pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Nov 18, 2018 23:00:15 GMT
I am not sure who xtremetrainer is trying to convince, himself or the forum as a whole. But what difference does it make? If he prefers swords so be it.
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Post by howler on Nov 19, 2018 0:51:36 GMT
I prefer swords myself, as they are cool, handy in tight places, and can be worn on a belt.
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Post by zabazagobo on Nov 19, 2018 2:56:23 GMT
As a last humorous post on the subject, I think the real winner is a dagger or short sword since you can just throw it right at the spearman. So swords win mwahaha.
On a (slightly) less goofy note, concerning using a sword as a projectile, is there any documentation on this being done with a greatsword? I wonder if there's any utility to such an odd strategy, but hey whatever gives an edge against a spear is sound advice.
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Post by bluetrain on Nov 24, 2018 14:31:49 GMT
If I remember correctly, there was a scene in The Three Musketeers (the one with Richard Chamberlain) or maybe the sequel, in which one of them is practicing throwing his sword, to the amusement of his comrades. Practicing disarming himself. But it does take practice.
I'd say, and I'm surprised I haven't said so already, that it's 50/50, given several assumptions, the chief of which is that they are equally skilled. And if they were equally skilled, it would be likely that they would be equally skilled with either weapons. A great deal hangs on that assumption. The original scenario is not at all far-fetched, since Roman gladiators fought one another with different weapons as a rule, though I couldn't say whether or not they would be equally skilled with any weapons.
Although comparisons of swords with pistols is interesting as well as useful, I don't think a great sword qualifies as a sidearm. One advantage of a handgun is that it can be carried more conveniently all the time, compared with a long gun. But a handgun is more difficult to hit anything with beyond, oh, 25 yards or so, for most people. Swords and spears (and axes, maces, etc.) are mostly contact weapons and there is no distance issue. In any case, both greatswords and spears (and axes, maces, etc.) are battlefield weapons (and, I suppose, dueling field) weapons and not really back alley or tavern room weapons. That's why you have a dagger.
For us ordinary modern folk, I'm not so sure. A greatsword would not, I think, been the weapon of conscripted serfs and peasants but the spear would have been (along with axes, maces, etc.). But the spear carrier in that case would probably have been less skilled than the wielder of the greatsword, who is assumed to have been a professional or experienced foot soldier. So in this case, the man with the greatsword would have his way, unless he were having a bad day.
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Post by xtremetrainer on Jun 24, 2020 5:57:19 GMT
So lets settle this once and for all. Take your pick. I'll take the yardstick wielded by a true warrior  ::sigh:: So funny I forgot to laugh. |
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Post by tiaolipa on Jun 26, 2020 3:17:06 GMT
Hello there. It's my first message here!
Well regarding sword vs spears, I think we have a very good current example of people really trained in it that fights every day: the kndokas fighting against Naginata.
The shinai version of a Naginata have a white oak shaft, that far overweight its two stripe bamboo blade, giving it a balance MUCH closer to steel pointed spear than a steel heavy bladed naginata.
Also, even the more traditional kendo schools are pitting shinai vs naginata the very same way they still do today for almost 200 years now.
All kenjutsu koryu schools like Katori Shinto Ryu or Hioho Niten Ichi Ryu teaches maaaaany different fighting styles. Their curriculum despite being named as a kenjutsu school, ranges from Kenjutsu, naginatajutsu, even more, jujutsu katas than the other summed up, iarijutsu, jojutsu, shirikenjutsu and even sometimes kusarigamajutsu.
Any professional men at arms be him knight, mercenary, dopplesoldner, bowman, samurai, ronin, musketeer, pikeman or any non-peasant non-unexperienced soldier knew how to fight with MANY weapons, and was trained in fighting in adversities such as with a small sword against a pole weapon.
In Niten Ichi Ryu the favourite weapon to fight against the naginata is the shoto, or kodachi, or wakizashi. The small sword. They find its speed ideal to defend form the naginata, buying time to charge forward really close where a naginata is pretty much ineffective.
I tried the very same approach with a longsword, a Tachi, represented by the long shinai, against a naginata and it simply doesn't work, because the bigger leverage needed by the circular slash of the longer blade is simply too big and easy to be defended with the shaft of the naginata.
I guess it will NEVER be between the weapons held, but by always by the best cold-blooded fighter.
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Post by tsmspace on Jun 27, 2020 8:56:08 GMT
I think the spear would win every time with equally skilled competitors. (equally skilled at their weapon, so a really good spearman against a really good greatswordman) .
Overall the spear is lighter and in a duel you will probably win with a stab, so the spear should score the first hit, and then should be able to stay clear and keep scoring hits without risk of being hit.
I would argue that great-swords aren't a weapon for the newbie, and would only be used by a master of weapons, and only in certain circumstances, and only in a duel if the whole thing was that they were so good they would win with it,,, or anyway if the whole thing was they HAD to do it with the greatsword as part of the agreement. They would choose the spear if they were just going for a first hit, or a smaller sword that they had maximum mobility with.
I would suggest (my own opinion) that the greatsword was actually well known to be quite specialized in utility, and basically everyone around at the time knew when to use one, and when (mostly) not to. I would argue that it was basically only used in a dueling context for the novelty of it. The winner would be unquestionably the spear.
One difference between a great-sword and a spear is that if the opponent tries to grab the spear shaft, they can. If in a formation and pikes and spears are not working so well because of tight quarters, then the motions will mostly be stabbing only, because swinging something long when packed together is not really available very often. So you end up trying to shove your weapon into gaps in the shields or armor hoping to push someone off balance or stab them. (poking your pike into their hip you might not penetrate armor but you might be able to force them to struggle against the pressure, costing them stability for using their own weapon or possibly even seating them upon the field of battle. Once down they will struggle to participate until they can stand back up, leaving their ally's vulnerable on the sides.) ,,, However, if mobility is limited, and the spear or pike is not in enough motion, it will be possible to get a grip on the opponents pike, disabling the weapon, or possibly even taking the weapon from them. Most likely you would just try to hold it and keep them from using it. Trying to do the same thing with a sword blade would be much more difficult, because they could push and pull on the blade to saw into your hand. The entire portion of the blade that is exposed to the enemy is blade. with two hands on the sword , one on the main grip, and one on the blade-grip, it would be possible to work the tip of the sword onto a weakness in the armor , and then start forcing the tip into the target like forcing a shovel into the ground. If the opponent moves away from the attack, they will sacrifice their position, which may not be an option because it will compromise the line, but if they stay put, you will eventually work the tip into their body, forcing them to either sacrifice their position or take damage. So, the great-sword would actually be like a fail-safe spear in a line that was cramped and too close to easily move longer weapons.
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Post by tsmspace on Jun 27, 2020 9:26:42 GMT
That's one of the simpler weapons to face with a spear. The simple summary: the spear has a huge advantage. While it's true enough that the "only chance the spearman has is of being able to stab the greatsword man before the greatsword man gets close", it's easier for the spearman to stab his opponent than for the swordsman to close with his. The big heavy two-hander is relatively better against a spear (but IMO still inferior). So then why didn't knights always use spears instead of swords? A spear is a much simpler weapon just a shaft and a head with a point. Spears were around long before swords, they've been in use since the stone age. And, in medieval times a spear would be much less expensive than a sword. Why was the sword invented if the spear is a better weapon? they weren't deuling. |
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Post by xtremetrainer on Feb 17, 2023 22:06:02 GMT
I think the spear would win every time with equally skilled competitors. (equally skilled at their weapon, so a really good spearman against a really good greatswordman) . If they're both highly skilled and they're both fighting on foot I would bet on the swordsman winning. I would only bet on the spearman winning if they're both of low skill. Or if they're both on horseback. If they're both on horseback the spearman would have the clear advantage. But if they're both on foot I would definitely bet on the swordsman if they're both of high skill or even if they're both of medium skill. The only time the spearman would win is if they're both on horseback or if they're both of low skill. |
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AndiTheBarvarian
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Feb 17, 2023 22:17:33 GMT
Much depends on the weight of the spearhead.
A small lightweight spearhead vs. greatsword is like rapier vs. longsword.
... ah, wait...
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Post by Sir Thorfinn on Feb 23, 2023 2:25:49 GMT
Ah, Andi .... You see the pattern in xtremetrainers posts...
Me too
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AndiTheBarvarian
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Feb 23, 2023 7:52:48 GMT
I personally like those discussions and missed them a long time.
Unlike a certain ex-member I feel not semprinied from the 25th thread about kats and longswords, in worst case just hit the ignore button.
But new or old members with new experiences can add a new point of view.
I think a forum is more than an exchange of bookmarks where all valuable stuff was said long ago.
For example my post above wasn't just a joke.
I recently bought two big spearheads with the idea of having a short sword and a staff in one
But I found out that the handling as a spear wasn't as nimble as expected.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Feb 23, 2023 14:10:41 GMT
It's interesting to revisit an older thread like this. In the time since it was first posted, I have completely changed my outlook on the topic of sword vs. spear. I used to think that the spear always had the advantage, but I have since learned that this is not the case. Quite the opposite. A longsword (speaking in general terms which could mean European or Asian), is very good against a spear, and I believe it's one of the primary uses for it on the battlefield. I derived this from my personal experience with Jean Baptiste and Alex Trinh when I was in Paris last year. I have linked the thread below in which I posted video of the workshop we did on specifically Dandao vs. spear. To say that it was a real eyeopener for me is a gross understatement. I came away from the workshop with a new found respect for the longsword in both it's speed and dexterity, as well as it's excellence in fighting against the spear. It's not good to judge a weapon only by comparing it's stats to something else. There is, in my opinion, a greater determining factor in the equation. I am speaking of course about training and technique. I am constantly surprised when I learn something about a "new" weapon that I previously dismissed as ineffective. As always, I encourage everybody to not pay the least bit of attention to anything I say, but to seek out a teacher and a sparring partner and learn for yourself. Don't limit yourself to a single culture or style, learn from everyone. sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/68247/tao-dan-workshop-paris-2022 |
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Post by Murffy on Mar 3, 2023 16:44:34 GMT
Yeah, my thinking has changed a bit, too. Wielding something like a longsword, a person with good technique has decent chances against a spear. I'm not sure the odds are even between equally skilled opponents but the longsword has some advantages like a broader array of targets because of its quick cutting ability. I think this skallagrim video is instructive. He spars with longsword against a spearman and is able to come out on top much of the time. In a combat/melee situation where death is in the balance and fear and panic are always looming, I still think I'd rather have a spear. |
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Post by RufusScorpius on Mar 3, 2023 18:16:09 GMT
Yeah, my thinking has changed a bit, too. Wielding something like a longsword, a person with good technique has decent chances against a spear. I'm not sure the odds are even between equally skilled opponents but the longsword has some advantages like a broader array of targets because of its quick cutting ability. I think this skallagrim video is instructive. He spars with longsword against a spearman and is able to come out on top much of the time. In a combat/melee situation where death is in the balance and fear and panic are always looming, I still think I'd rather have a spear. Did you watch the video I posted? Jean Baptiste is probably the world's leading expert on longsword vs. spear. As much as I admire Skallagrim, Jean is a for real expert who is responsible for translating the old texts into an active style and I would trust his knowledge over anybody who was self taught. I wish I could say I learned a lot from him, but I was only there for 2 days. In that time, I really only learned that I don't know much at all. Hopefully I will be able to visit him again this year, but no promises on that. |
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Post by Murffy on Mar 3, 2023 20:33:11 GMT
Yeah, my thinking has changed a bit, too. Wielding something like a longsword, a person with good technique has decent chances against a spear. I'm not sure the odds are even between equally skilled opponents but the longsword has some advantages like a broader array of targets because of its quick cutting ability. I think this skallagrim video is instructive. He spars with longsword against a spearman and is able to come out on top much of the time. In a combat/melee situation where death is in the balance and fear and panic are always looming, I still think I'd rather have a spear. Did you watch the video I posted? Jean Baptiste is probably the world's leading expert on longsword vs. spear. As much as I admire Skallagrim, Jean is a for real expert who is responsible for translating the old texts into an active style and I would trust his knowledge over anybody who was self taught. I wish I could say I learned a lot from him, but I was only there for 2 days. In that time, I really only learned that I don't know much at all. Hopefully I will be able to visit him again this year, but no promises on that. I did watch the video quite a while ago. I wasn't trying to supplant it so much as supplement it. Not sure what you mean by "self taught" in this context. Are you saying skallagrim is self-taught? My impression is that he's received plenty of instruction given that he's made videos with HEMA instructors. |
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Post by toddstratton1 on Mar 4, 2023 20:42:53 GMT
Dont people in HEMA practice this kind of sparring sometimes? Would be a great practical example of it. Though not exactly replicative of real combat with sharps.
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Post by leviathansteak on Mar 5, 2023 11:05:31 GMT
Ive done some greatsword vs spear and found the spear to still be advantageous as it still outranges the greatsword.
Surprisingly, i did better against the spear when i was armed with a more conventionally sized longsword than with a greatsword. This was because i aimed to chase down the spearman and deal close range cuts where the spearman would have fewer options for retaliation.
The greatsword wasnt so good for this purpose as the size and weight made my close range play more sluggish than with the longsword.
Plus, where possible, i would grab the spear haft with one hand, and the longsword is of course easier to manipulate in one hand than the greatsword.
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Post by Murffy on Mar 5, 2023 16:10:36 GMT
Ive done some greatsword vs spear and found the spear to still be advantageous as it still outranges the greatsword. Surprisingly, i did better against the spear when i was armed with a more conventionally sized longsword than with a greatsword. This was because i aimed to chase down the spearman and deal close range cuts where the spearman would have fewer options for retaliation. The greatsword wasnt so good for this purpose as the size and weight made my close range play more sluggish than with the longsword. Plus, where possible, i would grab the spear haft with one hand, and the longsword is of course easier to manipulate in one hand than the greatsword. That's interesting. |
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Post by RufusScorpius on Mar 5, 2023 19:08:02 GMT
The technique used with a greatsword is very different than what would be used with a long sword. You have to employ more of your body motion to control the mass of the blade, but once you understand the basic idea, the greatsword is very fast and agile when weilded one- handed
As Jean-Baptiste explained to me "its a one-handed sword in which the other hand helps out occasionally".
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