Zen_Hydra
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Post by Zen_Hydra on Apr 15, 2019 16:15:52 GMT
I've been working up some details on a couple of custom swords I plan to commission (in honor of the upcoming release of a new Samurai Shodown/Spirits game from SNK), and it got me wondering if the differing styles of hamon offered anything other than cosmetic changes.
For instance, is a suguha hamon more likely to break off at the linear transition point than a notare, midare, or other patterned hamon might?
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Post by Verity on Apr 15, 2019 16:38:54 GMT
Wait there is a new Samurai Spirits coming?!?!?
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Zen_Hydra
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Born with a heart full of neutrality
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Post by Zen_Hydra on Apr 15, 2019 16:47:53 GMT
Wait there is a new Samurai Spirits coming?!?!? Yes
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Post by Verity on Apr 15, 2019 16:49:19 GMT
O.... M.... G.....
🤤🤤🤤🤤🤤🤤
You sir, have just made my day.
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Zen_Hydra
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Born with a heart full of neutrality
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Post by Zen_Hydra on Apr 15, 2019 16:55:37 GMT
The best part is that you found out about it with only a couple months wait until its release.
I've heard a lot of good talk from those in the fighting game community who have played early builds of it. Mechanically, it seems to be sticking to its roots.
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Post by Silent on Apr 15, 2019 16:57:33 GMT
In theory more regular hamons (suguha) provides a more homogeneous edge hardness.
But this all depends on maker, does it rly makes a diference? Dont rly know....
But makes some sense, having same hardness in all the edge/hamon line provides better results.
Cya
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Post by Verity on Apr 15, 2019 17:01:30 GMT
Back to the topic at hand,
Long topic, but in short. Yes.
Noie vs nie based blades had some crystalline and structure differences.
The pattern itself a little less so but had some material effect. Koto blades typically had less wide hamon with less flair to give the blade more of the softer and durable steel than the harder edge stuff.
You get into Edo where it was all about status and fighting was more rare you get the ridiculously flamboyant choji and hitatsura all over the place.
All things being equal, a suguha vs a notare would have very little difference or it would be negligible if the same volume of steel was hardened in proportion to the whole blade AND there were no flaws or microcracks in the quench.
Choji vs notare vs midare vs suguha are all neglible difference from a strength standpoint IF all other things are equal. It's cosmetic.
However in practice you generally would get other things happening as variables as the hamon got more advanced. Clay thickness differences that inevitably made blades have less consistencies.
A big reason the Ichimonji school was so sought after (and still is) was that their blades achieved extreme flamboyance and beauty in the hamon but the blades were of supreme quality as any Bizen blade.
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Post by randomnobody on Apr 15, 2019 17:09:51 GMT
I definitely remember reading a few accounts proclaiming that a narrow suguha generally made for better cutters, and wider hamon tended to make a brittle sword, for reasons Verity mentioned.
I do imagine style is less important than size and depth, but regularity grants predictability...generally.
There's also the matter of how close to the edge the hamon gets. Regardless of how tall its peaks are, if the valleys drop off the edge, the sword is no good. This may not be an immediate thing, but give it a few polishes and it could easily be.
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Post by Verity on Apr 15, 2019 19:32:19 GMT
My personal favorites are a nice choji-midare or gunome...
But I like the chatter in the above types and usually those types tend to yield ashi and utsuri in more abundance which I personally like.
Not that you can't get lots of ashi and utsuri in other cases too.
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Post by randomnobody on Apr 16, 2019 0:20:45 GMT
I personally prefer suguha, because it's just how I like things: straight and to the point. I've seen some crazy hamon, though, many of which I was able to appreciate in some way.
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Post by zabazagobo on Apr 16, 2019 7:46:03 GMT
My personal favorites are a nice choji-midare or gunome... But I like the chatter in the above types and usually those types tend to yield ashi and utsuri in more abundance which I personally like. Not that you can't get lots of ashi and utsuri in other cases too. Yep, those are the superior styles...at least to my eye
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Post by zabazagobo on Apr 16, 2019 7:51:34 GMT
My understanding is pretty much the same as Verity and Random have mentioned.
I recall a rule of thumb that the hamon ideally shouldn't exceed 1/3 of the blade width, otherwise the sword risks being a little too hard and breakable. I also recall some hearsay that an uneven pattern lends itself to protection against cracking, since the hard and soft parts of the blade flow together more...less sure about that theory. I've also heard the theory that a sugaha is associated with utilitarian blades, and that anything fancy is more for style. Like Verity noted, other variables such as how the clay was applied and what sort of shenanigans unfold have a lot of sway over how the blade ends up performing.
Which gets me to thinking that an intricate hamon with lots of activity might be a sign of more complex metallurgical properties which could help strengthen the blade...but that's just an idea. Lots of rambling, little reason
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Post by Silent on Apr 16, 2019 8:20:59 GMT
I am not sure I think those different proprieties in choji type hamons makes blades more pronning to breakage. We should ask a steel expert that could clarify this.
But rly if you hit something that would damage a sword edge it will happen in any type of hamon, most likely.
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Post by john1 on Apr 19, 2019 0:44:06 GMT
According to the Japanese texts on the subject, the wavy Hamon was a technological advance, developed after the Mongolian invasion and is superior to the straight hamon mechanically. Apparently, when the blade edge got damaged in battle, sometimes a crack would propagate along the Hamon line - stripping big areas of hardened steel off the edge of a blade. The wavy hamon helped prevent this by: 1. Providing - stronger mechanical lock between the hard and soft steels, simply by providing more surface area for the bond. 2. Making it harder for a crack to propagate, simply by making the line between the hard and soft steels bend up and down. I found this very interesting, because I’d assumed that “theoretically” taller areas of a wavy hamon would cause stress points that the blade would fracture along easier than if the blade had a straight hamon. I was so surprised that I did a LOT of research to validate this wasn’t one persons view — and found this conclusion in lots of Japanese texts on sword design. Gotta love real world testing — Beats theory and well reasoned arguments every time
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Post by zabazagobo on Apr 19, 2019 3:52:03 GMT
According to the Japanese texts on the subject, the wavy Hamon was a technological advance, developed after the Mongolian invasion and is superior to the straight hamon mechanically. Apparently, when the blade edge got damaged in battle, sometimes a crack would propagate along the Hamon line - stripping big areas of hardened steel off the edge of a blade. The wavy hamon helped prevent this by: 1. Providing - stronger mechanical lock between the hard and soft steels, simply by providing more surface area for the bond. 2. Making it harder for a crack to propagate, simply by making the line between the hard and soft steels bend up and down. I found this very interesting, because I’d assumed that “theoretically” taller areas of a wavy hamon would cause stress points that the blade would fracture along easier than if the blade had a straight hamon. I was so surprised that I did a LOT of research to validate this wasn’t one persons view — and found this conclusion in lots of Japanese texts on sword design. Gotta love real world testing — Beats theory and well reasoned arguments every time Sweet, so my memory wasn't playing tricks on me then. Anything you can link to for revisiting the subject?
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Post by randomnobody on Apr 19, 2019 12:59:55 GMT
Hmm, interesting. Runs opposite to the few things I've personally read, but then I've not read very much at all on the subject. Perhaps there was some bias in the few things I did read?
Also curious for some source material, if you can share.
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Post by Silent on Apr 19, 2019 13:20:19 GMT
I am not sure this old theory applys in modern mono steels.
But nice find...=)
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Post by randomnobody on Apr 19, 2019 13:53:10 GMT
I wonder if it would? Probably not, but might it with folded or laminated blades? Or is it merely due to the raw material?
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AndiTheBarvarian
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Apr 19, 2019 19:52:55 GMT
No quotable sources too, sorry.
But afaik traditional tamahagane is more brittle than modern steel if quenched to high hardness.
Also the quenching process of a katana with first the concave and then the convex bending produces an immense stress in the edge.
Perhaps a stronger waving hamon helps with both problems.
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Post by vanna on Feb 14, 2020 22:38:27 GMT
In My opinion,
With regards about the suguha hamon It is mostly used in dual hardened spring steels such as 9260,5160,Mn65. Spring steel swords are tougher when they are thoroughly hardened without a hamon. The edge hardness on a DH spring steel sword is slightly harder but not enough to out weigh the strength benefit of a TH spring steel sword A 9260 TH sword can take a 90 to 110 degree lateral bend and spring back with no set in it. I doubt you could do that with a 9260 DT shugha hammon and it would be even less with a gunome or choji. I personalty think 5160 TH is the cats meow that is why most modern medieval style swords are made from it.
If you want something pretty and shinny then you'll want T10 DH.
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