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Post by randomnobody on Jul 27, 2019 1:50:00 GMT
Years ago I shaved my face with a pocket knife...
Every time this subject comes up, I'm reminded of something Tinker once said. To paraphrase, "I can polish a 90-degree angle to the point it pops hair, but it would make a terrible cutter."
A blade can be sharp but not cut well, a blade can be dull and still cut well. Shape is more important in the end.
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Post by Adventurer'sBlade on Aug 22, 2019 13:21:33 GMT
An actual functional benchmark for the OP: If it can cleanly slice a sheet of paper, the problem is definitely your technique. It probably can't slice paper. Cutting also requires practice to learn.
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Ifrit
Member
More edgy than a double edge sword
Posts: 3,284
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Post by Ifrit on Aug 23, 2019 14:58:58 GMT
I like different edges and sharpness on different swords/tools. I prefer that all can at least cut paper, but something like a bayonet doesn't need to have a good slicing geometry and likely never will have one anyway. But I do like it to slice on its way into a thrust.
My machete I like to have it just sharp enough to bite with a gentle flick, but not so sharp I can shave. Same with my kukri
My katana I like to have shaving sharp, definitely, and same with my swords that fall into the light spectrum
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Post by alexkjren on Jan 17, 2020 4:07:16 GMT
Thanks so much for all the info guys!! Really great stuff. It's an Oakeshott type XII, not sure of thats what you were looking for as far as design. I definitely do not have good form at the moment but look forward to improving. I will reach out to these members down the road perhaps, but I think it'd be a good start to narrow down if it is the design and/or me! Getting back to your question, we really need to know make and model of the sword to help you in the best way possible. If the sword really is a type XII (it might not be, there are disreputable sellers who have been known to mislead cistomers), then it SHOULD be very sharp. This type is designed to be very good at cutting and slicing so "blunt impact" is not at all what it should be doing. If the manufacturer and/or seller suggested anything of the sort, then they're full of you know what and you should consider never buying from them again
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reptaronice1
Member
Tell Me... Friend... When Did Saruman The Wise Abandon Reason For Madness?!
Posts: 2,360
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Post by reptaronice1 on Jan 17, 2020 13:32:54 GMT
Hey everyone! I am brand new here so I apologize for obvious questions or lack of lingo. Anyhow, I received my first sword back in December as a Christmas gift. Based on what I've read, it should be fully functional; 1085 carbon steel, fully tempered, full tang, etc. It was ordered sharpened but only the tip is noticeably so...I'd also heard though that swords traditionally relied more on blunt force oftentimes than a super refined edge since it left them hardier, so I didn't think much of it. Since I got it, I cleaned it up from the oil it was shipped with and polished/buffed it with renaissance wax to protect it from rusting and the leather parts from UV light. It has been mainly decoration but about a month ago I figured I could finally try cutting with it since it was nice out. I filled up a water bottle with warm water (I'd heard a milk jug was a decent target? so this was only a smaller scale,) took a swing and...launched it, no cuts. The tip of the blade easily sliced through with a thrust, but the long edge of the sword just isn't very sharp at all. Ultimately, I'd just like to cut some stuff for fun every once in a while and learn to handle it well enough that I feel safe wielding it on the back of my horse. So my main question is, how sharp should my sword be for this? How can I do this and know when it is sufficient, or is there a person I can send it to to work on it and how would my wants be accurately communicated? Does it sound like I'm doing anything wrong? I seriously have little to no knowledge in this area so literally any advice or commentary is helpful. Thank you guys so much! Send it off to someone who can sharpen it for you, I prefer my blades to be “very sharp” as KoA would classify it. Basically it can cut paper cleanly at that level of sharpness. That is for my katanas though and I’m only cutting plastic bottles, if your going to be cutting bamboo or something harder than bottles I would recommend “sharp” that is were it is still sharp but requires a bit more force in your swing, but also dulls slower and can take a hit more. On KoA I usually see euro blades listed as “sharp” or “unsharpened” if you want “razor sharp” it just needs some more fine sanding work. Trust me once it is to a level you will like, you will know. I have recently been doing iaido quick draws with my katana and can cut bottles in half using the sword one handed, so no “blunt force” needed at all really. I personally find katana to be more starter sword user friendly then euro blades from my experience at least.
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Post by pvsampson on Jan 18, 2020 0:14:53 GMT
Hey everyone! I am brand new here so I apologize for obvious questions or lack of lingo. Anyhow, I received my first sword back in December as a Christmas gift. Based on what I've read, it should be fully functional; 1085 carbon steel, fully tempered, full tang, etc. It was ordered sharpened but only the tip is noticeably so...I'd also heard though that swords traditionally relied more on blunt force oftentimes than a super refined edge since it left them hardier, so I didn't think much of it. Since I got it, I cleaned it up from the oil it was shipped with and polished/buffed it with renaissance wax to protect it from rusting and the leather parts from UV light. It has been mainly decoration but about a month ago I figured I could finally try cutting with it since it was nice out. I filled up a water bottle with warm water (I'd heard a milk jug was a decent target? so this was only a smaller scale,) took a swing and...launched it, no cuts. The tip of the blade easily sliced through with a thrust, but the long edge of the sword just isn't very sharp at all. Ultimately, I'd just like to cut some stuff for fun every once in a while and learn to handle it well enough that I feel safe wielding it on the back of my horse. So my main question is, how sharp should my sword be for this? How can I do this and know when it is sufficient, or is there a person I can send it to to work on it and how would my wants be accurately communicated? Does it sound like I'm doing anything wrong? I seriously have little to no knowledge in this area so literally any advice or commentary is helpful. Thank you guys so much! Send it off to someone who can sharpen it for you, I prefer my blades to be “very sharp” as KoA would classify it. Basically it can cut paper cleanly at that level of sharpness. That is for my katanas though and I’m only cutting plastic bottles, if your going to be cutting bamboo or something harder than bottles I would recommend “sharp” that is were it is still sharp but requires a bit more force in your swing, but also dulls slower and can take a hit more. On KoA I usually see euro blades listed as “sharp” or “unsharpened” if you want “razor sharp” it just needs some more fine sanding work. Trust me once it is to a level you will like, you will know. I have recently been doing iaido quick draws with my katana and can cut bottles in half using the sword one handed, so no “blunt force” needed at all really. I personally find katana to be more starter sword user friendly then euro blades from my experience at least. Post a vid of those cuts in the cutting sub.
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reptaronice1
Member
Tell Me... Friend... When Did Saruman The Wise Abandon Reason For Madness?!
Posts: 2,360
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Post by reptaronice1 on Jan 18, 2020 3:21:37 GMT
Send it off to someone who can sharpen it for you, I prefer my blades to be “very sharp” as KoA would classify it. Basically it can cut paper cleanly at that level of sharpness. That is for my katanas though and I’m only cutting plastic bottles, if your going to be cutting bamboo or something harder than bottles I would recommend “sharp” that is were it is still sharp but requires a bit more force in your swing, but also dulls slower and can take a hit more. On KoA I usually see euro blades listed as “sharp” or “unsharpened” if you want “razor sharp” it just needs some more fine sanding work. Trust me once it is to a level you will like, you will know. I have recently been doing iaido quick draws with my katana and can cut bottles in half using the sword one handed, so no “blunt force” needed at all really. I personally find katana to be more starter sword user friendly then euro blades from my experience at least. Post a vid of those cuts in the cutting sub. Check out my post on why I like musha’s, they are in there
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Post by tsmspace on Mar 13, 2020 6:49:50 GMT
I started cutting with water-filled milk jugs, which are VERY soft and gummy, so you don't need a sharp sword, or a quality sword, to slice through them like butter.
If you consider the energy of a swing, your sword won't need to be very sharp for a lot of soft materials like milk jugs. A pocket knife has a more obtuse edge than a razor blade, and a sword will have a more obtuse edge than a knife in many cases, because you are going to hit it, instead of gently push. It will still come to a "corner" edge, but the angle of that corner will be wider on many swords, because
- when you hit it, a thin wafer of metal will not hold its shape, it will bend like foil (which a thin blade is)
- also when you hit with it, the energy is still focused onto the single line of the corner of the edge. being very thin will allow the blade to gently slide into the material, allowing it to continue to separate it, but because you are swinging the sword, it will have significantly more energy available for the profile of the blade to spread the material exposing it to the edge.
the sharpness of the sword as a preference is probably a misleading idea. Instead, think of the sharpness of your sword as an aspect of your skill level. you will gradually cut with increasing and then decreasing and then increasing sharpness as you gain experience. you will learn how each shape of edge works, and how to make the most of it. slicing materials into pieces is only one task that a sword can be designed for, and over time you will be entertained and interested in a variety of the tasks a sword can be designed for, leading you to desire varying sharpness. In history, people made all sorts of swords that were not designed to slice materials apart, but instead designed to arrive at the target still able to cause appropriate damage. But on the same day, someone else spent their day honing a sword to a razor, and cutting materials into pieces.
If you have a folded, no longer straight blade, it will not cut more effectively than a blade that has a smooth, intentional edge that is very obtuse.
the "saw" effect is for someone who will frequently swipe their blade with a sharpener of some sort,just before cutting, because these saws are also fragile, and quickly wear down. however, a very smooth and polished edge is very difficult to obtain. It takes a very high level of skill, and is best obtained with high quality, rare materials. A smooth polished edge, however, is significantly more durable, because all of the metal falls within the strong geometry of straight lines, (the most efficient way to transfer energy).
the "saw" effect works, because at the scale of the tip of the saw, all of the energy of the swing is focused onto the saw points, instead of the entire length of the blade. However, then the energy must transfer through these saw points and into the body of the blade. This means that in order for the energy to disperse, it must travel through the bases of these little burrs, which will require the energy to change direction before it ultimately disperses. If the energy is able to travel directly from the point of contact and spread evenly across the entire angle of the edge, then all of the edge will share an equal amount of energy, meaning that no part of the blade is particularly stressed more than any other part of the blade,,, yet the material that is struck will STILL encounter the smooth, yet very narrow, edge first.
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Zen_Hydra
Moderator
Born with a heart full of neutrality
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Post by Zen_Hydra on Mar 13, 2020 13:53:00 GMT
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Post by RufusScorpius on Mar 13, 2020 14:11:37 GMT
"Sharpness" all depends on application. The first thing to consider is to what level of sharpness the sword was engineered to hold in the first place. This consideration is based on expected use, type of material, and application of the weapon.
For example: a field issued sword given to a mud cruncher will not have a razor sharp edge. The sword is most likely made of a low quality steel and the edge thickness is irregular due to the primary considerations of manufacture being time and cost of production. The other factor being field maintenance. The edge profile will be determined by the limitations of durability, safety, and sharpening equipment available in the field. In this case "sharp enough" is good enough.
For a civilian sword, the same limitations apply as a military blade to a certain extent: but the intended use is different. For such a blade, being razor sharp is more of the goal.
But with everything else there are examples that don't fit the overall generalizations, or fall into two categories (like the katana which can be either military or civilian and is razor sharp)
I personally think sharpness is overrated. Technique is a huge factor in a sword's ability to cut. And if a sword is "sharp enough" and used with good technique, then it will do a good job. I often feel that the "sharpness" argument is being used to excuse poor training.
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Post by tsmspace on Mar 13, 2020 16:27:35 GMT
I personally think sharpness is overrated. Technique is a huge factor in a sword's ability to cut. And if a sword is "sharp enough" and used with good technique, then it will do a good job. I often feel that the "sharpness" argument is being used to excuse poor training. I think that because technique takes practice, it will be easier (I don't want to say better) to have success with a sharper blade when you are first learning to cut. Then, over time, you will gain familiarity with the materials you cut, and what it takes to cut them, and you would PROBABLY favor a blade that will offer the maximum durability while still performing the cut, at your given level of strength and skill. so when starting out, it could be argued sharper is better, because you can practice effective cuts, or it could be argued that duller is better, because it will force you to have good technique to be successful. (although you will admittedly practice failure a lot).
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Post by tsmspace on Mar 13, 2020 16:33:01 GMT
because what happens when the energy is forced to change direction, is the points of contact between the teeth and the rest of the blade will experience two phenomenon. First, they will have the energy act upon them for a longer duration than would be required of the metal in a smoother more well polished blade, (the transfer will result in delay, as the energy covers more distance), and second, which is the same as the first, the metal will heat up. This heating will result in changes in the metallurgy of the teeth,,, they will anneal. This means that even though the stress of the material they are pressing on might not be enough to sheer the teeth off, the metal will soften for the next interaction. (either with a target, or with another material such as a hand holding the blade or a storage material such as a scabbard)
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Post by RufusScorpius on Mar 13, 2020 17:08:33 GMT
I personally think sharpness is overrated. Technique is a huge factor in a sword's ability to cut. And if a sword is "sharp enough" and used with good technique, then it will do a good job. I often feel that the "sharpness" argument is being used to excuse poor training. I think that because technique takes practice, it will be easier (I don't want to say better) to have success with a sharper blade when you are first learning to cut. Then, over time, you will gain familiarity with the materials you cut, and what it takes to cut them, and you would PROBABLY favor a blade that will offer the maximum durability while still performing the cut, at your given level of strength and skill. so when starting out, it could be argued sharper is better, because you can practice effective cuts, or it could be argued that duller is better, because it will force you to have good technique to be successful. (although you will admittedly practice failure a lot). No, I'm sorry but I couldn't disagree with you more strongly about that. If you cut first, then try to learn technique all that will happen is that you will learn bad habits that later will make it impossible to learn properly later on. It's the path to failure. It is not possible to even diagnose a cut if you don't learn technique because you will never be able to determine what happened in order to correct it. You will not have the knowledge to consider the variables and make an assessment as to which one is the problem area. Learning to cut by randomizing all your swings, materials, blade profiles, etc is useless because for every successful cut you will never be able to duplicate it. It's leaving everything to random chance and never learning the lesson. The only way is to learn technique with a blunt sword. Then, after lots and lots of practice perfecting the technique, then start cutting with a sharp. Only then will you be able to understand each of the variables involved and be able to correct yourself. I'm not wanting to start an argument, because there is no value in that. My mind is set on this and nothing will make me change it. I am simply stating my position on the topic because I feel I have an ethical obligation to speak out against any form of training that I know will not work. However, everybody is free to pursue the hobby in whatever way they feel is right. As for me, I will always take the position that if you want to learn something, then learn it properly. And...I'm off my soapbox now...
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Post by RufusScorpius on Mar 13, 2020 17:56:40 GMT
It's just not a good day today... Brother, I respect you to the ends of the Earth, but I must also disagree with you. I don't feel this discussion is "monotonous" or irrelevant. I understand many on this forum just want to goof around with their blades and aren't interested in the deeper things. I don't have any problem with that. But there are others that want to learn the deeper things about the blade. I feel intellectual discussions are every bit as needed and warranted as any other topic we discuss here. I don't discount those that want to play and have fun- if they are enjoying themselves then that makes me happy also. But in the same token, don't discount others who want to discuss the deeper philosophies. Again...off my soapbox..... (pinky promise for good this time!)
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Post by RufusScorpius on Mar 13, 2020 19:16:26 GMT
True, but isn't technique derived from years of hands on experience gained by many people? Why reinvent the wheel? And wasn't marcus313's infamous denim test enough to show that even with TWO unfamiliar blades (one being a machete), I was able to cut it to the core first time, knowing nothing at all about the "sharpness" of the blade, but only using my cutting technique?
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Post by MOK on Mar 13, 2020 19:33:06 GMT
Yeah, sharpness cannot make up for bad technique - and bad edge alignment, in particular, makes it completely irrelevant.
Good technique, on the other hand, can make up for a lack of sharpness, up to a point.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Mar 13, 2020 20:39:25 GMT
No, I don't mean to cause confusion. I was just pointing out, or at least attempting to, that with good technique it then becomes the attributes of the blade that can then be examined in reasonable detail. Without technique, the variables are too chaotic to make any assumptions about the relative sharpness of the sword.
At least that's what I think I was saying.
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Post by howler on Mar 13, 2020 21:08:40 GMT
Naturally, edge alignment is fundamentally important when making a cut (imagine striking with the flat of a blade, for instance ). However, I still want the best edge possible for the specific use of a given blade design. Sharpness may not be as important for larger swords as they are small skinning knives, for instance, but there are still areas when one can get a real advantage with a properly sharpened blade, maybe to the point of getting a great cut vs hardly anything.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Mar 13, 2020 21:29:26 GMT
And just to clarify, I don't hold the position that sharpness doens't matter. I'm saying that it's relative in context. Clearly, all things equal, a sharp sword of the same type as a dull sword of the same type will cut better. It' not appropriate to compare a traditionally razor sharp sword (katana) with one that traditionaly isn't as sharp (gladius) and then make a statement on sword sharpness.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Mar 13, 2020 21:37:49 GMT
There is also “British Sword Fighting 1600-1945” from Lulu in the same series. I have all three. There are about as many ways to test sword sharpness and techniques as people asked. My advice is to experiment and use what suites one, or if one is really demanding for the particular job at hand as not all jobs are best executed with the same grind and blade geometry. As for me, normally a 25° will do for my swords and machetes although I’ve gone ±5°. For my kitchen knives and GP bowie normally 17½-20°. For the kitchen knives that Hazel uses 25° and I’m tempted to go more, she has no respect for a good edge. Usually when I finish sharpening and the blade is shaving sharp I’m satisfied although this is sharper than necessary for most of what I do.
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