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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2008 4:32:24 GMT
Has anyone bought _armour_ from them?
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Post by septofclansinclair on Aug 13, 2008 16:01:11 GMT
I think we need Eyal to come and weigh in and answer any questions people may have, because right now it's just been alot of speculation (although the evidence for aluminum fittings is there). Before we start assuming any sort of maniacal deviousness on their part to deceive us, maybe we should try and get some more information. That video would be a really good idea, from the looks of it.
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Post by Darksword Armory on Aug 13, 2008 19:19:17 GMT
Hi Steve,
The guard and pommel on that model is made of Krupp steel. We do not use aluminum or stainless steel in our production. If they were made of aluminum they would simply snap right off. I apologize for not mentioning it on my response yesterday. I simply didn’t think of it after reading your review, which I quite enjoyed. I do not understand why you felt “annoyed” by our response, We simply commended you on an excellent review but voiced our concerned over the mention of “aluminum casting” as we do not use aluminum, let alone a casting process. Simple as that. In regards to the discussion of weigh, that has been answered earlier today. We were not avoiding the question, we only stumbled on the thread yesterday prior to closing shop. The question has been addressed on the thread. We do not avoid questions but, with an average of 130 emails a day, it’s understandable that we cannot monitor the sites every day, especially if one considers the magnitude of the forum (different sections, forums, thread categories, post titles, subject….SBG is huge!). That being said however, we are always here for our fans, supporters, and anyone interested in our swords or swords in general. We love talking with people about various makers, designs, combat groups and so forth. That one of the perks of the trade. If you feel like a query has not been answered, please, don’t hesitate to contact us, either by email or by phone (450-314-1134). We reply to all our emails twice a day.
In any event, I hope this helps. We will be producing a video in the next few months.
Thanks,
Eyal, DSA
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2008 20:16:06 GMT
Okay I have an old del tin Krupp 55 steel sword. It should not act like anything Steve wrote. It shouldn't polish like that...tarnish like that or soft like that. Unless your referring to using Krupp steel as in just any random steel from the Tyssen Krupp steelworks company...in which case, the only "steel" that would act like that is one that is really high in chromium as mentioned...which is definitely stainless...and once again at that point, I think I'd rather have aluminum. I mean even assuming it's steel...if it ACTS like aluminum, why not use aluminum and save the weight?!? I mean at the end of the day, thats what it boils down to isn't it? As for aluminum snapping...well considering how much higher the tensile strength of aluminum is compared to GOOD steel(which these obviously aren't), I don't see it. What steel that bad can do, aluminum can do better.
And it's not like Steve can't do a simple water displacement test to find the molecular weight and compare that to the molecular weight of Krupp steel...or high chromium steel...or aluminum. Which I think he should as I'm really curious now.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2008 20:44:40 GMT
I've been re-inspecting this sword since this thread posted. I do agree the guard and pommel do resemble the LOOK of aluminum, but I don't think it has the feel or the weight of aluminum; and definitely doesn't look like any stainless steel that I've ever seen. Of course, I'm not an expert in metallurgy, either. I would like to thank Eyal for his postings and making himself available for questions to us here at the SBG. +1 to you Eyal!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2008 22:05:40 GMT
Well if you can give a weight and how much water it displaces, I can calculate what it's made of . edit, the cross is better then the pommel as the pommel as glue and steel in it which will mess up the figures somewhat.
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Post by oos3thoo on Aug 13, 2008 22:25:04 GMT
I just lost my faith in Darksword... Glue holdong the pommel to the nut... It seems more like an awesome project blade, or a good wallhanger. I would prefer the Ranger....
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2008 22:31:06 GMT
I did a real quick calculation for density on the pommel.
Anduril pommel=7.34g/ml
AL=2.70g/ml (aluminum) Fe=7.87g/ml (iron) Zn=7.13g/ml (zinc)
So it is definitely not Aluminum.
My wife is out getting me a more precise volumetric measuring device. So I will have more accurate results shortly. Before anybody accuses me of not being able to do basic physical properties testing. I will make a video this evening. and post it tomorrow afternoon.
Seth to be very clear, there is 1 1/8" of threaded tang that extends into the pommel. The threads are cut the full depth of the hole. The pommel was very tight originally. It is possible that when it was originally assembled some glue of some kind got between the nut and pommel and cured after assembly. I did find some hardened glue on the tang where the grip sits. you can see it in the bare blade photos. If this is the case then the only difference from standard Darksword construction would be the lack of a washer.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2008 22:43:54 GMT
I will check the cross. thanks CN. trying to be as accurate as possible
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2008 23:02:22 GMT
Thanks steve. Although I assume that figure is for zinc alloy and not pure zinc? Pure zinc should be denser then iron. In anycase, aluminum is definately out at that density.
But once again...why not?!? I mean the things acts like aluminum...at triple the mass....
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2008 0:00:28 GMT
I checked a second site for zinc but I am finding the same number. zinc is higher on the periodic table so I think (scratched head in a fuzzy manner)it should be denser? Any way.... What do you suppose "Krupp Steel" is? Thats like saying Anderson Aluminum. Pretty meaningless/evasive. The guard is 479g & 78ml which gives us 6.1410g/ml. Thats enough lower than Iron that you would have to be a superhero to stretch that far and not get hurt. I am going to retest the pommel. Edit: Pommel comes in at 595g & 85ml which gives us 7g/ml. Now isn't that Interesting? So now check this out...the nut that is glued in the pommel is siting in a hole .5" wide & .5"deep mostly filled with...lets call it JB Weld. the threads continue the full depth of the hole but they are not clean. as you can see in the photo there is a void next to the nut that extends below the thickness of the nut. thats how i can tell the dimensions of the hole. if you were to take out the "JB Weld It would look like any other darksword pommel, nut to hold the grip and guard, then the pommel screws on without tension from the grip. good design in that normal grip stress is not transferred to the pommel. so whats with the glue? and Oh yeah wouldn't you expect that volume of glue to make the overall pommel LESS dense. and didn't he say directly that these parts are Krupp steel, that they are the same metal?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2008 0:33:38 GMT
Krupp steel is a type of stainless steel developed by a German a century ago that isn't chromium based. So it does not exhibit the downfall of those stainless steel when use in swords. Of course any steel made by the Krupp corporation is also Krupp steel. Anyways, I have no idea how one would measure the weight of pure zinc as it would have to be done in a vacuum or it'd turn into a hunk of various oxides...so I'm guessing it's alloys and not pure zinc. Or they used oxidized zinc...which would be less dense...but technically isn't pure zinc . Anyways chemistry 101 aside, that is NOT steel. Chromium is 7.14g/ml so it's not even a iron chrome alloy. Most zinc alloy I'm finding seems to have a density of 6.6-6.8 range. My best guess would be that it's a zinc alloy with a rather high aluminum content (either 12 or 27%). Not that it really matters what the metal is, it acts like aluminum at tons extra weight...so all in all, it's just a worse option then aluminum .
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2008 0:42:47 GMT
The part I'm having a problem with is they dont seem to be being straight with us. I feel like I am gettig Info from a slimy corporate sales type.
Any of you guys in sales only take offense if you are slimy. ;D
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2008 0:49:32 GMT
Well, the pommel being more dense makes sense. The nut I'm sure is steel...and if they used JB weld, it's pretty much choke full of iron shavings .
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2008 0:53:41 GMT
the Sword as a whole needs the weight in the pommel to balance properly, and the lighter weight guard reduces the overall weight.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2008 1:10:25 GMT
Yea there is the balance issue...but making the blade distal taper would fix that...or a different profile...since I think the movie one tapered more then the DSA one does.
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Post by Brendan Olszowy on Aug 14, 2008 1:52:57 GMT
Okay I have an old del tin Krupp 55 steel sword. It should not act like anything Steve wrote. It shouldn't polish like that...tarnish like that or soft like that. I can quote Eyal as insisting to me that the parts were in fact Krupp 55 stainless steel - they aren't - more likely zinc. I protested that at least three times. He left it by saying all their steel comes from Admiral and he would have to enquire that they didn't give him the wrong steel. Again how the oslo parts can be made without casting I'd like to know.
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admin
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Post by admin on Aug 14, 2008 2:12:57 GMT
First off, great review there Steve - and indeed +1 for the shirtless pic. Plus 30 review points for writing a fair, balanced and objective review. This particular sword is out of stock at the moment, and cannot be backordered at the SBG Sword Store until the next run is completed - but I am hoping that perhaps the next run will be a tad lighter or more predictable in weight. It is rather embarrasing for the official specs of the sword and the measured weight to be so out of whack...
As to the use of epoxy/JB weld - this is a fairly recent development, but I am not sure why everyone is so surprised. Gen 2 does it. Albion epoxies the handles of their swords to the tang and no one complains about that... Indeed, if you are going to be using a sword hard, there is nothing more frustrating than having to continually tighten it up manually - many Atrim owners use loctite or the like to stop it from happening too, so it's not like the concept is totally foreign... The construction of the fittings is indeed a bit of a mystery. I was under the impression that, like Albion, they were cast metal - but only Eyal can shed light on this subject. Calling them 'slimy' is really not a good way to encourage anyone to open up about it... Bear in mind also that the kind of dialog we have now between production sword makers and the sword buying community is relatively new, but it can seriously backfire on manufacturers. Cheness got slammed on SFI after opening up about how their tsuka were attached (despite the fact that 99% of other sub US$300 sword makers do the same thing or worse!), Clyde from Gen 2 had a near meltdown here and was attacked in a similar manner over a year ago now and Hanwei's Bpogue was also slammed in some words that were very spiteful here a couple of months ago (I forget the exact thread, but it was along the lines of them being greedy corporate fat cats or something, which if you knew the inside story, you'd know was far from the truth. We sometimes forget, the sword business is a micro-industry in a very narrow niche and NO-ONE is really making huge amounts of money - unless they carter to the movie swords and cheap Anime replica crowd that is). Anyway, let's try to keep an open dialog and help DSA and other manufacturers improve their products rather than just 'bash' them in a negative way. Let's use constructive rather than destructive criticism, especially if the manufacturer is listening and shows a willingness to change things to improve their product. DSA for one has some very good products - not perfect perhaps - but they are willing to listen and improve if we are willing to be civil... Hopefully Eyal will chime in here with some more information on how the different components are constructed. But from the tone this thread has taken up until now, I wouldn't blame him if he didn't for a while.... Thanks, - Paul
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Post by hotspur on Aug 14, 2008 4:07:50 GMT
Krupp CK55 is the steel Del Tin used to use for blade steel. The Arms Of krupp is an excellent title. Long out of print but widely indexed in libraries and not unknown at used booksellers.
Many do not use locking compound on ATrims, as we were aware of proper care and feeding from discussions long ago.
Not all misinformation and half truths are coming from Eyal.
I can applaud a venue set up by a businessman to endorse other businesses but if the grand experiment is meant to include market participation along with the market research and profits, it shouldn't be suprising that there are going to be these types of inquisitions. While we're there, the conflicting information between your interview with Eyal and the apprentice program related on the Darksword page (that carries a video and text relating SBG). Lazy web maintenance? They were right there when they added text. Eyal is listed in trade guides back to at least 1993. Not that there is anything wrong with that.
Cheness slammed for the tsukas? That's a riot Paul. He was questioned about a lot more than that from the get go. You might also mention that had he not been a participant at SFI, the whole 9260 trend might never have come to be, or at least not as quickly.
Sad to see this in the review section, as previously mentioned. Maybe some paring and assembly to a thread in the manufacturers section would be appropriate.
Cheers
Hotspur; rewritten twice, I hope it doesn't seem too terse
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admin
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Post by admin on Aug 14, 2008 5:55:42 GMT
Fair enough, but the point I am trying to make is that we should encourage manufacturers to post rather than make them feel that we are readying the fires and preparing the stakes... Yeah, that is a bit strange that they updated that page with the vids but missed updating about the apprenticeship program. Maybe they missed that part and added the vids quickly, I don't know (I've accidently done that kind of thing myself). I CAN honestly tell you, however, that I haven't misprepresented anything on my site and feel a bit insulted that you think that I have. For the number of hours I put into this business and the amount of money I make from it, that is especially painful actually. I have, and will always, put the interests of the greater community ahead of profits - and have always given back as much as I can here... All the swords I recommend are based on personal experience. Being production swords, some will vary in quality and not every piece that goes out will be amazing. But believe me, the association with DSA didn't happen overnight and it wasn't about 'making some quick bucks' or whatever. I tested the swords hard, and came away thinking 'great steel, excellent tempering, a little rough round the edges here and there, but definitely great value' - felt they were the underdog, talked a lot back and forth and it happened from there (it's all out in the open for everyone to see of course). As to the 'import conspiracy since 1993' I can't speak for Eyal, but he makes no secret that he imports some blades here: www.darksword-armory.com/imports.htmlCould he import the steel, leather, etc, too? Perhaps the hilt components are made overseas? Or does he have other unrelated import business interests? I guess that is his business really. But I find your suspision that he has the swords made off shore and then shipped in a little over the top based on that... My understanding is that they make custom pieces with a quick turn around time upon request, but forge the production swords 2-3 times a year, working around the clock - and when I have communicated with them during this busy time of year, the strain and hours worked to do this shows... And the fact that they are willing to video it to provide further insight is commendable. Or is it all part of a grand conspiracy? I haven't been to the forge first hand to see (no funds to do so, I wish - my trip to Japan was the first holiday I have had in 7 years, but I digress) - but I need some solid evidence that it is all a farce (if you have it, I'm willing to hear about it and would of course terminate the relationship with DSA immediately if it was shown that I was lied to!). As to Cheness, we are already pretty far of topic and the limitations of proboards currently does not allow me to split up a thread unfortunately. But just quickly, I was simply using this as an example of how, if you start bashing a manufacturer they don't stick around, stop listening to the forum in question, and just continue on their merry way - losing an opportunity for everyone to benefit. Forums have an unfortunate tendency to start what becomes a popular 'pile on' kind of effect, and once a few of the 'cooler kids' go on the warpath, it becomes a popular sport. If the manufacturers were more involved with the various forums and didn't feel that they would be ridiculed or attacked, then chances are the feedback loop would result in better and better products with every batch. Feel free to disagree, just wanted to state my case. Anyway, to get back on topic - I'd really like to know what the fittings are made from and how they are made. Because it's true that something there isn't adding up, so hopefully Eyal will shed some light on this subject for us.
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