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Post by MichaelRS on Mar 10, 2022 23:10:51 GMT
Really all of this begs the question; Why did the Japanese make their sword handles seemingly so complicated compared to, say, European swords?
I would say everybody else's swords, but I'm not aware of all the Asian styles so I don't know if such relative complexity is a common theme amongst them.
I mean we're talking about times in history where people really had to work hard for a living. It's not like they had to think of ways to kill boredom by coming up with relatively complex woven grips for sword handles.
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Post by paulmuaddib on Mar 10, 2022 23:42:33 GMT
Really all of this begs the question; Why did the Japanese make their sword handles seemingly so complicated compared to, say, European swords? I would say everybody else's swords, but I'm not aware of all the Asian styles so I don't know if such relative complexity is a common theme amongst them. I mean we're talking about times in history where people really had to work hard for a living. It's not like they had to think of ways to kill boredom by coming up with relatively complex woven grips for sword handles. Well a couple of things come to mind. They didn’t have a lot of leather. Virtually no cattle or other leather bearing animals around or at least not plentiful. They did have lots of silk though. You make do with what you have and be creative. And the Japanese were creative. And a very cultured and artistic society. Unlike (and I’m sure I’ll piss some people off here) European societies of the same time periods.
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Post by Drunk Merchant on Mar 11, 2022 0:21:02 GMT
I find that unlikely, they kept cattle and while eating them was taboo they were used to mass produce leather. In fact not only is leather one of the key components of their armor, but leather wrapping was standard with the katana from the sengoku www.nihonto.com/uchigatana-koshirae/ www.nihonto.com/a-brief-history-of-japanese-armor/And these are mass produced items mind you. More likely the reason they used silk for better fittings is that it’s a resilient fabric, gives some water resistance and gives good grip which might be important given cutting motions seem to have a kind of twist to them. As for leather? It’s far cheaper and far far quicker to prep, they just urushi it and it’s good to go. Hence why sengoku katana used it a lot.
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Post by bradc on Mar 11, 2022 0:23:02 GMT
A good alternative to glue of any kind is kosune. Cottontail custom has an easy tutorial I think. The information is out there for those who want to lear and improve. You wanna use epoxy go ahead. it's not about traditionalist crap I like modern made stuff. I don't mind different materials. Do you forget I have a shop selling 3D tsuba and parts. But I put effort in making them correctly in shape and size and function. I don't mind a different alternative to samegawa as long as it's done nicely, I don't mind a Ito made of a different materials along as it's done well and the tsukamaki is done well. Can you point me to a source for kusune, or instructions on making it? I've tried combining rapeseed oil & pine resin at different proportions, and mostly I end up with a lollipop that doesn't wipe its stickiness onto the ito very well. I've googled & searched Youtube and can't really find a how-to. I think it's a Masonic Illuminati secret, or something. I wish I remembered the source (It was from a Japanese sword forum years ago) I hope this is legible. Basically its a 1:1 resin to oil ratio not heated above 100C. ![Screenshot_20220310-162133_WhatsApp.jpg](//storage.forums.net/1694914/thumbnailer/HkvY0B0knNCtmIHXDJiE.png) For use in tsukamaki you basically twirl some on a stick while its warm. Then after it cools, use it to rub the back of the ito. If you can find it, my friend claims Rawlings Pine Tar Stick (a baseball product) works similarly. For those who aren't familiar with it. Here's a video of someone doing that:
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Post by Arlequin on Mar 11, 2022 4:34:01 GMT
These days there are multiple options for aftermarket tsukamaki services, cottontail custom, the man in black, raizen sadamori, sergio, shadrik and a few more, the man in black offers hinerimaki starting at 60 dollars and going up depending if you want new samegawa or a new core and he is USA based, raizen sadamori is below the 200 mark EU based, there is good craftsman out there that can do the work. having said that paying for a new tsukamaki for a sub 200 sword is a slippery slope as the core often is more work to get fixed than it is worth and drives most people crazy, however I would be very cautious sending anything back to china for work if it is 20 dollar to send and 20 to return it must be at least 50 dollars to wrap and the you still get the same crap wrap you had to start with. So if you are going to spend the good part of 100 dollar to have it wrapped I would spend that money on someone that can least do a better job. Sergio Shad Raizen the man in black Cotton tail custom I'm interested in Sergio and Shad, has anyone ever had trouble shipping their blades to them from The US?
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steveboy
Member
Measure twice, cut once.
Posts: 372
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Post by steveboy on Mar 11, 2022 5:37:49 GMT
I wish I remembered the source (It was from a Japanese sword forum years ago) I hope this is legible. Basically its a 1:1 resin to oil ratio not heated above 100C. For use in tsukamaki you basically twirl some on a stick while its warm. Then after it cools, use it to rub the back of the ito. Thanks very much! That's actually the recipe I used previously (no doubt found on the same forum you found it on), but it didn't work too well for me after a few attempts. Somehow I didn't catch the 100C detail -- I'm willing to bet I overheated it, because what I end up with looks like a candy lollipop, and is about as sticky.
I'm very glad you pointed that detail out; I'll definitely give it another go.
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Post by bradc on Mar 11, 2022 9:00:26 GMT
I wish I remembered the source (It was from a Japanese sword forum years ago) I hope this is legible. Basically its a 1:1 resin to oil ratio not heated above 100C. For use in tsukamaki you basically twirl some on a stick while its warm. Then after it cools, use it to rub the back of the ito. Thanks very much! That's actually the recipe I used previously (no doubt found on the same forum you found it on), but it didn't work too well for me after a few attempts. Somehow I didn't catch the 100C detail -- I'm willing to bet I overheated it, because what I end up with looks like a candy lollipop, and is about as sticky.
I'm very glad you pointed that detail out; I'll definitely give it another go. I wonder if the resin itself makes a difference too. Some resins are really hard. Matsuyani might be a specific formulation. Next time I try a wrap I am thinking about trying violin rosin. It comes in various hardnesses (dark to light) and is used to increase friction on the bow, which is a similar sounding idea...
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StudentOfWarCustoms
Member
"When the sword of rebellion is drawn, the sheath should be thrown away"- English proverb
Posts: 64
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Post by StudentOfWarCustoms on Mar 11, 2022 14:01:08 GMT
Really all of this begs the question; Why did the Japanese make their sword handles seemingly so complicated compared to, say, European swords? I would say everybody else's swords, but I'm not aware of all the Asian styles so I don't know if such relative complexity is a common theme amongst them. I mean we're talking about times in history where people really had to work hard for a living. It's not like they had to think of ways to kill boredom by coming up with relatively complex woven grips for sword handles. This is actually where it can get very interesting because not all swords in Japan at the time of the samurai were that fancy. Now keep in mind a lot doing with Japanese swords was a downright copy or inspiration by Chinese swords. For example if you look at Chinese swords they do have rayskin wrapped handles at times (I haven't done enough research to know if they was super common or just something on the swords of high class people but it did exist). There were some tsuka in Japan that likewise didn't use ito, now a days it's more common on tanto but it was done on wakizashi, katana, tachi, etc. Even tsukamaki styles can be somewhat similar, for example both in Japan and China they did hira maki. Not all swords historically even had samegawa. If you were a lower class samurai or this was a loaner sword to have in a castle armory than they often didn't have samegawa. Sometimes they didn't use regular ito either. They did use twine to wrap a katana if they didn't have much money and believe it or not they even used paper ito. Even certain styles of tsukamaki were more for those who had money vs those who didn't have as much money but still needed their swords wrapped. Lol sort of like sending the telegram in the 3 Amigos "23 pesos" "We only have 10!" "I'll give you the 10 peso version!" Also we have to keep in mind different provinces in Japan had different priorities when it came to how their swords were put together. For example in Satsuma province it was extremely common for samurai to not even use menuki on their swords at all. If you look at the wrap style gyu kawa kumiage maki it's basically a variation of a katate maki (battle wrap) that uses 3 pieces of ito per side woven in the katate maki instead of menuki and that one was particularly common among Christian samurai.
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Post by Shinken Studio on Mar 11, 2022 14:09:51 GMT
Just browsed through your site. I really like some of the color schemes and end results. Thank you for sharing. I have to admit being a bit hesitant about shipping to and from Croatia to the US though.... Thank you very much, JH Lee. I haven't had the time to upload my latest work and reviews, but I will get onto it as soon as I finish the current project. Shipping saya and tsuka is not a problem. However, I remember reading there are some problems with shipping swords from the US. I don't know if that's still the case. I wish I remembered the source (It was from a Japanese sword forum years ago) I hope this is legible. Basically its a 1:1 resin to oil ratio not heated above 100C. For use in tsukamaki you basically twirl some on a stick while its warm. Then after it cools, use it to rub the back of the ito. Thanks very much! That's actually the recipe I used previously (no doubt found on the same forum you found it on), but it didn't work too well for me after a few attempts. Somehow I didn't catch the 100C detail -- I'm willing to bet I overheated it, because what I end up with looks like a candy lollipop, and is about as sticky.
I'm very glad you pointed that detail out; I'll definitely give it another go.
Did you use regular pine resin or black pine resin? It's complete blasphemy, but I've experimented with using a glue roller for one project and the results were amazing. You simply roll it on the ito same as you would do with the kusune stick.
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Post by Stef on Mar 11, 2022 16:52:29 GMT
A good alternative to glue of any kind is kosune. Cottontail custom has an easy tutorial I think. The information is out there for those who want to lear and improve. You wanna use epoxy go ahead. it's not about traditionalist crap I like modern made stuff. I don't mind different materials. Do you forget I have a shop selling 3D tsuba and parts. But I put effort in making them correctly in shape and size and function. I don't mind a different alternative to samegawa as long as it's done nicely, I don't mind a Ito made of a different materials along as it's done well and the tsukamaki is done well. Can you point me to a source for kusune, or instructions on making it? I've tried combining rapeseed oil & pine resin at different proportions, and mostly I end up with a lollipop that doesn't wipe its stickiness onto the ito very well. I've googled & searched Youtube and can't really find a how-to. I think it's a Masonic Illuminati secret, or something. www.cottontailcustoms.com/slipping-tsukamaki-blues/www.namikawa-ltd.com/product/1438
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Post by Stef on Mar 11, 2022 17:10:10 GMT
Really all of this begs the question; Why did the Japanese make their sword handles seemingly so complicated compared to, say, European swords? I would say everybody else's swords, but I'm not aware of all the Asian styles so I don't know if such relative complexity is a common theme amongst them. I mean we're talking about times in history where people really had to work hard for a living. It's not like they had to think of ways to kill boredom by coming up with relatively complex woven grips for sword handles. This is actually where it can get very interesting because not all swords in Japan at the time of the samurai were that fancy. Now keep in mind a lot doing with Japanese swords was a downright copy or inspiration by Chinese swords. For example if you look at Chinese swords they do have rayskin wrapped handles at times (I haven't done enough research to know if they was super common or just something on the swords of high class people but it did exist). There were some tsuka in Japan that likewise didn't use ito, now a days it's more common on tanto but it was done on wakizashi, katana, tachi, etc. Even tsukamaki styles can be somewhat similar, for example both in Japan and China they did hira maki. Not all swords historically even had samegawa. If you were a lower class samurai or this was a loaner sword to have in a castle armory than they often didn't have samegawa. Sometimes they didn't use regular ito either. They did use twine to wrap a katana if they didn't have much money and believe it or not they even used paper ito. Even certain styles of tsukamaki were more for those who had money vs those who didn't have as much money but still needed their swords wrapped. Lol sort of like sending the telegram in the 3 Amigos "23 pesos" "We only have 10!" "I'll give you the 10 peso version!" Also we have to keep in mind different provinces in Japan had different priorities when it came to how their swords were put together. For example in Satsuma province it was extremely common for samurai to not even use menuki on their swords at all. If you look at the wrap style gyu kawa kumiage maki it's basically a variation of a katate maki (battle wrap) that uses 3 pieces of ito per side woven in the katate maki instead of menuki and that one was particularly common among Christian samurai. yes material wise very varied but this was rare, some eye candy no ito not core not much really very strange ![7ddf5954472f6746f59751514e5c9e51.jpg](//storage.forums.net/1694914/thumbnailer/VnorkxChNBINfPCTgzRb.png) ![6173ee10a6959d39511b8451af262ce9.jpg](//storage.forums.net/1694914/thumbnailer/TiAVfQymSbSBzpAVzNlu.png) yamagane (steel) ![s-l1600 1.jpg](//storage.forums.net/1694914/thumbnailer/e0cMGBGSWkYfCUGUYxwM.png) ![s-l1600 2.jpg](//storage.forums.net/1694914/thumbnailer/uHRzozVcGgWFKTurkfhX.png) ![s-l1600 3.jpg](//storage.forums.net/1694914/thumbnailer/asICoqSwPZvAIkCcZYDY.png) ![s-l1600 4.jpg](//storage.forums.net/1694914/thumbnailer/sEsdSJvbFlNKkYnVxiNj.png) ![s-l1600 5.jpg](//storage.forums.net/1694914/thumbnailer/MCOGObhfQLTpKXNUWIuU.png) ![s-l1600 6.jpg](//storage.forums.net/1694914/thumbnailer/agWDKgzAHguyQXKBQMyi.png) ![s-l1600 7.jpg](//storage.forums.net/1694914/thumbnailer/jFVJfVLVPULOgagn0LHE.png) ![s-l1600.jpg](//storage.forums.net/1694914/thumbnailer/JGTYntVbHibgLuFCSLdd.png) wood ![1901914_750526581633437_395855133_n.jpg](//storage.forums.net/1694914/thumbnailer/dPHNptcjNOmiwyNWhjKl.png) paper tsukamaki ![22221719_282604428895125_5990255040023481591_n.jpg](//storage.forums.net/1694914/thumbnailer/zuZfJIeiGktk0EUwqzJO.png)
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StudentOfWarCustoms
Member
"When the sword of rebellion is drawn, the sheath should be thrown away"- English proverb
Posts: 64
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Post by StudentOfWarCustoms on Mar 11, 2022 17:20:58 GMT
This is actually where it can get very interesting because not all swords in Japan at the time of the samurai were that fancy. Now keep in mind a lot doing with Japanese swords was a downright copy or inspiration by Chinese swords. For example if you look at Chinese swords they do have rayskin wrapped handles at times (I haven't done enough research to know if they was super common or just something on the swords of high class people but it did exist). There were some tsuka in Japan that likewise didn't use ito, now a days it's more common on tanto but it was done on wakizashi, katana, tachi, etc. Even tsukamaki styles can be somewhat similar, for example both in Japan and China they did hira maki. Not all swords historically even had samegawa. If you were a lower class samurai or this was a loaner sword to have in a castle armory than they often didn't have samegawa. Sometimes they didn't use regular ito either. They did use twine to wrap a katana if they didn't have much money and believe it or not they even used paper ito. Even certain styles of tsukamaki were more for those who had money vs those who didn't have as much money but still needed their swords wrapped. Lol sort of like sending the telegram in the 3 Amigos "23 pesos" "We only have 10!" "I'll give you the 10 peso version!" Also we have to keep in mind different provinces in Japan had different priorities when it came to how their swords were put together. For example in Satsuma province it was extremely common for samurai to not even use menuki on their swords at all. If you look at the wrap style gyu kawa kumiage maki it's basically a variation of a katate maki (battle wrap) that uses 3 pieces of ito per side woven in the katate maki instead of menuki and that one was particularly common among Christian samurai. yes material wise very varied but this was rare, some eye candy no ito not core not much really very strange yamagane (steel) wood paper tsukamaki I'd say now a days it's rare but we can never know exactly how common things like twine were. I'm sure many used twine temporarily until they were in a financial situation to afford soomething better. Definitely interesting examples though. With swords like the first 1 I've always wondered if that way ever really used by someone expecting to actually use a sword. Looks like it would be very rough on the hands so possibly something used by a general or someone else who carried a sword but wasn't likely to use it for actual fighting?
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steveboy
Member
Measure twice, cut once.
Posts: 372
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Post by steveboy on Mar 11, 2022 19:16:33 GMT
Did you use regular pine resin or black pine resin? It's complete blasphemy, but I've experimented with using a glue roller for one project and the results were amazing. You simply roll it on the ito same as you would do with the kusune stick. I used pure small-grain regular pine resin. I think I'm going to make some charcoal and add that next time. And yes, I've used an Avery Glue-Stic many many times. It's okay, but lacks the rigidity I think the resin provides.
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steveboy
Member
Measure twice, cut once.
Posts: 372
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Post by steveboy on Mar 11, 2022 19:17:57 GMT
I wonder if the resin itself makes a difference too. Some resins are really hard. Matsuyani might be a specific formulation. Next time I try a wrap I am thinking about trying violin rosin. It comes in various hardnesses (dark to light) and is used to increase friction on the bow, which is a similar sounding idea... From its color, I suspect the Matsuyani has charcoal, which a lot of resin-glue recipes & how-to's recommend.
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steveboy
Member
Measure twice, cut once.
Posts: 372
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Post by steveboy on Mar 11, 2022 19:26:46 GMT
Can you point me to a source for kusune, or instructions on making it? I've tried combining rapeseed oil & pine resin at different proportions, and mostly I end up with a lollipop that doesn't wipe its stickiness onto the ito very well. I've googled & searched Youtube and can't really find a how-to. I think it's a Masonic Illuminati secret, or something. www.cottontailcustoms.com/slipping-tsukamaki-blues/www.namikawa-ltd.com/product/1438Thank you! I've been to Cottontail's page several times. He says:
The exact recipe and process of making this sticky product is a pretty closely guarded secret, usually being passed down from teacher to student. Since I have no teacher or master, I have pieced together bits of information I gathered from books and internet to experiment in a lot of trial and error until I was satisfied with my results.
But carefully avoids giving a recipe. Hmm....
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steveboy
Member
Measure twice, cut once.
Posts: 372
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Post by steveboy on Mar 11, 2022 20:40:28 GMT
There isn't an exact recipe for making it... I do different "lollipops" for winter and for summer time... If you spend just a little time searching you will find a lot of info on the internet 😊 Iposted that I'd found the gif recipe on an old forum; that I've been to Cottontail's page about it several times; that I've read how-to's and watched YouTube videos; that I've read about using charcoal and how I think, from examples of Matsuyana I've seen online, that charcoal may be the difference. But sure, I'll try this "internet" thing you suggest.
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Post by Cottontail Customs on Mar 12, 2022 1:34:03 GMT
Thank you! I've been to Cottontail's page several times. He says: The exact recipe and process of making this sticky product is a pretty closely guarded secret, usually being passed down from teacher to student. Since I have no teacher or master, I have pieced together bits of information I gathered from books and internet to experiment in a lot of trial and error until I was satisfied with my results. But carefully avoids giving a recipe. Hmm.... I didn't realize I was carefully avoiding giving info... and here I thought all these years I was generously giving info ![:-[](//storage.forums.net/forum/images/smiley/embarrassed.png) . fyi, I share info in a number of different places, including the facebook group I created just for sharing info on katana craft... where I also go into detail on making kusune.
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steveboy
Member
Measure twice, cut once.
Posts: 372
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Post by steveboy on Mar 12, 2022 1:42:52 GMT
Thank you! I've been to Cottontail's page several times. He says: The exact recipe and process of making this sticky product is a pretty closely guarded secret, usually being passed down from teacher to student. Since I have no teacher or master, I have pieced together bits of information I gathered from books and internet to experiment in a lot of trial and error until I was satisfied with my results. But carefully avoids giving a recipe. Hmm.... I didn't realize I was carefully avoiding giving info... and here I thought all these years I was generously giving info ![:-[](//storage.forums.net/forum/images/smiley/embarrassed.png) . fyi, I share info in a number of different places, including the facebook group I created just for sharing info on katana craft... where I also go into detail on making kusune. I certainly didn't intend to sound disingenuous. I've benefited from your tutorials many times, and I've linked to them & credited you quite a bit on this forum.
I quoted your post above because it makes a point of saying the recipe is "a pretty closely guarded secret," then doesn't give it, so it didn't seem like a stretch to infer maybe you didn't intend to.
I won't join FB (hence joining this forum), so I'm SOL there.
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Post by steve2549 on May 26, 2022 12:47:23 GMT
These days there are multiple options for aftermarket tsukamaki services, cottontail custom, the man in black, raizen sadamori, sergio, shadrik and a few more, the man in black offers hinerimaki starting at 60 dollars and going up depending if you want new samegawa or a new core and he is USA based, raizen sadamori is below the 200 mark EU based, there is good craftsman out there that can do the work. having said that paying for a new tsukamaki for a sub 200 sword is a slippery slope as the core often is more work to get fixed than it is worth and drives most people crazy, however I would be very cautious sending anything back to china for work if it is 20 dollar to send and 20 to return it must be at least 50 dollars to wrap and the you still get the same crap wrap you had to start with. So if you are going to spend the good part of 100 dollar to have it wrapped I would spend that money on someone that can least do a better job. Sergio Shad Raizen the man in black Cotton tail custom Precisely my thoughts as well, once more- well said. Hello all, new newb member here. I need a re-wrap, and going off of these recommendations, who is, and how would I contact the man in black? I've heard Matthew Jensen mention him many times, though I can't find any info by searching "the man in black" except for Johnny Cash....
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Post by Roscoe57 on Jun 18, 2024 21:00:14 GMT
After my last new core and wrap from "the man in black" I never went back. 1. Pay for a full samegawa wrap and get panels. Made we wonder if he did the same with the other two? 2. Pay for a 11 inch tsuka and end up with 10.6 inches. 3. Ito could of been tighter. 4. The ito I sent was to short, my mistake for not measuring it. Man in Black "Randy" didn't measure it either and started the wrap. Letting me know when he was almost to the end that I had two choices: either cut the tsuka down to 9 inches or sent the correct length of ito. I had new ito sent. And Randy charged me a extra $40. Side note: The ito came from Sword Armory and was replaced by them free of change and sent straight to Randy. They also sent a free pocket knife for my trouble, but it was sent to Randy by accident. I dropped Randy a email asking if he received a pocket knife from SA? His reply was "did I?" My last email to him was yes you did from tracking. Then I said just keep it for your trouble. No reply. Randy sent a picture showing the ito was to short. Clearly shows panels. ![IMG_1809.JPG](//storage.forums.net/1694914/thumbnailer/EEfkaYKntfueztmcUvmL.png) I was also told not to mention his name on any social media pages. Nor does he advertise. Word of mouth only and you need a referal from a customer he likes. Payment by money order or cash only.
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