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Post by viece on Mar 27, 2019 22:05:53 GMT
Just got this M1850 US infantry officer's sword dated 1874. Overall it feels real, the patina looks real in most places, the leather washer looks genuinely aged. And I don't see the point of doing an aged fake of such a common sword; the whole point is that it was very reasonable.
But then again, there are grind marks that continue across the underside of the pommel and across the horn grip under the wire, like it the grip was ground in place. Was that an actual 19th-century manufacturing practice? Also, there are some areas on the brass where there's no patina at all, not even in the crevices of the decoration. I'm 80% certain that was just from an uneven cleaning in the past, but would appreciate hearing from SBG members.
Thanks for your insights.
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Post by viece on Mar 27, 2019 22:06:16 GMT
Dammit, pix didn't attach. Will try again.
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Post by viece on Mar 27, 2019 22:22:44 GMT
Ok, here are a few pictures of the whole thing, hilt details, maker's mark (HD?) and date. Thoughts? Thanks all!
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Post by Jordan Williams on Mar 27, 2019 22:32:21 GMT
I'm not so sure it's an M1850. Does it Have any engraving? It looks like a pretty standard French M1845 to me. How much did you pay for it?
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Post by viece on Mar 27, 2019 22:40:16 GMT
I'm not so sure it's an M1850. Does it Have any engraving? It looks like a pretty standard French M1845 to me. How much did you pay for it? Jordan, No engraving at all. Interesting. It was listed as a model 1850. I am still relatively new to this so didn't question that, just liked the look of it. I hate to discuss exact numbers but as I google around it was less than those I see for sale elsewhere. Did the M1845s have horn grips?
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Post by Jordan Williams on Mar 27, 2019 23:09:27 GMT
I'm not so sure it's an M1850. Does it Have any engraving? It looks like a pretty standard French M1845 to me. How much did you pay for it? Jordan, No engraving at all. Interesting. It was listed as a model 1850. I am still relatively new to this so didn't question that, just liked the look of it. I hate to discuss exact numbers but as I google around it was less than those I see for sale elsewhere. Did the M1845s have horn grips? Yes, The 1845 had horn grips and also that little flat section by the pommel. I would tag it as a French 1845. Still, a nice enough sword and a pretty cool price of 19th century sword engineering.
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Post by viece on Mar 27, 2019 23:37:57 GMT
An interesting and pleasant surprise then. So a genuine antique French 1845 you think? Do you have any experience with French markings like this HD with a crown?
It does feel solid and well-made and I've enjoyed playing with it already; I just had a nagging worry about some of the cast ornamentation on the brass. Glad I asked.
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Post by Dave Kelly on Mar 28, 2019 0:27:01 GMT
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Post by Jordan Williams on Mar 28, 2019 0:32:38 GMT
Interesting - good catch! Dave is correct.
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Post by elbrittania39 on Mar 28, 2019 0:53:42 GMT
Good catch indeed. I wonder if that raises the value?
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Post by viece on Mar 28, 2019 1:33:21 GMT
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Post by viece on Mar 28, 2019 1:36:00 GMT
Good catch indeed. I wonder if that raises the value? Well of course. For just $1,999 it can be yours. Kidding, I'm keeping it.
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Post by pellius on Mar 28, 2019 1:48:32 GMT
Very cool sword.
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Post by viece on Mar 28, 2019 13:23:28 GMT
Thanks all. Here's an update: I was just cleaning the storage/shipping oil, etc off it and gently waxing with microfiber cloth, and now the hilt and grip are slightly loose. It was sold to me as completely tight and solid, and seemed to be when I got it. But when I held it by the blade and went around the guard, etc with a cloth, I loosened it. I was being super-careful, I swear. Godd@mm!t. This is now 3 antiques I have with looseness in the hilt.
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Post by elbrittania39 on Mar 28, 2019 13:48:03 GMT
Thanks all. Here's an update: I was just cleaning the storage/shipping oil, etc off it and gently waxing with microfiber cloth, and now the hilt and grip are slightly loose. It was sold to me as completely tight and solid, and seemed to be when I got it. But when I held it by the blade and went around the guard, etc with a cloth, I loosened it. I was being super-careful, I swear. Godd@mm!t. This is now 3 antiques I have with looseness in the hilt. I've had some antiques that have gone both ways, tightening and loosening for no apparent reason after receiveing. I think it can have something to do with the temperature and humidity its being stored at suddenly changing. There are several things you can do to fix this however. First off, does it still have a leather washer between the shoulders of the blade and the hilt? If it has rotted away, simply slotting on a new one usually does the job. If that doesnt work, you can try wedging some copper shims into the blade gap. The nice things about these methods is you arent really altering the sword with something not original. You can always remove the washer or shims at a later time if you so desire.
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Post by viece on Mar 28, 2019 14:15:31 GMT
Thanks all. Here's an update: I was just cleaning the storage/shipping oil, etc off it and gently waxing with microfiber cloth, and now the hilt and grip are slightly loose. It was sold to me as completely tight and solid, and seemed to be when I got it. But when I held it by the blade and went around the guard, etc with a cloth, I loosened it. I was being super-careful, I swear. Godd@mm!t. This is now 3 antiques I have with looseness in the hilt. I've had some antiques that have gone both ways, tightening and loosening for no apparent reason after receiveing. I think it can have something to do with the temperature and humidity its being stored at suddenly changing. There are several things you can do to fix this however. First off, does it still have a leather washer between the shoulders of the blade and the hilt? If it has rotted away, simply slotting on a new one usually does the job. If that doesnt work, you can try wedging some copper shims into the blade gap. The nice things about these methods is you arent really altering the sword with something not original. You can always remove the washer or shims at a later time if you so desire. Good point. In this case the leather washer is there and in quite good shape. The looseness seems to extend throughout all components; the grip is slightly loose on the tang and relative to the pommel, the knucklebow is loose where it inserts in the pommel, and I think I can see the slightest movement in the pommel around the iron peen button. I am thinking some combo of epoxy via syringe plus thin shims, though I'm not sure where I would even put shims; the gaps are paper thin.
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Uhlan
Member
Posts: 3,121
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Post by Uhlan on Mar 31, 2019 20:14:36 GMT
Nice catch! Movement happens a lot and is mostly, as already suggested, a matter of temperature and humidity. Be careful with the horn grip as it could crack when the pressure is too much. So the horn grip has been shrinking a bit. Make copper shims: Do you have any old copper coins? Cut a strip from it. If no other way, take the chissel and hammer. Heat the little strip and hammer it flat on one side. It must be thin enough that just one side easely fits into the space between the blade and the guard. I prefer two wedges or shims as two will centre the blade just right. When the shims are stuck a bit in the opening, take some piece of wood, small, to place on the shim and than hammer on the wood. Better this way as you keep the hammer away from the blade. Now slowly with little taps hammer the shim home. This is the ,, antique '' way. My French M1845 lost two oak shims when I got it home. Those had been sitting there for maybe a hundred years. Another way is to shim under the blade shoulders. Make a shim as above but now fitted for the narrowest gap of the two. Again use a little piece of wood as go between. Run to Home Depot or some such outlet and get yourself this clay like plyable epoxy based metal stuff. I forget the name but it is in the glue section over here. I think 3M and six nuggets per pack. Use a bit of this stuff under the blade shoulder gap that was left open. First clean the spot very well with acetone! This epoxy metal stuff can be worked like clay so you can form it so that nothing sticks out. Also, this stuff will adhere totally and wont drop out like shims do over time. Once the epoxy metal clay is hardened on one side, remove the copper shim and repeat. What I do afterwards is covering the hard metal clay with superglue and cover that with some very fine metal dust. Now it looks like a dirty blade. As old blades tend to look right near old washers. You blade will go BOING instead of ...well you know. I hope this helps a bit. You can ,,see'' me do it in, I think, my Swedish cavalry sabre M1814 thread. If you have problems just PM me. I am glad to help anyone out if I can.
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Post by elbrittania39 on Mar 31, 2019 20:26:58 GMT
Nice catch! Movement happens a lot and is mostly, as already suggested, a matter of temperature and humidity. Be careful with the horn grip as it could crack when the pressure is too much. So the horn grip has been shrinking a bit. Make copper shims: Do you have any old copper coins? Cut a strip from it. If no other way, take the chissel and hammer. Heat the little strip and hammer it flat on one side. It must be thin enough that just one side easely fits into the space between the blade and the guard. I prefer two wedges or shims as two will centre the blade just right. When the shims are stuck a bit in the opening, take some piece of wood, small, to place on the shim and than hammer on the wood. Better this way as you keep the hammer away from the blade. Now slowly with little taps hammer the shim home. This is the ,, antique '' way. My French M1845 lost two oak shims when I got it home. Those had been sitting there for maybe a hundred years. Another way is to shim under the blade shoulders. Make a shim as above but now fitted for the narrowest gap of the two. Again use a little piece of wood as go between. Run to Home Depot or some such outlet and get yourself this clay like plyable epoxy based metal stuff. I forget the name but it is in the glue section over here. I think 3M and six nuggets per pack. Use a bit of this stuff under the blade shoulder gap that was left open. First clean the spot very well with acetone! This epoxy metal stuff can be worked like clay so you can form it so that nothing sticks out. Also, this stuff will adhere totally and wont drop out like shims do over time. Once the epoxy metal clay is hardened on one side, remove the copper shim and repeat. What I do afterwards is covering the hard metal clay with superglue and cover that with some very fine metal dust. Now it looks like a dirty blade. As old blades tend to look right near old washers. You blade will go BOING instead of ...well you know. I hope this helps a bit. You can ,,see'' me do it in, I think, my Swedish cavalry sabre M1814 thread. If you have problems just PM me. I am glad to help anyone out if I can. You should write a book on antique sword restoration. I'd buy it
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Post by viece on Mar 31, 2019 20:55:30 GMT
Nice catch! Movement happens a lot and is mostly, as already suggested, a matter of temperature and humidity. Be careful with the horn grip as it could crack when the pressure is too much. So the horn grip has been shrinking a bit. Make copper shims: Do you have any old copper coins? Cut a strip from it. If no other way, take the chissel and hammer. Heat the little strip and hammer it flat on one side. It must be thin enough that just one side easely fits into the space between the blade and the guard. I prefer two wedges or shims as two will centre the blade just right. When the shims are stuck a bit in the opening, take some piece of wood, small, to place on the shim and than hammer on the wood. Better this way as you keep the hammer away from the blade. Now slowly with little taps hammer the shim home. This is the ,, antique '' way. My French M1845 lost two oak shims when I got it home. Those had been sitting there for maybe a hundred years. Another way is to shim under the blade shoulders. Make a shim as above but now fitted for the narrowest gap of the two. Again use a little piece of wood as go between. Run to Home Depot or some such outlet and get yourself this clay like plyable epoxy based metal stuff. I forget the name but it is in the glue section over here. I think 3M and six nuggets per pack. Use a bit of this stuff under the blade shoulder gap that was left open. First clean the spot very well with acetone! This epoxy metal stuff can be worked like clay so you can form it so that nothing sticks out. Also, this stuff will adhere totally and wont drop out like shims do over time. Once the epoxy metal clay is hardened on one side, remove the copper shim and repeat. What I do afterwards is covering the hard metal clay with superglue and cover that with some very fine metal dust. Now it looks like a dirty blade. As old blades tend to look right near old washers. You blade will go BOING instead of ...well you know. I hope this helps a bit. You can ,,see'' me do it in, I think, my Swedish cavalry sabre M1814 thread. If you have problems just PM me. I am glad to help anyone out if I can. Thanks, Uhlan. Great primer on repairs. I second the suggestion that you write a book detailing such techniques!
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pgandy
Moderator
Senior Forumite
Posts: 10,296
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Post by pgandy on Mar 31, 2019 21:26:59 GMT
Uhlan is a master at restoration and one to listen to. However, FWTW I did a quick and dirty repair on one of my swords. It was a cutlass and after a while a very slight play developed in the grip that I eliminated surprisingly easy. I slid the washer out of the way and discovered a very small opening between the ricasso and guard, about the size of a pin head or smaller. Out of desperation I put Loctite 242 into this hole. This Loctite has a low surface tension and flows readily, faster than water. I have not experienced the click or play since. A word of warning is in order; I held the tip up griping the sword by its handle while I worked. I poured what I thought was an amazing amount of Loctite in, which wasn’t much as the tube is very small, and it was asking for more. Sensing something wrong I stopped and when I removed my hand it was full of blue Loctite as well as the external part of the grip was flooded. After a few bad words I grab paper towels and started wiping, in near panic stage. It cleaned off easily as I caught it before the 20 minute set up period. It wiped off of everything leaving no trace. I watched carefully for the next ½ hour and nothing more was observed after which I set the sword aside for a couple of hours and gave it a rather easy test and everything appeared tight. So I left it alone with no worry and gave it a good test the following morning and it past. That was months ago and I see no evidence of Loctite having been used and everything still tight, even after several cutting sessions.
An additional note if you decide to use Loctite: I don’t know if a couple of drops is best do the job or if it is best to flood the area as I accidentally did allowing the Locktite to flow into every crook, granny, and crevice and clean up the overflow. I suspect the later but in truth will probably vary with the sword. At any rate I suggest paper towels and a toothbrush to be on hand before attempting.
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