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Post by purpleroan on Jul 23, 2019 21:43:35 GMT
Hey everyone! I am brand new here so I apologize for obvious questions or lack of lingo. Anyhow, I received my first sword back in December as a Christmas gift. Based on what I've read, it should be fully functional; 1085 carbon steel, fully tempered, full tang, etc. It was ordered sharpened but only the tip is noticeably so...I'd also heard though that swords traditionally relied more on blunt force oftentimes than a super refined edge since it left them hardier, so I didn't think much of it.
Since I got it, I cleaned it up from the oil it was shipped with and polished/buffed it with renaissance wax to protect it from rusting and the leather parts from UV light. It has been mainly decoration but about a month ago I figured I could finally try cutting with it since it was nice out. I filled up a water bottle with warm water (I'd heard a milk jug was a decent target? so this was only a smaller scale,) took a swing and...launched it, no cuts. The tip of the blade easily sliced through with a thrust, but the long edge of the sword just isn't very sharp at all.
Ultimately, I'd just like to cut some stuff for fun every once in a while and learn to handle it well enough that I feel safe wielding it on the back of my horse. So my main question is, how sharp should my sword be for this? How can I do this and know when it is sufficient, or is there a person I can send it to to work on it and how would my wants be accurately communicated? Does it sound like I'm doing anything wrong? I seriously have little to no knowledge in this area so literally any advice or commentary is helpful. Thank you guys so much!
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Post by Jordan Williams on Jul 23, 2019 21:52:35 GMT
Swords never relied on blunt force to cut. That's a modern myth.
There's several people who sharpen swords as a service, including myself but mostly on antiques or western style military swords. Wes Beem is one that comes to mind immediately for sharpening, as well as Appleseed Sharpening.
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Post by Adrian Jordan on Jul 23, 2019 22:04:40 GMT
Hello, welcome to the forum. What type of sword is it? It may not be a design that is meant to be a cutter, which would be why the tip works but the edge doesn't. If that's not the case, then there are a couple of other factors to consider. One is that it may have a very robust geometry, which generally lends itself more to cutting harder and heavier targets. If so then it may just bat very light targets like small water bottles unless very good form is used. Small water bottles are actually slightly more difficult to cut than plastic milk jugs. Milk jugs are heavier, but the plastic is not as rigid. A second consideration would be user error. It's difficult to use good form and edge alignment at the beginning. It needs practice. The third consideration would be the one you suspect: the sharpening may not be great. If this is so, and you do not want to jump right into the deep end and try to sharpen it yourself, then there are folks on here that offer that service. Member Voltan, aka. Jason McEntee, of Appleseed Sharpening Custom Blades does it and is located in CA. Wes Beem of Lonely Wolf Forge is located in OH. Both are talented sharpeners and could help you. sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/user/11336sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/user/6553
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Post by purpleroan on Jul 24, 2019 2:34:04 GMT
Thanks so much for all the info guys!! Really great stuff. It's an Oakeshott type XII, not sure of thats what you were looking for as far as design. I definitely do not have good form at the moment but look forward to improving. I will reach out to these members down the road perhaps, but I think it'd be a good start to narrow down if it is the design and/or me!
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Post by leviathansteak on Jul 24, 2019 3:15:27 GMT
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Post by MOK on Jul 24, 2019 11:48:43 GMT
Of course there's always the dreadful possibility that it's just not a very good sword. Can't tell without knowing more about it - maker and model, photos, something. The most likely reason a sword fails to cut, though, is user error. Particularly edge alignment. It's tricky to begin with, and beginners almost universally use too much force which completely spoils their aim and stability. It's nothing to be ashamed of! I mean, it had better not be... even after years at it I still bat away the target way too often.
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Zen_Hydra
Moderator
Born with a heart full of neutrality
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Post by Zen_Hydra on Jul 24, 2019 14:34:51 GMT
Of course there's always the dreadful possibility that it's just not a very good sword. Can't tell without knowing more about it - maker and model, photos, something. The most likely reason a sword fails to cut, though, is user error. Particularly edge alignment. It's tricky to begin with, and beginners almost universally use too much force which completely spoils their aim and stability. It's nothing to be ashamed of! I mean, it had better not be... even after years at it I still bat away the target way too often. Proper form and edge alignment can't be stressed enough. I don't know how many times I've been cutting with a sword and a poor attempt just batted at the target, but then with a little correction I was easily able to successfully cut with the same sword and target. Some targets reinforce the necessity of good cutting structure, and others are much more forgiving. The plastic one gallon milk jugs commonly used in the US are soft enough plastic that you can afford to be a little sloppy, but the 52 ounce Fairlife "milk" cartons have a sturdy shrink-wrapped label covering a fairly hard plastic bottle, and they demand pretty much perfect form to cut effectively.
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christain
Member
It's the steel on the inside that counts.
Posts: 2,835
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Post by christain on Jul 24, 2019 15:56:27 GMT
I can attest to that last statement, somewhat. My cheapo Cold Steel axes and 'hawks are shaving sharp, and they are just one big beveled edge...no secondary at all.
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Post by rjodorizzi on Jul 24, 2019 19:07:51 GMT
As others have mentioned sharpness a lot of times is a matter of preference. Wes Beam can make things SCARY sharp and comes highly recommended.
I prefer a functional edge, most because these are the ones I can maintain myself. I don't kneed it to be a razor blade, but I do need it to cut which is a comfortable balance for me! That being said some blade types, mostly eastern blades, I prefer razor sharp.
Albion's stock hollow ground edge is generally as sharp as I like to go for my euros!
If you're not a member of All Swords on Facebook you should join, lots of makers there who can offer their services for sharpening, teaching yourself is also a great skill to learn. I learned as a kid in a blacksmith shop, forgot how to do it right, and have recently retaught on several cheaper fixed blades. I think the workshop (ken onion edition) is a great tool to help you be able to sharpen your own stuff.
Good luck!
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Post by MOK on Jul 24, 2019 19:57:51 GMT
Personally, for sharpening tools I'd recommend just a big single-cut mill file and a selection of sandpapers, especially for a beginner. They're a lot cheaper for one, and power tools also make it way too easy to seriously screw things up while you're learning.
It's not rocket science! Swords don't really need to be literally razor sharp, and plenty of historical soldiers and armorers actually preferred the slightly toothy edge left from using just the file (it might bite into yielding targets like clothing and skin a little more aggressively than an edge polished perfectly smooth, and what's more is much easier to maintain).
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Post by MOK on Jul 24, 2019 20:25:04 GMT
I'm talking about micro-serrations, here, too small to see, not saw-like edges like on a steak knife. PS. Although those do exist on some swords, too...
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Post by MOK on Jul 24, 2019 20:29:36 GMT
Of course, something that "bites" when you test it on your finger pad. Yeah, exactly. Arguably a rougher edge like that might cut a little more aggressively than a polished one, but also more messily so it's not what you'd want on tools like chisels and scalpels. PS. But of course polishing the bevels can still help reduce friction, so...
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Post by pvsampson on Jul 25, 2019 11:21:07 GMT
"The farther we go along the sharpness scale, the more delicate the edge becomes, and the more maintenance it requires in order to function properly"
This is actually spot on. There is a huge difference between what you guys are calling shaving sharp and actual razor shaving sharp.Arm hair cutting sharp is not razor sharp.An actual straight razor can suffer edge damage by cutting your face when using it. Even improper stropping can round the edge and damage it requiring a rehone,and the reason stropping is done after and before each use is done to realign the edge and smooth out the micro level damage caused by cutting the actual facial hair.Barbers used to keep hones in their pockets for touchups when the blades got a bit rough,and commonly used lather as a lubricant. Those old hones were usually around an 8,000 grit or similar.I use 0.25 micron paste on leather for final touch up before stropping,and that is equivalent to 100,000 grit.How many swords or axes are honed to that smooth? My guess would be very,very few if any as the edge would be too delicate for any functionality and the actual edge geometry would mean that using such high polishes would not achieve the desired result anyway.
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Post by MOK on Jul 25, 2019 12:16:54 GMT
"The farther we go along the sharpness scale, the more delicate the edge becomes, and the more maintenance it requires in order to function properly" This is actually spot on. There is a huge difference between what you guys are calling shaving sharp and actual razor shaving sharp.Arm hair cutting sharp is not razor sharp.An actual straight razor can suffer edge damage by cutting your face when using it. Even improper stropping can round the edge and damage it requiring a rehone,and the reason stropping is done after and before each use is done to realign the edge and smooth out the micro level damage caused by cutting the actual facial hair.Barbers used to keep hones in their pockets for touchups when the blades got a bit rough,and commonly used lather as a lubricant. Those old hones were usually around an 8,000 grit or similar.I use 0.25 micron paste on leather for final touch up before stropping,and that is equivalent to 100,000 grit.How many swords or axes are honed to that smooth? My guess would be very,very few if any as the edge would be too delicate for any functionality and the actual edge geometry would mean that using such high polishes would not achieve the desired result anyway. There are two different kinds of things commonly referred to as "sharpness": edge geometry, and edge polish. Geometry involves the angle the edges meet at and the shape of the bevels behind them. A more acute edge angle is "sharper" in this sense, but also more delicate because it has less material backing it up and helping it resist deformation. Razors are very acute, axes relatively obtuse, and swords and tool knives are somewhere in the middle (very generally speaking). Polish is simply how smooth the very edge and the surfaces around it are - which makes the blade effectively "sharper" in a functional sense because smoother surfaces move through the target with less friction - and has no direct effect on structural integrity. The actual difference between a razor and a sword is not in the polish but in the geometry: razors have wafer thin blades with edge bevels that meet at an extremely acute angle, and that's what makes them fragile, not the level of polish (which is what 800+ grit abrasives are all about).
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Post by pvsampson on Jul 25, 2019 19:51:03 GMT
"The farther we go along the sharpness scale, the more delicate the edge becomes, and the more maintenance it requires in order to function properly" This is actually spot on. There is a huge difference between what you guys are calling shaving sharp and actual razor shaving sharp.Arm hair cutting sharp is not razor sharp.An actual straight razor can suffer edge damage by cutting your face when using it. Even improper stropping can round the edge and damage it requiring a rehone,and the reason stropping is done after and before each use is done to realign the edge and smooth out the micro level damage caused by cutting the actual facial hair.Barbers used to keep hones in their pockets for touchups when the blades got a bit rough,and commonly used lather as a lubricant. Those old hones were usually around an 8,000 grit or similar.I use 0.25 micron paste on leather for final touch up before stropping,and that is equivalent to 100,000 grit.How many swords or axes are honed to that smooth? My guess would be very,very few if any as the edge would be too delicate for any functionality and the actual edge geometry would mean that using such high polishes would not achieve the desired result anyway. Nobody is talking about face shaving or straight razors though. This is now the second time I have seen you bring this up in a sword sharpness discussion. many times the term razor sharp was mentioned in this thread. Many times in this forum I see subjects reiterated again and again.Twice over several months is not many. The angle is everything yes.But,when honing to extremely sharp the terminology used is polishing as the grits are so fine and I should have clarified that. The subject was about sharpness and then came how damage can occur to certain edges when taken to a different levels.I commented regarding that If analogies are not permitted here then I apologise.
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Post by pvsampson on Jul 25, 2019 23:49:18 GMT
many times the term razor sharp was mentioned in this thread. Many times in this forum I see subjects reiterated again and again.Twice over several months is not many. The angle is everything yes.But,when honing to extremely sharp the terminology used is polishing as the grits are so fine and I should have clarified that. The subject was about sharpness and then came how damage can occur to certain edges when taken to a different levels.I commented regarding that If analogies are not permitted here then I apologise. All good, It's just that I am almost positive that when people refer to "Razor sharp" they aren't referring to an actual razor. I am also almost positive that when a statement is made about a hypothetical "fine edge" being delicate, They aren't referring to a thinner more fragile geometry. I believe they are INCORRECTLY referring to the actual sharpness. They are not familiar with just how sharp an axe or cleaver can be. To the average person, a hair popping edge on an axe would be ming-boggling. They might then think that the " fine edge" on said axe would be delicate when it's far from that. I just think these things are misleading. It might also encourage a slew of BS from manufacturers that will not ship their swords as sharp as they should because they will cite this "Delicate edge" commentary. I could see it now. "Sword shipped with a BATTLE READY EDGE as to withstand the rigors of combat! Not that fine, delicate edge on a kitchen knife" So that they can ship a sword with a garbage level of sharpness. In Fact, I KNOW that they do this kind of stuff and that they use that sort of mentality to explain away the mediocre edges. No problems here mate.The article that was linked states that damage can occur.So there is a point that renders any extreme sharpening/polishing a bit of a waste of time depending on the edge geometry.Can a sword blade be polished to 8,000 grit? Absolutely,but the edge will suffer,at the very least,micro bevel damage every time it is used and will require high maintenance. A sword or axe honed with a 1,000 stone or 1,200 grit paper on a block would be plenty sharp,a quick strop to even out the micro burrs and you have a very functional edge that will require the occasional touch up.
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Post by leviathansteak on Jul 26, 2019 0:52:43 GMT
Nobody is talking about face shaving or straight razors though. This is now the second time I have seen you bring this up in a sword sharpness discussion. many times the term razor sharp was mentioned in this thread. Many times in this forum I see subjects reiterated again and again.Twice over several months is not many. The angle is everything yes.But,when honing to extremely sharp the terminology used is polishing as the grits are so fine and I should have clarified that. The subject was about sharpness and then came how damage can occur to certain edges when taken to a different levels.I commented regarding that If analogies are not permitted here then I apologise. I remember your informative post in the other thread some time ago. I acknowledge the difference in edge between an actual razor and a sword but still use the term shaving sharp to describe a sword edge that can take off arm hairs. It's just easier.. since mostly swords are discussed on this forum i figure people will know what i mean. If we were on a straight razor forum however it would be different i guess
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Post by Jordan Williams on Jul 26, 2019 6:11:18 GMT
I have seen reference to "shaving sharp" as a particularly impressive standard of sharpness amongst British officers in the Anglo Indian wars, and the Sudanese kaskara was quoted as being kept " hair shaving sharp" as well.
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pgandy
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Senior Forumite
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Post by pgandy on Jul 26, 2019 19:10:29 GMT
If a sword is sufficiently sharp to remove hair I see no problem stating as such. I’ve seen the term "shaving sharp" used many times and in several places over the years and not restrict to our member’s useage. Shaving sharp is just that and I see no reason to restrict such a term to only certain areas. I’ve managed to separate the sword and razor as subjects and know which one is talking about, as I think others have also. As for my razor (stairght) it shaves also, but designed for a specific area and has a different shape. My swords and knives do not have a blade that is conducive to adjusting to my face so I do not use them for facial hair. As for the rest of me, I am somewhat bald as I test my edges by shaving and at near 80 I’m shaving the hair off faster than I can grow it. The facial hair continues to grow back and is waiting there the next day. However with the present colouring is not as obvious as it once was.
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Post by Lancelot Chan on Jul 26, 2019 19:58:14 GMT
I used to keep my swords at 8000 grit polish. ;)
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