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Post by profkum on Nov 25, 2018 18:03:41 GMT
Hello forum dwellers!
I have a question regarding armor. Namely, what type of material should a reliable reenactment armor be made of? I recently visited a festival and there was a stage combat group performing and I talked to one of them and he said his armor is made of 17 gauge (1.3 mm) non-hardened carbon steel, while most of the group used gauge 16 (1.5 mm) sheet iron.
So my question is, would such armors be viable for reenactment? Should armor be quenched/hardened? These guys do stage combat, they basically swing in the air between them and clash swords. Their armor almost never gets hit since they stand quite a distance apart to avoid accidents if their blades do not meet in mid-air. I am more interested into reenactment quality armor so would much appreciate any advice any experienced warrior might have.
Thanks
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Nov 25, 2018 18:55:20 GMT
The armour would depend in part of the time period under consideration. Also as to what echelon warrior, are you talking about some serf pressed into action, a nobleman, man at arms, or?. Are you speaking of say an archer, musketeer, a mounted warrior, or? If you are talking plate armour this will vary depending on what part of the body. The head and chest is normally thicker than other parts for instance. Your question is not simple to answer.
Another thing to consider is the climate and your stammer and strength. Armour even a gambeson is hot and plate can be heavy so much can depend on your physical abilities.
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Post by profkum on Nov 25, 2018 19:38:50 GMT
I would like to get a Gothic full plate armor for full contact sparring. I live in a moderate climate with cold winters and hot summers and I am not too concerned about the weight since I am in a really good physical shape and train every day. I got a 2.5 mm (gauge 12) carbon steel helmet and my main issue is should my breastplate be the same thickness/material or are there other variables more suitable. I just want it to protect me  |
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Nov 25, 2018 20:31:14 GMT
The group that you plan to work with would be able to provide more accurate advice, possibly allow you to try some of their kit. I would say that 12 ga. will be more than adequate, if not excessive. My choice would be 14-16 ga. leaning towards the 16 ga., for a breast plate saving you more energy for combat and allow you to move faster. You will be facing blunted weapons and I’d concerned about adequate padding to absorb the impact.
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Post by profkum on Nov 25, 2018 21:04:03 GMT
Ok. Thanks for the info. Unfortunately, I am not joining any group since in my small town there are no opportunities for this, the nearest group is 300 km from me... That is why is asked a guy from a reenactment group, but he only listed types of armor they use, without being able to explain the difference between the materials.. Me and my friend want to buy armors for sparring, we started playing with swords a year ago and would like to try to make it more interesting  We will mostly use longswords, perhaps sometimes maces In any case, thank you for taking the time to answer and help me |
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Post by strigoil on Nov 25, 2018 21:20:33 GMT
The best thing you can do I think, is to directly contact a well reputed armorer and ask, usually they would know better than most, mind you a full set of gothic plate will need to fit you well and will set you back a whole lot of money and waiting time.
You simply can not buy reenactment grade off the shelf armor, sadly.
If you are going for a full gothic plate set, you would probably be wearing a doublet and mail under it, not something as padded as a gambeson, I would definitely go with hardened myself, if you intend to wail at eachother..If not for the reduced risk of being injured, the reduced risk of the armor being ruined and having to remove dents so much is enough to convince me.
ArmorySmith made a video showing off the difference between their mild steel and hardened spring steel helmets, of course he abuses it very hard as they are more HMB focused, but it gives a bit of an idea.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Nov 25, 2018 21:52:13 GMT
I got a 2.5 mm (gauge 12) carbon steel helmet and my main issue is should my breastplate be the same thickness/material or are there other variables more suitable. I just want it to protect me If you were going to be walking about on a battlefield with (sharp) arrows shot at you from 100+lb bows, then you would want a 2.5mm breastplate (mild steel would be OK, medium/high carbon steel would be better). But for reenactment fighting, you can get away with a much thinner breastplate. If you want to stay historical, 2.5mm is good. Thinner than 1.5mm or so mild steel will dent. Thicker can dent, too, if hit hard enough, but you're unlikely to be hit that hard in the breastplate. (I've seen dents in 1.6mm helmets.) A 1.5-1.6mm will be sufficiently dent-resistant, and lighter than a historical standalone breastplate (historical examples that thin were usually worn over mail, so if you want to wear it over mail, 1.6mm is dent-resistant and historical). Hardened and spring-tempered is much more dent resistant, so you could go thinner. The problem is arms and legs. Historically, these were thin, often 0.8-1mm. Arms and legs need to move around a lot, and you want to limit the weight you're carrying on them. Mild steel that thin dents easily. A lot of hard use re-enactment arms and legs are made very thick, about 1.5-1.6mm, and are dent-resistant, but much heavier than historical. Find an armourer who does hardened steel armour, and ask them how thin they trust on arms and legs. |
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Post by profkum on Nov 25, 2018 22:51:45 GMT
Thank you both. I know the armorer would be able to help me, I just wanted to get more informed in order to know in advance what to look for and ask for
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Nov 26, 2018 1:35:36 GMT
One thing to consider is the style of armour. Gothic has many folds and ridges giving extra strength so it is possible to go thinner with the same effect, more so than using something that is smooth and plain. As for a padding, mail won’t cut it. Mail is good for preventing lacerations and to some extent a piercing wound. Gambesons come in different thicknesses. You won’t need a battle grade under full plate. Even a light weight gambeson not only will absorb some shock but go a long way in making whatever you are wearing on top more comfortable by cushioning some of those pressure point areas. One advantage to plate is that it distributes the impact energy over a larger area lessening the felt impact. I find armour an interesting subject and it interests me as much as weapons, maybe a bit more.
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Post by strigoil on Nov 26, 2018 1:57:34 GMT
As Pgandy says you dont need a super thick arming garment, For a full gothic I believe a woolen or linen doublet would be more correct to history, provided you have the correct layering of course, doublets dont HAVE to be entirely unpadded but generally they are less so than a gambeson, and make sure whatever arming garments you do end up picking are well tailored, you dont want things riding up or restricting your movement already at the clothing later. historicenterprises.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=101_135&products_id=713This one has gotten a lot of praise and a lot of good reenactors use it for stuff like harnischfechten, I plan on getting one myself eventually, it's expensive but very well made- |
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Luka
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Post by Luka on Nov 26, 2018 14:21:28 GMT
Many Polish and Ukrainian armour smiths make good armour for fair prices. For limbs I would go 1mm hardened and joints like elbows or shoulders 1.5mm. Breastplate is the piece you will get least hits to, but I guess 1.5 or 1.6 just in case. Helmets 2mm minimum. I had a 1.6mm helmet non hardened for bohurt and it is quite smashed now. :) Helmet I recommend thick, but not hardened.
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Post by profkum on Nov 27, 2018 23:48:13 GMT
I have contacted several smiths and asked for a quote. I am most impressed by what I saw from the Ukrainian ArmorySmith. Luka, could you please recommend any Polish or Ukrainian smiths you mentioned? Thanks
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Post by strigoil on Nov 28, 2018 0:01:28 GMT
If you're considering going with ArmorySmith, here is a video of the arm harness I got from them and pictures of the helmet and gloves.
I intend to do a better video eventually.
My wait time went 4 months over but I suspect it was because of some confusion and changes to my order, partly my fault and partly theirs, also they had apparently not done gloves for fingered gauntlets before so they had to figure out the whole process.
Overall I would say their work is really nice, especially for their prices, I will recommend if you go for fingered gauntlets to get proper fitted leather gloves and put them in yourself, the linen gloves they made for me..While well crafted are fairly uncomfortable and don't fit my hands as well as the actual gauntlet, the gauntlet seems perfectly fitted to my hand but when the gloves aren't it hinders the entire range of movement.
Also never seen them do gothic gauntlets so that will be a new venture for them, as most ukranian smiths you won't be getting 100% reenactment level quality, but out of the ones I have seen ArmorySmith seems to do better than most if not all the eastern european workshops.
Everything I ordered fits perfectly and has a great range of movement however.
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Post by strigoil on Nov 28, 2018 0:06:21 GMT
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Luka
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Post by Luka on Nov 29, 2018 11:47:17 GMT
I have contacted several smiths and asked for a quote. I am most impressed by what I saw from the Ukrainian ArmorySmith. Luka, could you please recommend any Polish or Ukrainian smiths you mentioned? Thanks
I would recommend Adam Sokolinsky: www.facebook.com/adam.sokolinskiAndrey Galevskiy: www.facebook.com/andrey.galevskyi?ref=br_rsMichael Zavatskiy: www.facebook.com/michael.zavatskiyI have armour from all of them and I would recommend any of them. Adam is maybe even the cheapest, but not any worse in quality and I know him in person so I would definitely recommend him first. His armour is very well hardened so it isn't thick and it's easy and comfortable to wear. I use his coat of plates and plate arms for bohurt. Michael has excellent mail armour, well riveted, good rings, not crappy indian mail... Both Michael and Andrey make great plate specialized for bohurt. |
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Post by profkum on Nov 29, 2018 23:25:21 GMT
Thanks strigoil for the video. That armor looks very nice. I already have gauntlets, made to measure and a helmet but it is basically for display only I browsed trough some of recommended smiths mentioned here and I must say, I am questioning my choice of gothic armor since I saw many sets that tickled my fancy... My friend opted to forego all the research and simply ordered a helmet from Marshal Historian - www.celticwebmerchant.com/en/bascinet-i-25-mm.html . The site states the helmet is made of untempered carbon steel 2.5 mm. I was blown away by a greathelm by Armory Smith that strigoil put the video of. I like the look and it seems to be built like a tank. The manufacturer sent me its price - Spring steel 439 usd and Spring steel+tempered 481 usd |
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Post by strigoil on Nov 30, 2018 0:08:14 GMT
Armorysmith definitely make solid HMB armor, that is their main focus and I believe they supply the Ukranian team in battle of nations, as well as fight themselves, the great helm you mentioned I don't think is exactly historical, like most HMB stuff but a lot of their armor is definitely stuff you can get beat up in..And maybe not feel so bad because your $5000 fluted gothic armor got banged up...I cry a little just thinking about it.
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Post by profkum on Nov 30, 2018 22:30:56 GMT
their armor is definitely stuff you can get beat up in..And maybe not feel so bad because your $5000 fluted gothic armor got banged up...I cry a little just thinking about it. True. I am also battling the thought of my (potential) fancy armor being dented and scratched... Perhaps a different approach is needed Anyone has any information/recommendations regarding Marshal Historical equipment? |
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Dec 1, 2018 3:51:34 GMT
There are many places to get this information, old art work, forget the movies and TV, videos. Scholagadiatoirs has several videos the one below gives a good overview but he has others. Metatron and Shadiversity both have videos on the subject. A coat of plates or brigandine are good protection and won’t show scratches or dents.
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We will mostly use longswords, perhaps sometimes maces
