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Post by Pino on Jul 18, 2020 0:21:17 GMT
Two swords here: the 1854 Heavy cavalry and its replacement the model 1854/82. A throwback to the Napoleonic An XIII sword, the 1854 with its 100cm blade was issued first to the two carabiniers regiments and then to the cavalerie de Réserve (cuirassiers). A year later it was the dragoons' turn to receive it but with shorter blades (97.5cm). Stamps : F. Schutz (controller 2nd class 02-1854 to 06-1872) G. Durousseau de Fayolle (director 09-1862 to 03-1873) Back of blade signature: Manuf Imple de Chatt Février 1864 - Caraber Mle 1854 In 1882, to keep up with new Army standards, the blades were shortened to 95cm for the cuirassiers and 92.5cm for the dragoons, the lower rings were removed so it could be worn on the saddle. Also because a new model sword was introduced in 1882 and was supposed to replace it, production of the 1854 was stopped in 1883. That same year 1883, the 1854 hilts no longer repaired, all worn or broken hilts were replaced by the surplus (and stillborn) model 1882. Swords that were modified to these new standards were thus termed Mle 1854 transformed (82). This 1854-82 has an unusual leather cover to the pommel; this is the second specimen I see with it and from Ondry's book it could be the result of a repair to be concealed but I don't discard it could be for field use like the scabbard cover was for. Stamps : F.L. Sprenger (controller 1st class 06-1879 to 06-1885) J.M. Brenier (controller 2nd class 09-1874 to 07-1889) J.P.J. Realon (director 05-1879 to 12-1883) Back of blade signature: Manufre d'Armes de Chatt unreadable month 1883 - Dragons Mle 1854
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2020 2:17:48 GMT
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Post by Pino on Jul 18, 2020 2:36:03 GMT
Hm, from your pics it seems to be a trooper sword you have there since officers had floral decorated branches. If there are markings on the hilt yet none on the back, it could be an NCO sword too.
I did think of the possibility the while hilt of the 1854/82 was covered in leather and lost it over time, so far it is the theory that holds the most because the hilt doesn't seem to have bad repair underneath to justify concealing it and the turn of the century started to flirt with the concept of camouflage which it does well when matched with the scabbard cover.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2020 3:00:52 GMT
Thanks, I was under the impression that a horn grip lended it to being an officers sword.
Either way, sound as the day it was made and with the 97.5 cm spearpoint blade.
Cheers GC
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Jul 19, 2020 8:03:08 GMT
Thank you very much Pino.
Looks like they used the new, smaller model, M1822/82 LC hilt on the poor 1854/83 Dragoon blade. l'Hoste doesn't even mention this aberration. At least, I could not find it. Wonder how many were made and more important, survived. Cannot be much, as I have never seen this strange combination in the market.
Cheers.
Edit: Found the hilt in l'hoste: page 405-826. From what I see there the hilt should sit atop of the 1882 cavalry blade. Length 92.5 cm.
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Post by randomnobody on Jul 19, 2020 19:46:12 GMT
I've been lusting after a '54 since my visit to Dave Kelly's place. Passed on a few really great deals because money just hasn't been right and currently have four or five bookmarked for when a distant, unknown, rich relative leaves me a large inheritance...
Thanks for sharing yours. Definitely curious about the leather. First impression was maybe it was fitted when the brass wire started coming loose? Seems okay through the seam, though...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2020 21:01:06 GMT
From Jean Binck's notes on the 1854 @ SFI
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Post by Pino on Jul 22, 2020 0:24:34 GMT
Strangely enough for a not so big production, the HC 1854 for Carabiniers and cuirassiers (see Edelweiss's pics above) is not a rare sword in today's market. It's just a very expensive piece however!
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Post by athelstanexeter on Oct 28, 2020 3:45:24 GMT
Apologies for resurrecting this thread, but I had only seen it today while doing some research for my own piece, a Mai 1882 Châtellerault-manufactured example. 1090 grams. 97cm blade (maybe 2 or 3 mm over but not 97.5cm). 14.5cm from top of guard to peen. 14cm PoB. Sorry for poor quality pics, but my phone is potato.
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Post by jimmythedonut on Nov 11, 2021 1:27:12 GMT
Sorry to resurrect this zombie thread but I had a brief question/contribution of my own. I recently picked up what I think is a similar one for a not-awful price of 400 american burger dollars. 91cm blade ~1kg weight, officers model. For the life of me I cannot make out what the spine of the sword says beyond Klingenthal or the stamps, which appear to be a B and a D. The guard has a small oval with 3 stars and 2 lines heading towards the blade. I am borderline mentally challenged for French stuff, I am checking here klingenthal.chez.com/marquages_coulaux.htm & klingenthal.chez.com/marquages_etat.htm and don't see much precise information, it's likely I simply don't get how to read the charts. If anyone has more information on this I'd appreciate it, blade is pitted but cleaned off pretty nicely. A bit too wobbly in my opinion for a thruster but also feels like it could do a not-awful percussive blow or slash either. Sort of a wimpier Swedish m1893 in that regard. Thanks!
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Post by jimmythedonut on Nov 11, 2021 5:03:49 GMT
Now that I look at other examples, this may be an 1816 blade that was re-used, though the end of the blade sees the fullers stop short of the end? Regardless, it may be that the stamps were once better with the dots around them but have been worn away either through time or an accursed bubba
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Nov 12, 2021 18:05:42 GMT
I think the spine signature says Klingenthal Coulaux et Cie. Look for this signature in the column at the right. That will give you a period when that signature was in use. To narrow the blade date down a bit more, or confirm the spine signature, that is what the D and B stamps are for. Would like to see better and more detailed pictures of those stamps please. Your D stamp has a crown? What does the B stamp look like? As for now the signature on the spine points to a 1850 to 1855 time frame and in the left column you see a D and a B stamp were in use during that period. D probably stands for Ducret. B could be Balaran: klingenthal.chez.com/marquages_etat.htm but I am not sure. The Coulaux page does not mention too many full names. Only Ducret. Cheers.
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Post by Pino on Nov 12, 2021 23:53:21 GMT
See the chart for the private purchase markings: the B and D are there along with the type of back signature Manufre de Klingenthal Coulaux et Cie, for the years 1855-1860; B could stand for Joseph A. Bisch (main controller 1844-1861) and the D for Leon Dubois (director in 1854, controller 1855-1861) The marking on the hilt is for Paris furbisher Etienne Leon (active since 1836, then his widow from 1845 to the 1860s). BTW you have the M1854 sword but the version for officers of the Line cavalry (dragoons, cuirassiers, carabiniers).
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2021 1:17:31 GMT
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Nov 14, 2021 17:17:21 GMT
Dang! I totally missed the private order part. Getting too old for this stuff.
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Post by jimmythedonut on Nov 14, 2021 20:10:38 GMT
Thanks for the help! I can generally read French, I can generally read Cursive, but French Cursive was making my brain melt out my ears.
That and looking endlessly at Bs and Ds that mostly appeared to be the same. The explanation really helped and I can have a better understanding of how that chart works now, yes it does appear to be a mid century blade on a mid-century hilt. A shame the tip is just this side of too flexible IMO, it feels like the cavalry version of a spadroon TBH, a perfectly acceptable weapon but probably not great. POB is enough you can easily make percussive cuts with it though.
There was a fair amount of dirt on the guard so I went ahead and cleaned/polished it up just to make it consistent. Blade is bright with lots of black pitting but otherwise fine. When I get better at my cleaning skills I might try and work on it a bit but those double narrow fullers requires more skill.
I'll post photos when I get home, it's a respectably nice looking and nice handling weapon even if it isn't the heavy shock thruster I was expecting. Thanks for all the help as always!
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Post by jimmythedonut on Nov 16, 2021 7:09:23 GMT
_ Here are the promised images, the first two photos are the seller photos. There was some dirt and debris I wanted to clean off. There's still what I think is brass pitting or some dark spots but everything is silky smooth now and clean. I will let it patina up again in time but I wanted to clean that off and it looked weird. Does anyone have advice for removing dark spots from brass or should I let that be? Personally I am content to maybe clean the scabbard a bit and call it a day.
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Post by jimmythedonut on Nov 16, 2021 7:11:24 GMT
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Post by jimmythedonut on Nov 16, 2021 7:15:03 GMT
Admittedly now that I look at them on a PC they are not great photos, the brass is probably too shiny and needs a better location to be photographed in, but still. For $400 I'd say I did pretty decent all things considered.
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Nov 16, 2021 10:37:54 GMT
Looks great to me! Personally I would let those little dark spots on the hilt be. If they are not removed easily this means you may have to try to sand them away, which means you have lots of polishing out of the sanding scars to do after. Not worth the hassle and to me the spots give this aura of ,,antique'' to the brass. Brass is easy to over clean. Blade looks good too. Nice and bright again. It shows its age but is clean now. Lots of rubbish and dirt got removed and that is the most important part. With a bit of Ren wax it may hold for another 100 years. As for the scabbard maybe you can have a look here and see how far you are willing to take it: sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/52806/antique-blades-pelliuss-cleaning-threadsMaybe try to find a balance with the blade. Clean but showing its age without it looking like you drove the thing off the dealer's lot like yesterday. All in all I'd say: Very nice sword in good condition for a super low price too. Excellent! The last M1854 I saw for sale about a week ago had a price tag of Euro 1000 and it was not much better than yours. So, there you go. Try to be careful with the wire. It is of this super finicky kind with that ultra fine wire cover. It tends to get brittle over time, so go easy! Cheers.
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