|
Post by treeslicer on Feb 15, 2020 8:55:13 GMT
In My opinion,
With regards about the suguha hamon It is mostly used in dual hardened spring steels such as 9260,5160,Mn65. Spring steel swords are tougher when they are thoroughly hardened without a hamon. The edge hardness on a DH spring steel sword is slightly harder but not enough to out weigh the strength benefit of a TH spring steel sword A 9260 TH sword can take a 90 to 110 degree lateral bend and spring back with no set in it. I doubt you could do that with a 9260 DT shugha hammon and it would be even less with a gunome or choji. I personalty think 5160 TH is the cats meow that is why most modern medieval style swords are made from it.
If you want something pretty and shinny then you'll want T10 DH.
IMHO. DH folded is much prettier than T10/1095 flat forged. It might be more durable than fancy laminations, too. There may be more to shinto frangibility than wide, flashy hamon.
A hamon is only as durable as the steel under it. Some people might find Ohmura's conclusions about koto structure versus shinto interesting, and a bit disturbing, as they suggest that a Longquan "clay-tempered, folded steel, maru" blade might be closer to a koto nihonto than a makuri or kobuse laminated shinsakuto nihonto is. Wouldn't that be special?
|
|
reptaronice1
Member
Tell Me... Friend... When Did Saruman The Wise Abandon Reason For Madness?!
Posts: 2,360
|
Post by reptaronice1 on Feb 15, 2020 11:54:49 GMT
I like the common midare hamons on T10
|
|
reptaronice1
Member
Tell Me... Friend... When Did Saruman The Wise Abandon Reason For Madness?!
Posts: 2,360
|
Post by reptaronice1 on Feb 15, 2020 11:57:56 GMT
On a super micro scale it might be different but I don’t think with modern production your going to see any physical differences in performance from different hamons. So micro yes but functionally and something you need to worry about no
|
|
reptaronice1
Member
Tell Me... Friend... When Did Saruman The Wise Abandon Reason For Madness?!
Posts: 2,360
|
Post by reptaronice1 on Feb 15, 2020 11:59:32 GMT
I definitely remember reading a few accounts proclaiming that a narrow suguha generally made for better cutters, and wider hamon tended to make a brittle sword, for reasons Verity mentioned. I do imagine style is less important than size and depth, but regularity grants predictability...generally. There's also the matter of how close to the edge the hamon gets. Regardless of how tall its peaks are, if the valleys drop off the edge, the sword is no good. This may not be an immediate thing, but give it a few polishes and it could easily be. A narrow suguha would most likely keep the blade softer as well though
|
|
|
Post by randomnobody on Feb 15, 2020 14:37:54 GMT
A narrow suguha would most likely keep the blade softer as well though Not necessarily, but that may not be a bad thing, anyway.
|
|
|
Post by tensho on Feb 15, 2020 14:54:05 GMT
|
|
reptaronice1
Member
Tell Me... Friend... When Did Saruman The Wise Abandon Reason For Madness?!
Posts: 2,360
|
Post by reptaronice1 on Feb 15, 2020 15:06:30 GMT
A narrow suguha would most likely keep the blade softer as well though Not necessarily, but that may not be a bad thing, anyway. I’d think the wider one would be more brittle
|
|
|
Post by treeslicer on Feb 15, 2020 18:20:02 GMT
I've referred to Masahide's list before. IMHO, it's not nearly as well-known in the "backyard cutting" community as it should be.
|
|
|
Post by ambulocetus on Apr 1, 2020 1:30:08 GMT
The sword collector who introduced me to the subject said that the choji hamon was created so that if you got a chip during battle, it would be limited to the surrounding area and not propagate up the length of the blade. I don't know for certain if he was right, but he claimed to have seen severely battle damaged blades that had a saw-tooth appearance where the chips followed the pattern of the hamon. On a related note, the Hamon is three dimensional through the blade, and repeated polishing can change the appearance. Have a look here www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/effectofyakiire.html
|
|
reptaronice1
Member
Tell Me... Friend... When Did Saruman The Wise Abandon Reason For Madness?!
Posts: 2,360
|
Post by reptaronice1 on Apr 1, 2020 12:06:12 GMT
The sword collector who introduced me to the subject said that the choji hamon was created so that if you got a chip during battle, it would be limited to the surrounding area and not propagate up the length of the blade. I don't know for certain if he was right, but he claimed to have seen severely battle damaged blades that had a saw-tooth appearance where the chips followed the pattern of the hamon. On a related note, the Hamon is three dimensional through the blade, and repeated polishing can change the appearance. Have a look here www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/effectofyakiire.htmlIt could be possible, would like to see a few stress tests on different hamon now XD. It is harder steel vs a softer spine so I could totally see the harder steels cracking or chipping in different forms of pattern.
|
|
|
Post by treeslicer on Apr 2, 2020 17:59:52 GMT
The sword collector who introduced me to the subject said that the choji hamon was created so that if you got a chip during battle, it would be limited to the surrounding area and not propagate up the length of the blade. I don't know for certain if he was right, but he claimed to have seen severely battle damaged blades that had a saw-tooth appearance where the chips followed the pattern of the hamon. On a related note, the Hamon is three dimensional through the blade, and repeated polishing can change the appearance. Have a look here www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/effectofyakiire.htmlIt could be possible, would like to see a few stress tests on different hamon now XD. It is harder steel vs a softer spine so I could totally see the harder steels cracking or chipping in different forms of pattern. Easily arranged, like I told Zabazagobo in the gunto review thread. Borrow some armor from Rufus or Christain and come a little closer....
|
|
reptaronice1
Member
Tell Me... Friend... When Did Saruman The Wise Abandon Reason For Madness?!
Posts: 2,360
|
Post by reptaronice1 on Apr 3, 2020 5:55:53 GMT
It could be possible, would like to see a few stress tests on different hamon now XD. It is harder steel vs a softer spine so I could totally see the harder steels cracking or chipping in different forms of pattern. Easily arranged, like I told Zabazagobo in the gunto review thread. Borrow some armor from Rufus or Christain and come a little closer.... To show you the power of flex tape! I sawed this katana in half!
|
|
|
Post by jayotterstein on Apr 9, 2020 17:27:20 GMT
Nakamura Taisaburo mentions in the book "The Spirit of the Sword" the depth of the hamon being most important. Around 1/3 of the width of the blade. Wider and the sword was too brittle, too narrow and it was too soft. I can't recall if he mentions specific hamon styles having better properties than others, but he definitely stuck to the width of it being important. I believe he cited some references of swords breaking or bending during cutting due to overly wide or too thin of a hamon.
|
|
|
Post by treeslicer on Apr 10, 2020 6:50:34 GMT
Nakamura Taisaburo mentions in the book "The Spirit of the Sword" the depth of the hamon being most important. Around 1/3 of the width of the blade. Wider and the sword was too brittle, too narrow and it was too soft. I can't recall if he mentions specific hamon styles having better properties than others, but he definitely stuck to the width of it being important. I believe he cited some references of swords breaking or bending during cutting due to overly wide or too thin of a hamon. Nakamura sensei's recommendations (hamon between 1/4 and 1/3 of blade width, and "not flowery", i. e., he prefers suguha to choji) need to be read in context, as part of his criticisms of "art-swords", which in turn were part of his general criticism of the directions taken by the JSA community since WW II. Please forgive me hijacking the thread at this point, but I wish to explain some things peculiar to Nakamura's book that I feel that those using it need to know.
Nakamura sensei's Nihonto Tameshigiri no Shinzui, AKA The Spirit of the Sword in a fairly good English translation by Gavin Poffley, is possibly the best one-volume guide to practical katana use currently available, but it was written for a strictly Japanese audience, and is to a great extent as much a conservative political tract as a martial arts textbook. The title itself, besides meaning "essence of nihonto test-cutting", is also a vernacular pun for "Japan's real test". Much of the book towards both the beginning and the end is devoted to Nakamura's criticisms about the directions that JSA organizations, teaching methods/content, and sword smithing had taken since WW II, from the POV of an unrepentant Japanese redneck nationalist IJA veteran sword instructor (i.e., basically, the pinko hippies have taken over and it's all gone to Hell). While he metaphorically bows to the joseki by giving some lip-service to the koryu, as transmitters of tradition, he makes it plain that he considers most of them (MJER in particular, if you read between the lines) as degenerate and obsolete, and sees kendo as a mere sport whose practices are dangerous to mix with using a shinken (e. g., the anecdote about the experienced kendoka who sliced himself in the gonads while trying to kill a Chinese with his gunto).
Besides his (typically old-fashioned Japanese) mannerly rants, the book contains expositions of his own "happo-giri" ("eight cuts", but actually including eight kamae and eight noto as well, to be mixed and matched as necessary) system. He basically founds a new Nakamura ryu and sets himself up as soke. His personal revision of Toyama-ryu gunto no soho is included as well. Be it noted well, these methods constitute a new departure for JSA overall:
1} All seiza and tatehiza forms are eliminated, everything is performed from tachi (standing).
2) Furikaburi is usually followed by kesagiri, NOT kirioroshi as in conventional iaido and kendo.
3) "Iaido" is replaced with "battojutsu". This is not only a sign that "the gloves are off", but also a rejection of the postwar emphasis on philosophic symbolism over practical employment. Nakamura's system is neither "sword dancing" nor an alternative to yoga. It's a fighting skill.
4) Kumitachi live-blade exercises are included. So much for kendo, though many readers don't recognize this intent.
5) Tameshigiri is integrated as a core part of the discipline.
6) In place of a long collection of kata, Nakamura-ryu Battojutsu substitutes eight single kata and seven kumitachi kata.
It certainly appears to me that Nakamura was offering his practical innovations as a complete replacement for JSA as they stood at the time that he wrote the original book in 1980.
In summary, Nihonto Tameshigiri no Shinzui is both a one-volume distillation of what Nakamura considered essential to using the katana as a weapon, as well as a well-reasoned political apology for starting up his own ryu from scratch. Like many another manifesto, it's dangerous to quote from randomly or out of context. He does get a few things wrong (IMHO, for instance, he misunderstands the Niten Ichi-ryū school of Musashi completely, though he's certainly not alone in this), as, occasionally so does the translator in the English version.
My personal views on the book are mostly positive, and best expressed by the fact that my once new copy is hellaciously dog-eared and written in.
|
|
|
Post by jayotterstein on Apr 13, 2020 15:12:36 GMT
Nakamura Taisaburo mentions in the book "The Spirit of the Sword" the depth of the hamon being most important. Around 1/3 of the width of the blade. Wider and the sword was too brittle, too narrow and it was too soft. I can't recall if he mentions specific hamon styles having better properties than others, but he definitely stuck to the width of it being important. I believe he cited some references of swords breaking or bending during cutting due to overly wide or too thin of a hamon. Nakamura sensei's recommendations (hamon between 1/4 and 1/3 of blade width, and "not flowery", i. e., he prefers suguha to choji) need to be read in context, as part of his criticisms of "art-swords", which in turn were part of his general criticism of the directions taken by the JSA community since WW II. Please forgive me hijacking the thread at this point, but I wish to explain some things peculiar to Nakamura's book that I feel that those using it need to know.
Nakamura sensei's Nihonto Tameshigiri no Shinzui, AKA The Spirit of the Sword in a fairly good English translation by Gavin Poffley, is possibly the best one-volume guide to practical katana use currently available, but it was written for a strictly Japanese audience, and is to a great extent as much a conservative political tract as a martial arts textbook. The title itself, besides meaning "essence of nihonto test-cutting", is also a vernacular pun for "Japan's real test". Much of the book towards both the beginning and the end is devoted to Nakamura's criticisms about the directions that JSA organizations, teaching methods/content, and sword smithing had taken since WW II, from the POV of an unrepentant Japanese redneck nationalist IJA veteran sword instructor (i.e., basically, the pinko hippies have taken over and it's all gone to Hell). While he metaphorically bows to the joseki by giving some lip-service to the koryu, as transmitters of tradition, he makes it plain that he considers most of them (MJER in particular, if you read between the lines) as degenerate and obsolete, and sees kendo as a mere sport whose practices are dangerous to mix with using a shinken (e. g., the anecdote about the experienced kendoka who sliced himself in the gonads while trying to kill a Chinese with his gunto).
Besides his (typically old-fashioned Japanese) mannerly rants, the book contains expositions of his own "happo-giri" ("eight cuts", but actually including eight kamae and eight noto as well, to be mixed and matched as necessary) system. He basically founds a new Nakamura ryu and sets himself up as soke. His personal revision of Toyama-ryu gunto no soho is included as well. Be it noted well, these methods constitute a new departure for JSA overall:
1} All seiza and tatehiza forms are eliminated, everything is performed from tachi (standing).
2) Furikaburi is usually followed by kesagiri, NOT kirioroshi as in conventional iaido and kendo.
3) "Iaido" is replaced with "battojutsu". This is not only a sign that "the gloves are off", but also a rejection of the postwar emphasis on philosophic symbolism over practical employment. Nakamura's system is neither "sword dancing" nor an alternative to yoga. It's a fighting skill.
4) Kumitachi live-blade exercises are included. So much for kendo, though many readers don't recognize this intent.
5) Tameshigiri is integrated as a core part of the discipline.
6) In place of a long collection of kata, Nakamura-ryu Battojutsu substitutes eight single kata and seven kumitachi kata.
It certainly appears to me that Nakamura was offering his practical innovations as a complete replacement for JSA as they stood at the time that he wrote the original book in 1980.
In summary, Nihonto Tameshigiri no Shinzui is both a one-volume distillation of what Nakamura considered essential to using the katana as a weapon, as well as a well-reasoned political apology for starting up his own ryu from scratch. Like many another manifesto, it's dangerous to quote from randomly or out of context. He does get a few things wrong (IMHO, for instance, he misunderstands the Niten Ichi-ryū school of Musashi completely, though he's certainly not alone in this), as, occasionally so does the translator in the English version.
My personal views on the book are mostly positive, and best expressed by the fact that my once new copy is hellaciously dog-eared and written in.
Nakamura's nationalism, his disdain for "traditional" Iai , or his development of his own system while certainly interesting points to make, have nothing to do with the fact he talks of purchasing many swords over the years and testing them and formulating conclusions based on his actual usage of said swords. Hamon size being one of them. And while he had dislike for "Art Swords", that was rooted in his study of practical martial sword training and using swords for that. The question was, "Is there any mechanical advantage to hamon styles?" So I'm not sure there is any contextual explanation required for Nakamura testing swords and coming to a conclusion on what hamon depth is best or what style of hamon he prefers. The Hagakure contains a plethora of the Feudal Japanese Samurai equivalent of "Back in my day we had to walk uphill both ways barefoot in the snow..." boastings and ramblings, but there is also plenty of valuable information well. Not unlike Nakamura's book.
|
|
|
Post by junesbanunes on Apr 14, 2020 10:15:11 GMT
My own readings confirm what's already been stated. I've heard that activity within the hamon, such as ashi, help as barriers to limit the affected area if the blade was to chip or crack.
But I've also read a lot of expert sources that a narrow suguha is the most durable type. For example Otake Risuke of Katori Shinto Ryu writes in his book Warrior Tradition:
"Swords with very large and coarse nie and a temper line close to the shinogi may look pretty, but they are highly prone to breakage. [...] For a truly "practical sword" the ideal specifications are a prevalence of nioi and a straight temper line as well as a shorter tip; this results in a more durable sword that can withstand use in engagements."
As this is the tradition of a school from the times where swords were actually used in battle it seems to me to be a very reliable source. However I'd love to see this scientifically tested, especially a comparison between traditional folded and laminated tamahagane vs modern monosteel.
|
|
|
Post by jayotterstein on Apr 17, 2020 13:36:42 GMT
My own readings confirm what's already been stated. I've heard that activity within the hamon, such as ashi, help as barriers to limit the affected area if the blade was to chip or crack. But I've also read a lot of expert sources that a narrow suguha is the most durable type. For example Otake Risuke of Katori Shinto Ryu writes in his book Warrior Tradition: "Swords with very large and coarse nie and a temper line close to the shinogi may look pretty, but they are highly prone to breakage. [...] For a truly "practical sword" the ideal specifications are a prevalence of nioi and a straight temper line as well as a shorter tip; this results in a more durable sword that can withstand use in engagements." As this is the tradition of a school from the times where swords were actually used in battle it seems to me to be a very reliable source. However I'd love to see this scientifically tested, especially a comparison between traditional folded and laminated tamahagane vs modern monosteel. It would be nice to get a controlled experiment around that. You'd have to produce swords specifically for the testing though, assuring proper heat treatment, constructions, etc. Outside of that, I think the best we can hope for is first hand experience of using many different swords and the general results.
|
|