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Post by howler on Mar 13, 2020 21:40:21 GMT
And just to clarify, I don't hold the position that sharpness doens't matter. I'm saying that it's relative in context. Clearly, all things equal, a sharp sword of the same type as a dull sword of the same type will cut better. It' not appropriate to compare a traditionally razor sharp sword (katana) with one that traditionaly isn't as sharp (gladius) and then make a statement on sword sharpness. And then there is functional sharpness (a relative thing) vs what may be described as dysfunctional. For instance, people putting fine, literally razor edges on large, heavy blades then creating HUGE chips on a cut and ruining the blade.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Mar 13, 2020 21:58:31 GMT
While I’m happy to get a blade shaving sharp my grind is 25° and certainly no less the 22½°. By some miracle I have never chipped or dented an edge.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Mar 13, 2020 22:03:54 GMT
And just to clarify, I don't hold the position that sharpness doens't matter. I'm saying that it's relative in context. Clearly, all things equal, a sharp sword of the same type as a dull sword of the same type will cut better. It' not appropriate to compare a traditionally razor sharp sword (katana) with one that traditionaly isn't as sharp (gladius) and then make a statement on sword sharpness. And then there is functional sharpness (a relative thing) vs what may be described as dysfunctional. For instance, people putting fine, literally razor edges on large, heavy blades then creating HUGE chips on a cut and ruining the blade. Why is it that every time I go and write multiple paragraphs explaining a concept and you come along and sum it all up in one sentence? How do you do that? ?
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Post by howler on Mar 13, 2020 23:54:50 GMT
And then there is functional sharpness (a relative thing) vs what may be described as dysfunctional. For instance, people putting fine, literally razor edges on large, heavy blades then creating HUGE chips on a cut and ruining the blade. Why is it that every time I go and write multiple paragraphs explaining a concept and you come along and sum it all up in one sentence? How do you do that? ? Pure dumb luck and paraphrasing. I'd blame it on Corona (booze, that it is) but I'm unfortunately sober.
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Post by tsmspace on Mar 15, 2020 1:42:54 GMT
I think that because technique takes practice, it will be easier (I don't want to say better) to have success with a sharper blade when you are first learning to cut. Then, over time, you will gain familiarity with the materials you cut, and what it takes to cut them, and you would PROBABLY favor a blade that will offer the maximum durability while still performing the cut, at your given level of strength and skill. so when starting out, it could be argued sharper is better, because you can practice effective cuts, or it could be argued that duller is better, because it will force you to have good technique to be successful. (although you will admittedly practice failure a lot). No, I'm sorry but I couldn't disagree with you more strongly about that. If you cut first, then try to learn technique all that will happen is that you will learn bad habits that later will make it impossible to learn properly later on. It's the path to failure. It is not possible to even diagnose a cut if you don't learn technique because you will never be able to determine what happened in order to correct it. You will not have the knowledge to consider the variables and make an assessment as to which one is the problem area. Learning to cut by randomizing all your swings, materials, blade profiles, etc is useless because for every successful cut you will never be able to duplicate it. It's leaving everything to random chance and never learning the lesson. The only way is to learn technique with a blunt sword. Then, after lots and lots of practice perfecting the technique, then start cutting with a sharp. Only then will you be able to understand each of the variables involved and be able to correct yourself. I'm not wanting to start an argument, because there is no value in that. My mind is set on this and nothing will make me change it. I am simply stating my position on the topic because I feel I have an ethical obligation to speak out against any form of training that I know will not work. However, everybody is free to pursue the hobby in whatever way they feel is right. As for me, I will always take the position that if you want to learn something, then learn it properly. And...I'm off my soapbox now... I would love to talk more about it. Not to argue but to enjoy the subject. here are some thoughts I have about your opinions. -I think that you would probably not learn what cutting with a dull sword can teach you unless you cut with a dull sword. However, you would not learn everything right away, and I would argue you would continuously learn for the rest of your life. So, if you START on a sharp sword, then over time still gain experience with a dull sword, you might not learn LESS in the long run, but you WOULD be more likely to cut, or anyway have an easier time cutting on the first day. -so, yes, if the blade is razor sharp, you would expect that the beginner would practice sloppy form, because it works just fine for them. Meanwhile the beginner who will only practice on a dull sword will need very good form in order to perform the cut, because otherwise the energy will not be available to separate the material, ,,, however when they then later practice with a sharp sword, they would likely "loosen up" their technique as a result, and allow the razor sharp blade to expand their freedom of motion. ,,, in the long run, when cutting with a dull sword, both swords-persons would need to "cut as though the sword were dull", and when cutting with a very sharp sword, both swords-persons would enjoy the freedom and flair that it allowed. -so, my suggestion that starting on a very sharp sword is based on the idea of gradually tightening up your technique, starting from a very loose requirement, and as time goes on gradually cutting with duller and duller edges (although not always, sometimes with sharper and sharper edges as entertainment desires) and then having the technique requirements to perform the cut gradually becoming more and more restrictive, until the swords-person is ultimately forced to use very dull edges, and very "correct technique". -the basic concept of starting with a dull sword, is that once a cut is achieved, the swords-person will not be able to cut any other way, and will always be forced to use "correct technique" , until that is the only way that they perform a cut. A major supporting argument is that if you use "correct technique" (which is what is the most energy efficient) then you will ALSO cause the least amount of damage and wear to the blade, so if you progress eventually to very sharp blades with very good technique, your blades will last very long compared to the "loose technique" slicer. -where I will suggest it's ok to go either way, is that in truth, once it's possible to loosen your technique, then more cutting potential is available. YOu will be able to approach from more angles, from more postures, and from more unconventional situations such as at momentum, and all of these options will require that you now exercise a wider and looser range of motion. You will want to cut from whatever motions might possibly work, not from only that singular motion that will provide the most effective, efficient, and least costly cut. ,,,, so if you will be practicing "poor technique" just anyway, then it doesn't matter if you start with it or end with it.
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Post by RaylonTheDemented on Mar 15, 2020 14:45:05 GMT
I like my steak knives to be sharp. Maybe my technique sucks.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Mar 16, 2020 0:31:08 GMT
I am not suggesting cutting with a dull sword. I am suggesting practicing technique with a dull sword. ONLY when you have learned good technique and can do it out of muscle memory, then and only then, pick up a sharp blade and cut with it. Until you understand your sword, there is no point in trying to cut with it because you won't be able to understand the dynamics of the cut to correct mistakes or even to understand when your sword is having an issue vs. you having a problem.
You really can't cut with a dull sword, only a sharp one. The question is, and remains, and will be again next week; "how sharp is sharp enough"? And my position hasn't changed: "sharpness" is relative, and technique is most important and is the first consideration over relative sharpness.
It looks like I will have to make a video or something to explain this properly. I'm not sure what I'm trying to say is being understood the way I intend it.
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Post by Lancelot Chan on Mar 16, 2020 6:34:16 GMT
This person cut "ok" with factory swords. Pay attention at 1:09 when he switched to a sword I sharpened. He cut through and hit the floor with the tip because of so little resistance felt relatively. He was used to giving more power to compensate the "normal factory sharpness".
I've had students who overpowered their cuts because of their swords' lack of sharpness. And such cuts wouldn't hit opponents in fight because of telegraphing intention.
With a sharper sword, I can strike with way better hidden intention and still attain a good result when hit.
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Post by Lancelot Chan on Mar 16, 2020 6:46:32 GMT
First sword was my sharpness. Starting 0:51 he uses a Dynasty forge factory sharpness. Big differences. You want such difference in combat? Your choice. :)
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Post by tsmspace on Mar 16, 2020 8:54:19 GMT
I like my steak knives to be sharp. Maybe my technique sucks. I don't see why you don't just cut your steak with a katana or something. I mean you need to get used to handling it.
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Post by tsmspace on Mar 16, 2020 8:59:36 GMT
This person cut "ok" with factory swords. Pay attention at 1:09 when he switched to a sword I sharpened. He cut through and hit the floor with the tip because of so little resistance felt relatively. He was used to giving more power to compensate the "normal factory sharpness". I've had students who overpowered their cuts because of their swords' lack of sharpness. And such cuts wouldn't hit opponents in fight because of telegraphing intention. With a sharper sword, I can strike with way better hidden intention and still attain a good result when hit. do you have a sharpening tutorial?? What equipment do you use to sharpen?? Can you equally sharpen inexpensive swords or do you rely on the quality sword to also hold a better edge? I am trying to learn to sharpen better, but it is probably difficult. I think I should buy some expensive kitchen knives and a high quality water-stone to learn to sharpen better., but then I also think I should be able to make a very good edge with a cheap knife and a cheap stone, but I cannot. I struggle to make smooth cut paper edge with such cheap knives and a cheap stone.
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Post by Lancelot Chan on Mar 16, 2020 9:24:19 GMT
This person cut "ok" with factory swords. Pay attention at 1:09 when he switched to a sword I sharpened. He cut through and hit the floor with the tip because of so little resistance felt relatively. He was used to giving more power to compensate the "normal factory sharpness". I've had students who overpowered their cuts because of their swords' lack of sharpness. And such cuts wouldn't hit opponents in fight because of telegraphing intention. With a sharper sword, I can strike with way better hidden intention and still attain a good result when hit. do you have a sharpening tutorial?? What equipment do you use to sharpen?? Can you equally sharpen inexpensive swords or do you rely on the quality sword to also hold a better edge? I am trying to learn to sharpen better, but it is probably difficult. I think I should buy some expensive kitchen knives and a high quality water-stone to learn to sharpen better., but then I also think I should be able to make a very good edge with a cheap knife and a cheap stone, but I cannot. I struggle to make smooth cut paper edge with such cheap knives and a cheap stone. I teach sharpening to paid students. :) So I have a sharpening tutorial. I use diamond sharpener like Atoma and DMT. Yes I can sharpen inexpensive swords too but the better the edge retention ability a sword has, the finer I can finish the edge apex at. Less quality swords will usually find their apex finished slightly thicker because of that. Practice cutting with realistic targets will give realistic feedback on what a technique could do. The feedback will be different with different sharpness. When one tries to force a less sharp sword to work on the target without fighting context in mind, the technique will then become distorted as a result.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Mar 16, 2020 11:57:38 GMT
This person cut "ok" with factory swords. Pay attention at 1:09 when he switched to a sword I sharpened. He cut through and hit the floor with the tip because of so little resistance felt relatively. He was used to giving more power to compensate the "normal factory sharpness". I've had students who overpowered their cuts because of their swords' lack of sharpness. And such cuts wouldn't hit opponents in fight because of telegraphing intention. With a sharper sword, I can strike with way better hidden intention and still attain a good result when hit. Yes, my point exactly. I agree 100% that relying on the sharpness of the sword over the precision of technique will result in overextending in a fight. It's more important to keep your strikes consistent and controlled rather than relying on the sharpness of the edge to carry the hit. If the sword won't cut with good technique, then it needs to be sharpened, if the sword won't cut with bad technique, then nobody knows what's wrong. I have made good cuts on targets with factory edges. If those edges were dressed with a stone to be sharper, then the cuts I made would have been cleaner, but it still cut in either case. A sharper sword is better, but it will get you nowhere if you still don't know how to use it. I would correct the student first for hitting the floor because that indicates he wasn't controlling the blade rather than concerning myself with the precision of the cut. After the student learns to control the blade, then we can look at the edge of the sword to see what's wrong with the actual cutting surface. He was expecting the target to react in a certain way which then in reverse dictated how he was going to hit it. In a fight, this will get you killed because if you are expecting to hit your opponent and miss, then you leave yourself exposed and without being in a good position for a follow up. Never strike expecting the enemy to do what you want them to. Control yourself. If you miss, then you miss. If you hit, then you hit. Both strikes should be the same.
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Post by Lancelot Chan on Mar 16, 2020 13:16:22 GMT
Hmm I'm not sure you get my point or not. Just elaborating in case I did not come through clear enough. People would like to see themselves cutting through the targets well and nice, which is natural and understandable. No one likes to fail, after all. When the sword is not as sharp, their cuts will fail to penetrate completely even with good technique and power. Then, that's where they will start to put more POWER into the cuts to make it cut through completely. And that's where the distortion from actual combat applications will start to emerge, since opponents, being a living beings and uncooperative in nature, will notice the "powering up" stage and evade / defend, rather than just getting hit if there's no such telegraphing intention.
A good technique with good power, can make a less sharp sword to go through the same target, but that only goes certain extend before one needing to put too much power into it to compensate for lack of sharpness.
It's like driving. Now take sharpness as your car's horse power, like it's "eagerness to go through a turn by itself". When driving high horse power cars, your throttle controls have to be a lot more fine and sensitive at the foot, in order to survive turning corners, or one would over power and spins out of control due to losing traction due to too much power in the rear wheel.
People driving slower cars would be stomping on the throttle a lot harder relatively, since the car doesn't easily spin out. Thus slow car drivers will not be able to handle the fast cars until they improve and refine their driving habits.
Given the technique is equally good, people who're used to using less sharp sword, will unknowingly putting in more power in the cut to make it work, thus more telegraphing in combat. It's a trade off. And they would not have the understandings of the needs for "refinement" in hiding intention since that would make their cuts not working at all, unless they start using sharper swords. Then, they will realize it doesn't take that much power to work, thus also realize the possibility to "refine" their motion into finer, more subtle movement.
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Post by Lancelot Chan on Mar 16, 2020 13:21:10 GMT
Of course if one only cuts easy targets (water bottles, jugs, mugen dachi tatami), one wouldn't notice such differences. These issues with sharpness will become obvious when one has to cut substantial targets simulating flesh and bone and maybe even clothes.
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Zen_Hydra
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Post by Zen_Hydra on Mar 16, 2020 13:57:56 GMT
Technique =/= Sharpness
Suggesting that any amount of technique can functionally substitute for a properly sharpened blade is ludicrous. Talking about technique in the context of blade sharpness, at all, just unnecessarily obfuscates the topic.
Technique is a property of a person.
Sharpness is a property of a blade.
...and I swear...if someone suggests that they can manipulate their ki to make a sword effectively sharper...I will find a way to reach through my computer screen and slap them.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Mar 16, 2020 14:07:01 GMT
...and I swear...if someone suggests that they can manipulate their ki to make a sword effectively sharper...I will find a way to reach through my computer screen and slap them. That can be done with a Katana.....
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Post by RufusScorpius on Mar 16, 2020 14:14:00 GMT
Hmm I'm not sure you get my point or not. Just elaborating in case I did not come through clear enough. People would like to see themselves cutting through the targets well and nice, which is natural and understandable. No one likes to fail, after all. When the sword is not as sharp, their cuts will fail to penetrate completely even with good technique and power. Then, that's where they will start to put more POWER into the cuts to make it cut through completely. And that's where the distortion from actual combat applications will start to emerge, since opponents, being a living beings and uncooperative in nature, will notice the "powering up" stage and evade / defend, rather than just getting hit if there's no such telegraphing intention. A good technique with good power, can make a less sharp sword to go through the same target, but that only goes certain extend before one needing to put too much power into it to compensate for lack of sharpness. It's like driving. Now take sharpness as your car's horse power, like it's "eagerness to go through a turn by itself". When driving high horse power cars, your throttle controls have to be a lot more fine and sensitive at the foot, in order to survive turning corners, or one would over power and spins out of control due to losing traction due to too much power in the rear wheel. People driving slower cars would be stomping on the throttle a lot harder relatively, since the car doesn't easily spin out. Thus slow car drivers will not be able to handle the fast cars until they improve and refine their driving habits. Given the technique is equally good, people who're used to using less sharp sword, will unknowingly putting in more power in the cut to make it work, thus more telegraphing in combat. It's a trade off. And they would not have the understandings of the needs for "refinement" in hiding intention since that would make their cuts not working at all, unless they start using sharper swords. Then, they will realize it doesn't take that much power to work, thus also realize the possibility to "refine" their motion into finer, more subtle movement. We exactly agree. There is no daylight between our points of view. My position on the topic is that for a great many people, they use the sharpness of the blade as either an excuse or a crutch to compensate for bad cutting techniques. Just like your driving analogy: if a person can't drive to begin with, then what difference does the power or handling of the car make in that situation? Blaming the car for the lack of skill of the driver makes no sense. I can drive, but I can't drive an F1 racer, but those that have been trained to do so can and will absolutely make minced meat out of me in a race: therefore I blame the car? Or do I blame my lack of training with the car? Likewise, an F1 racer can feel when his car is not performing correctly during a race and gets it looked at by the crew. Same with a sword: if you have knowledge and skill with it, then you will know when it's getting dull and not performing correctly and needs a touch up. We are agreeing on the subject, but I think from different directions
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Mar 16, 2020 18:15:47 GMT
There is also “British Sword Fighting 1600-1945” from Lulu in the same series. I have all three. There are about as many ways to test sword sharpness and techniques as people asked. My advice is to experiment and use what suites one, or if one is really demanding for the particular job at hand as not all jobs are best executed with the same grind and blade geometry. As for me, normally a 25° will do for my swords and machetes although I’ve gone ±5°. For my kitchen knives and GP bowie normally 17½-20°. For the kitchen knives that Hazel uses 25° and I’m tempted to go more, she has no respect for a good edge. Usually when I finish sharpening and the blade is shaving sharp I’m satisfied although this is sharper than necessary for most of what I do. Yes British Sword Fighting 1600-1945 is the one I have right now actually. I get them mixed up . I believe it's the "compiled" most recent version. I think reading just the first couple of chapters would be enormously educational to everyone here. Especially when it comes to the sharpness debate. I am thinking of making a thread with a few excerpts that I believe would be the best bang for the buck anecdotes to keep in mind. “British Sword Fighting 1600-1945” © 2008-2018 and “Bloody Blades of the British Empire” © 2019. I believe many of the members would benefit from excerpts using any or all of these books. They are jewels from countless aspects. A thing of interests are the accounts of a specific incident as witnessed by various people. There are about as many variations in the story as observers, all depending how they saw it and their prejudices. Very much like the two newspapers in Tombstone. One was pro Earps, they anti Earps. I was reading an educational account on pages 374-375 in the former book last night concerning Sir Sidney Smith just before the turn of the 19th century concerning the dirk. This was just about the time the navy was beginning to take interest in such a knife of which he was a strong advocate. He had gone to Woolwich Military Academy (Sandhurst didn’t come along until the early 1800s) and several of the officers there wished to see a demonstration with the dirk. Using the one he was carrying gave a demo blocking then attacking all attempts against him with a cutlass. His method was similar to what I learned with Chinese Butterfly Swords. They blade needs to be long enough to cover the elbow in the reverse grip. Using a reverse grip with the blade resting against his forearm he would block and then attack before the sword wielder could recover. A little bit over simplified but that’s basically it. It’s a good move and works with my dagger with its 17” or 18” blade. I have a video of that dagger doing a sword take-away now I can add one more trick to my bag.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Mar 16, 2020 22:56:25 GMT
I am thinking of making a thread with a few excerpts that I believe would be the best bang for the buck anecdotes to keep in mind. As I said I think many members would enjoy that but a word of warning, be sure to state where the quote or whatever comes from least you and the forum will be in a copyright violation.
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