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Post by Zwilnik on Jul 11, 2020 4:13:01 GMT
You've seen it, there's a scene in every medieval period movie and TV show: some guy sitting down sharpening his sword with what looks like a rock. I understand sharpening stones, but what kind of rocks are they using? Did medieval swordsmen walk around with sharpening rocks in their satchels? I'm not being facetious, it just looks to me like they're running a rock down their blade. I'm almost positive that's not what I'm seeing -- so what kind of stone are they using?
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Post by Jordan Williams on Jul 11, 2020 6:36:08 GMT
I tried it with a machete and it sort of works... kinda. Of course sort of is multiplied by kind of so unless you want a party trick it's honestly just better to carry like a small falkniven stone.
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Post by pvsampson on Jul 11, 2020 6:50:58 GMT
Before synthetics,all sharpening was done with stones just different types from coarse to smooth.It would not surprise me at all if warriors carried a stone of some sort to put an edge on their weapon as needed. Dramatized moving pictures may show some dude with a large fist sized rock,but that is drama. Most likely they would have carried something very similar to a pocket stone that is carried today and maybe even a few like coarse,medium and fine.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Jul 11, 2020 13:48:04 GMT
Stones and I’d say even rocks have been used in the past. I’ve even seen a video of someone using concrete to prove their point. I saw a film probably made in the ‘40s if not before in Borneo of natives using a rock. It appeared to be a large rock that was suited for the job therefore had been used many times, sufficient to have worn a depression on the surface. I’ve used a cement sidewalk and even my cement patio to resurface a whetstone after wearing a valley in it. If cement will reshape a hard tool like that, that I use to cut away steel it surely will work on the steel itself. I know, cement is not stone, but I gave to illustrate a point.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Jul 11, 2020 14:26:20 GMT
I'm certain that people in olden times very quickly figured out which rocks and what shapes worked and which did not. For them it was literally a matter of survival. And remember it's not really the stone itself that does the sharpening, it's the fine mud slurry created with the water that does the work. The slurry is more abrasive than a dry rock.
You can do your own experiments and see for yourself what works and what doesn't.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Jul 11, 2020 18:57:04 GMT
A mud slurry will work however that would be more for polishing the course work of a stone. That would be something the smith would use while in the field the user would more likely use a stone I believe. I have learned after many wasted hours that the finer grits are best left to polishing after the courser stuff defines the each. As for a mud slurry, below is a video of me using such. The challenge was to make a blowpipe using only natural materials save a knife, cord, saw, and fire maker but no match or lighter. The actual slurry starts at 5:36, but a prelude to that starts at 3:16 with me making a tool for the slurry.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Jul 11, 2020 19:53:54 GMT
Good video. The best way to learn is to try something out for yourself. It makes it easier to understand how things were done long ago when you put your own hands to the task.
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Post by treeslicer on Jul 11, 2020 21:59:27 GMT
Speaking as a geologist, except for oddities like emery corundum and carbonado diamond (which are too rare to consider), all of the natural whetstones used historically derive their steel-cutting ability from silicate particles embedded in a softer matrix. This is why cement works as a sharpening stone, it contains quartz sand held in a calcareous matrix, making it a sort of artificial sandstone. While the better sharpening stones (such as Jnats, coticules. and Arkansas novaculite) are all metamorphic rocks (mostly slates) formed in areas where silicate containing sediments got baked and squashed by nearby molten rock or tectonic folding, merely adequate whetstones, like sandstones, are very widespread.
In some places, around the world, there's nothing unrealistic about a barbarian, who knew what he was looking for, being able to pick up a rock off the ground, and hone his blade with it. Also, as far as a Roman or whatever, having a whetstone in his pack or belt bag, many of the better sharpening stones have been recognized and traded around since ancient times. Some of my Jnats, for instance, rather than being cut and ground to shape, look like nondescript lumps of slate, one of which lives in my belt bag for SCA events.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Jul 12, 2020 0:19:03 GMT
I live in a volcanic area with several active ones. In fact I live at the base of one that is inactive, I hope. With such activity there is much pumice or pumicite that gets into everything and it is necessary to wash my targets before cutting least I dull my blades prematurely.
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Post by alexkjren on Jul 12, 2020 2:48:49 GMT
It wasn't my first choice but I once sharpened a fillet knife on the edge of a cement boat ramp. It was an ugly edge and scratched up the blade but it did the job and let me clean my catch.
There's also another option which is using a "strop" if I've spelled it correctly. I've never used one but have heard they work well if you know what you're doing. Since they're made of leather, I can easily see a soldier carrying one around as part of his kit.
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Post by pgandy on Jul 12, 2020 3:07:43 GMT
I use a leather strop regularly on my razor and remember when the were a main stay in barber shops. I even got a whipping with one. And I use a leather belt on my electric sander. I do impregnate them with jeweller’s rouge and before I had that, Metal Glo. They tend to realign the metal on the edge. They make a sharp blade sharper, if you will. But to take a dull blade to a leather strap in itself to make it sharp, forget it. That will take forever and a day.
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Post by Zwilnik on Jul 12, 2020 4:30:27 GMT
Wow, these are all fantastic answers, thank all of you!!!
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Post by Sir Thorfinn on Jul 13, 2020 15:01:36 GMT
Ok, so the ONLY thing I can add it a youtuber who has reprofiled high end kitchen knives with...a brick. Look for Burrfection.
So for basic stuff, it does not need to be complex.
And I have a favorite smooth, flat, river rock I like, just because.
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Post by mrbadexample on Jul 13, 2020 15:28:05 GMT
When I was in my early 20’s, I worked with a man who had served in Vietnam doing some sort of long distance recon (or so he claimed). He still had a very mint looking Randal dirk that I enjoyed the chance to handle. When I asked why it looked so good he said it was because he’d never used it. I followed up on that, and he said he felt better using a Kabar when he had to sharpen it on river rocks after losing his whet stone. No idea if it’s true, but that was the first id heard of it outside movies.
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harrybeck
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Post by harrybeck on Jul 13, 2020 16:24:23 GMT
I sometimes use the bottom of a ceramic cup. It works quite well.
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Post by RickDastardly on Jul 13, 2020 17:04:34 GMT
The top, ground edge of a car window works well too, for a light sharpening. Unglazed inside and bottom of an earthenware pot as well.
When I was a kid, I sharpened my knives on the kerbstone outside our house. It was smooth concrete and worked better in the rain. I've also used roof slate and slate pieces just found lying around. The slates worked best if flat pieces were ground against ech other to flatten them even more. I've never used random stones, but hard river stones should be quite serviceable in a pinch. Some split into half quite nicely, with flat breaks, which would give a more aggressive surface for ginding.
Eventually I appropriated a slightly broken fine/course carborundum stone from my engineer grandfather.
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Post by pellius on Jul 15, 2020 17:09:25 GMT
The only thing I can add is that it seems unlikely a swordsman would hold the sword freehand by the hilt and just run a stone down the edge repeatedly, Conan the Barbarian style. That would give quite the uneven edge, and would take forever.
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Post by Zwilnik on Jul 15, 2020 17:35:47 GMT
I guess the more I think about this topic, the more I think about dudes in jail who take a little piece of metal and just run it back and forth on the concrete until they have a shiv.
Is it shiv with a shank, or shank with a shiv?
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Post by ErikTheLed on Jul 16, 2020 1:15:46 GMT
I believe it's shank with a shiv.
What I would have to wonder is considering there was technology to mine, refine and forge steel into swords and other weapons, I'd sure think they'd have figured out the sharpening part and probably much like today you basically bought sharpening tools along with the cutting tool.
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Post by Zwilnik on Jul 16, 2020 16:33:22 GMT
I believe it's shank with a shiv. What I would have to wonder is considering there was technology to mine, refine and forge steel into swords and other weapons, I'd sure think they'd have figured out the sharpening part and probably much like today you basically bought sharpening tools along with the cutting tool. Yeah. True. Might be getting a little off topic but I was watching some Lockup videos on Youtube and there was a guy who was able to make a shiv out of a plastic cup. He even quenched it in the toilet to harden it. I was like, okay, yeah, if people in jail can do that, people would know how to sharpen their swords with stones.
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