your help on their webpage. Again, credit where it is due for an accomplished businessman. Some steel questions. What you list as the make-up of 1060 was called into error in yet another thread here at SBG as iinaccurate for that steel. A random check on a search engine brings me these specifications. C 0.55-0.65 Mn 0.60-0.90 P 0.04 (max) S 0.05 (max) There seems to be a considerable elemental difference. Would you care to explain why those differences would be incosequential, or somehow really what 1060 steel normally is made up of? Im no metallurgist but I could make some guesses. CK55 is nothing more than Krupp's 1055, the C for carbon, the K for Krupp. I don't know if the reviewer tried a magnet on it but it should stick, heat treated or not. that might convince all. I guess the bigger question is why use an expensive steel shipped from Europe. Maybe you got a deal on it. Who am I to say. Still, a little puzzling for the average guy on the street to grasp. Cheers Hotspur; the video project sounds exciting. how about a sneak peak via a couple of simple pictures?
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Post by hotspur on Aug 14, 2008 11:08:57 GMT
No wonder it looked familiar. Carbon 0.65 - 0.75 Chromium 0.6 - 1.2 Manganese 0.25 - 0.8 Molybdenum 0.5 max Nickel 1.25 - 2 Phosphorus 0.03 max Silicon 0.5 max Sulphur 0.03 max ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ C: 0.65% - 0.75% Mn: 0.30% Cr: 0.60% - 1.20% Ni: 1.25% - 2.00% Mo: 0.35% Si: 0.50% Strikingly similar to another tool steel's specifications. The trace elements listed can't account for much. Neither tally up to what I read about 1060 but maybe some data is scrambled on the suppliers end. Brendan, Sam, guesses what the top steel specs are for? Cheers Hotspur; good blade steel, if that is what it really is
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Post by Darksword Armory on Aug 14, 2008 11:55:15 GMT
Hotspur,
You are right. I haven't noticed that :
“Armory's team is composed of six individuals, all specialized in the field of medieval swords and armor reproduction. Our apprenticeship program is presently composed of four individuals”
was still on the web page. We will update the page. The apprenticeship program was terminated years ago...I am not quite sure how you have linked our web page not being updated with dishonesty. We simply do not have time to review everything when we are dealing in various projects. The apprentice swords as explained in the SBG interview were being sold for under 100$, clearly not the same quality as our DSA line and clearly no longer on the market.
In regards to the metallurgical content, I highly suggest you read “Pattern-Welded Blade: Artistry In Iron” by Jim Hrisoulas. It might expend your knowledge.
"Kudos for providing the market with product so long before Darksword even existed."....quite presumptuous of you to think you know more about my company than I. Quite arrogant actually. As far as this thread goes, I am done with it. DSA has been very transparent in everything we have done from the start and I will not tolerate any form of personal attack against my company or staff. Importing decorative products shouldn’t come as a surprised, especially since DSA started out by selling Marto and other imported decorative swords, again, as explained in the SBG interview. These products however are quite different from our line.
“I understand you are involved in a new jewelry venture as well. At least they credit and thank you for your help on their webpage. Again, credit where it is due for an accomplished businessman.”….thanks for your sarcasm once again…Kheturah jewelry was created by a dear friend of mine 6 or 7 years ago. I helped her with her site, establishing contacts, as well as research and development issues of historical jewelry. Other than that, I also created a fitness magazine two years ago and have saved various companies from bankruptcy by analyzing their production line, cost and profit ratios. Other than that, I have a bachelors degree in Sociology, A bachelors in history and a Master’s in Criminology. I’m also married. Not that I mind sharing my personal life with people when asked appropriately, but I don’t see how this is in any way relevant to being a sold dealer.
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Post by hotspur on Aug 14, 2008 14:05:18 GMT
Hello Eyal,
I certainly did not write my posts as sarcasm and am sorry you have taken them as such. I have simply asked about some inconsitencies and you have been good enough to answer some of them. I did not present the website information to make anyone out a liar, simply stating fact. Further, congratulating you as a businessman should not be taken as anything but that. Congratulations. As I did indeed state applauding Paul's efforts, yet he reads that as insult as well.
Were I not very familiar with the way internet conversations go, I would act hurt myself but would suggest you read no motive but curiousity into anything I have posted here. I know Jim's work, in passing. I am also quite capable of reading steel charts.
I know I have spent minimal time in researching you, as the head of businesses, I would never venture to speculate what isn't readily available to any. What I implied was that you sell yourself a bit short in your interview with Paul. It is though research I would undertake to better understand anyone I might be doing business with. As mentioned in my first post, full disclosure would likely sell as much, or more product.
Take compliment as insult if you wish but it was not intended as such. I will refrain from assisting or questioning your cause further.
Cheers
Hotspur; good luck in all things
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Post by enkidu on Aug 14, 2008 14:25:55 GMT
I rarely post but i read almost everything, and this time i have to voice my opinion. If I was a manufacturer i would never post on this forum. Its great that they do answer some questions and issues directly on a forum, and somewhat unusual for any kind of business to do it in such an open public way. The manufacturers show great respect to their customers ( potential or even not ) by showing up here, i think that they should at least deserve such respect from us. Which isnt the case here, if you want to play the know-it-all do it it privacy, not in a big public show-off, it will only ternish the image both people involved. Its not the first time i see this here ( and other sword-related forums ), and i find it a bit sad.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2008 18:24:32 GMT
I am sorry that this thread has taken a hostile tone. That was not my Intention at all. I wanted to post a fair and objective review. I came across some points that I thought would make for interesting discussion and posted them.
For the record I hope that the miscommunication and misinformation contained in this thread is accidental. It is on my part. I do not believe that there is ANYTHING wrong with the construction of this sword. My questions and comments where not intended to be attacking or hostile. Some of my posts were written while i was distressed and for that I hope you will accept my apology. Lastly I may still purchase Items from Darksword in the future.
Acknowledging that Internet communication is often difficult, I will not post on this topic again.
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Post by Darksword Armory on Aug 14, 2008 19:17:56 GMT
Thank you Enkidu and Steve for the kind words. I certainly do appreciate that. As stated, you have done a commendable job with the review. It’s unfortunate that the “cast aluminum” issue has degraded into a downward spiral. With the responses, it seemed like we were being “judged” and “condemned” prior to even replying to the thread. I do however thank you and commend you for having the generosity to step forward and mending the situation with your kind words.
Thank you,
Eyal DSA
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Post by oos3thoo on Aug 14, 2008 22:59:29 GMT
I have one question... Why is there a nut epoxied in the pommel? Wouldn't it be better to just thread the pommel?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2008 23:06:32 GMT
Umm don't take this the wrong way Eyal...but that metal on the anduril is not ck55. We have enough science to back that up as ck55 should be magnetic...and much more dense then the given metal...nor should it tarnish and polish like aluminum (considering that CK55 IS a stainless steel...but it's a really good one...I love my old del tin made from this stuff ). I think you should check with whoever sold you that metal because the science says it's not. I'll talk with steve in PM to better determine what it actually is. I know you guys are very busy (with the video and all...can't wait to see it BTW )...but I think it might be something that warrants looking into on your end if you have the time to spare. Best of luck in all your endeavors Eyal. We may butt heads a lot but I still wish you success. The more options we have the better after all . And it is very nice of you to pop in the forums to say hi and answer all the questions.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2008 23:11:52 GMT
I have one question... Why is there a nut epoxied in the pommel? Wouldn't it be better to just thread the pommel? Well considering how soft the pommel was on the sword...no. The threading would just get ruined in an instant. And it's not a bad way to do thing anyways as if the nut strips, it's pretty easy to fix compared to say if the pommel itself was threaded. I honestly didn't see why the whole epoxy thing was viewed as a bad design when it really isn't. It's a matter of preference maybe...but definately not a design flaw.
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Post by hotspur on Aug 14, 2008 23:49:39 GMT
No, it is not. It is the European equivilant of 1055.
Cheers
Hotspur; a pretty easy lookup, actually
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2008 0:05:32 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2008 0:33:58 GMT
Okay that odd because I could have sworn krupp 55 was stainless...or at least rust resistant. And I polish up my del tin about once every 3 months with no rust issues while my other swords if I leave alone for 2 weeks I'll see rust spots. I live in a high humidity, high salt area. Hey it's like I live near an ocean or something hehe.
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Post by hotspur on Aug 15, 2008 2:30:37 GMT
How old is your Del Tin? He has been using steel with a touch of chromium since the mid 1990s. Bjorn's interview/article goes back to the summer of 1998. It is posted/linked at various pages, I don't know if Paul has it here somewhere. bjorn.foxtail.nu/interview.htmFulvio changed blade steels shortly after the break with Museum Replicas (same circumstances as Windlass getting more involved and then buying Atlanta Cutlery/MRL on paper). Here is my MRL mounted Del Tin blade from around 1990. I believe it was in the old MRL catalogs as the Danish War Sword. Actually, a very handy single hand sword that I like a lot. About forty inches overall and just less than two pounds ten ounces. If your sword is less than a dozen years old, chances are it is of the later chrome vanadium alloy steel 50CrV4. My 5157 is such a blade, as it is from a 2002 order delivered in 2003. It is tough to get good pictures of the difference but the CK55 is a little different in appearance (really more a matter of polish level n mine). The older blade does oxidize a little easier than the later. Anyway, all the old classic information about Fulvio. He did make an appearance on the boards as recently as 2003ish. Sorry Steven for further derailment. We now have three or four topics going on. Cheers Hotspur; yes, I'm an old fart
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2008 3:32:41 GMT
Mine is from 1995 or 96...and it was listed as krupp 55 steel...but dang it, now I'm not so sure anymore. If it's CrV steel, it would explain why it doesn't oxidize nearly remote as quickly as any of my other swords.
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Post by hotspur on Aug 15, 2008 3:50:15 GMT
There is a quite old Hank Reinhardt interview over at The ARMA site somewhere. I've not read it in years and would be lying if I said I remembered all the details. Hank was the voice of MRL before before Windlass became the parent company of AC and MRL. The article mentions the year, iirc it was the summer of 1995. I do not remember at all if he mentions the specifics of the Del Tin seperation but it had some to do with steel choices and Windlass control. I simply don't remember the particulars. Going by Bjorn's interview, the change on Fulvio's end would have been by the summer of 1996. the ARMA article should be pretty much front and center on their home page.
Cheers
Hotspur; not to dwell too much in the past though, as these are the good old days
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2008 4:03:46 GMT
So perfect...I'm the transition period with no clear cut answers...just my luck . Oh well, thanks for the info anyways .
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