Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Sept 12, 2018 10:39:19 GMT
We have to thank French General Bernadotte for these clones of the French AN IX - AN XI Light Cavalry sabre. Our weather vane General had established himself in Sweden and in the last struggles of the Napoleonic wars he ordered the sabres to be made at Solingen for the Swedish Cavalry. (See edit in update 1.) As is the case of many, if not all, bureaucratic efforts, stuff went quite wrong and the sabres arrived when all things Napoleonic had settled down in favour of the Allied Forces. So the sabres were never used in battle, though looking at many an HC in particular, one would not say so. Where the LC is a direct clone of the AN IX in the smallest detail, the HC is a typical Swedish monster. As can be deduced from the numbers, the scabbard alone weighs more than the HC sabre and has about twice the weight of the LC scabbard. It is almost too heavy to carry about. Yet the HC was designated to be the Swedish Cavalry parade sabre and served as such for a very long time. As an aside: Nobody seems to know why most of the HC hilts were bashed in. Both the LC and the HC are quite hard to find, but one almost never sees an HC with the hilt intact. It was done at the armoury at one time and not in the wild. Very strange. Most of the LC's are intact though and they are a good way to get an AN IX at reduced price. Not that they are cheap, but as a good French AN IX - AN XI Troopers goes for about Euro 1250 to 1400, you can get 400 to 500 off if you should be so lucky to find a Swede. Both the HC and the LC are quite rare though. The LC hilt. Notice the flange on the pommel cap. The HC does not have that. Another difference is the joint of the knuckle bow. The HC hilt with a smooth pommel cap. The HC knuckle bow joint. One way to see whether you have a real ANXIII or a Swedish copy is by looking at the typical non French ring mounts. Notice the heft of the HC drag section. Sometimes they have unit stamps. Blade tip section. The HC on top. Many but not all sabres are marked this way. This is the HC. This is the LC. Unmarked, but that is not uncommon. Notice the taper. This is one sabre to have. As sometimes sellers do not see the difference with an ANXIII you'll have to keep your eyes open. The scabbard ring mounts tell all. (See edit in update 1.) The numbers. HC: Weight OA: 2218 gram.................LC:1548 gram. HC: Weight sabre: 1075 gram.................1014 gram. HC: Weight scabbard: 1166 gram...............535 gram. HC lenght OA: 108 cm.........................103 cm. HC Lenght sabre: 105 cm ......................99 cm. HC length blade: 90.5 cm.....................85 cm. HC Width: 36 mm..............................35 mm. HC Thickness: 10.5:7:6:5:2 mm...............10:6:5:4.5:2 mm. HC POB: 15.3 cm...............................13.5 cm. I would like to format this thread as I did with the slotted hilt: sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/55249/slotted-cavalry-officers-sabre-finaleI will update when appropriate. Lots of work to do on the HC in particular. Cheers. .
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Post by berntk on Sept 12, 2018 11:41:16 GMT
Looking forward to it! There seems to be a few spots in the fuller near the point of the HC which are a challenge to get at whilst keeping the lines. Not to you, I'm sure.
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Post by Pino on Sept 12, 2018 15:57:40 GMT
Hey cool models, I encountered some of the LC but couldn't figure out they'd be Swedish. It's quite peculiar in a funny way that they did a HC sword that was just a bigger, yet cruder, version of the LC models, instead of making a universal pattern.
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Sept 13, 2018 11:21:07 GMT
Pino: ,, It's quite peculiar in a funny way that they did a HC sword that was just a bigger, yet cruder, version of the LC models, instead of making a universal pattern.'' Why does this remind me of the M1822 HC Bancal? Update.1. Today I started on the LC. Made new liners as they were missing. The blade did bind a bit. As the blade was dirty, after I pulled it out and shoved it back in for a while, the places were it stuck were easy to spot. Dirt marks. So I would recommend that if you encounter such problems with new liners you put some dirt on the blade, or cover it with magic marker or some such. At least something that rubs off on the liners. Once you have the spots, just sand them down a bit. If you do this in stages you can influence the amount of binding so you have it just right and the sabre does not come out of the scabbard when held upside down. And I inspected the sabre. Here's what I found: The usual crud under the langets. Nothing special but it has to come off. I will try the good old ,, aluminium foil on a little stick and oil '' method. It will be annoying to do. That's why it is there. Troopers do not like to do these jobs. Nobody does. The overall condition of the blade is quite good. This is a first. What is this? Better be careful here. Badly defined fuller end. I will have to find out if this is standard on these Swedes. The usual pitting on the tip section. Nothing special. And I need to center and wedge the blade. So apart from the funny spot in picture 3 there is nothing special going on. See you later. Cheers.
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Post by Pino on Sept 13, 2018 12:37:17 GMT
Indeed the Bancal might spring to mind but at least they added an extra branch and less curved blade to differentiate the 1822s; with the Swedes it's just ''You know what? let's just make a bigger version of that guy there''.
No other nation had this concept, dare I say it was a progressive idea for that time?
But enough talk; let's observe your magic.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Sept 13, 2018 13:08:00 GMT
I was looking at the fuller and must ask, are you sure that wasn’t made by Windlass?
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Sept 13, 2018 13:58:04 GMT
Pgandy: Were you made by Windlass? :) Maintenance was probably done with fine sand mixed with oil. IF there was a nice fuller finish, it was rubbed out long ago. I guess the sand-oil mix could be compared with say modern 80 - 120 grid?
Pino: The sabre itself is not that bad actually. It is the scabbard that is totally over designed. Much like the first or second (I forget which) French Cuirassier scabbards, it weighs more than the sabre or in the Cuirassier case, the pallasch. The HC blade has slightly less curve. Maybe not as straight as the Bancal though. At the end of this exercise I should probably compare the HC Swede with the it. See what comes up. Might be interesting.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Sept 13, 2018 14:36:29 GMT
Very interesting swords. I like the HC, just a quality of "Me Big!" to it that I find appealing. I'm sure the LC is a screamer.
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Sept 13, 2018 14:57:05 GMT
Pity I haven't an ANXI - III to compare it with. I cannot find the old sabre reviews you brought together, so I do not have the numbers, if there are any on the forum. I hesitate to call on Dave, as he probably is hammering down the house with this hurricane incoming. Anybody have the numbers on the ANI - III? Pino? Yes I am sure too the LC is a hoot. Haven't had the time yet to seriously go into handling yet though. Clean it up first.
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Sept 13, 2018 16:15:33 GMT
Editing the main post: The scabbard from this HC was made by Eskilstuna. I totally missed the anchor stamp on the drag. This may indicate the scabbard was of later issue but I am not sure. Cannot find the history of Eskilstuna. Not surprising anyway as the sabres had a long service life. www.gotavapen.se/gota/sverige/history_se.htmAnd another thing I missed: there is an engraved number 10 on the pommel cap. This may be the rack or weapon number. And another difference between the Swedish sabres and the French ANI-III Troopers is that the Swedes do not have the olives on the grip. As these olives sometimes dropped off, you'll have to look for holes in the grip. No holes, no olives and those typical ring mounts = Swede. Cheers.
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Post by Afoo on Sept 14, 2018 6:19:37 GMT
The HC reminds me of the Swedish 1831 sabre (https://sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/49022/swedish-mounted-artillery-another-variant) in that it looks like a longer, straighter version of the 1796-style blade. Almost like a hybrid of the 1796 LC and HC. You keep the same broad blade, wide fuller, and spatulate tip o'cutting, but make it straighter and longer. Looks nice
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Sept 14, 2018 17:33:17 GMT
Update 2. Day 1. Today I started to really work on the LC and did the fuller on one side. Took 3 hours. Started with coarse steel wool which would not do it, so worked down to lower grids to get results. Turns out that all of the dust spots, those large blackish spots, can be removed with 120 grid. What remains are a very few and tiny pin prick pits and I will let those be. Those small pits can go very deep I found. In this case they do not distract from a impression of a nice clean blade. Want to close for the day with some tips. Nice contrast. 10 cm strokes with the fingers under the edge for support. You do some short strokes for local nasties but always come back with the long strokes to even things out. With fingers under the edge you do not go skating all over the place. Control is the game. Here with the left hand to give the right some rest. Support with the palm of the hand resting on the edge section. The palm just skims over the steel, never losing contact. The end of the fuller needs some care. NEVER go from low, the bottom of the fuller, uphill. There will be nasty and deep scratches cutting in the ridge. ALWAYS go downhill in short strokes. From the edge to the bottom and do not use much pressure. Done for the day. Cheers.
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Sept 16, 2018 16:42:30 GMT
Update 3. Day 2. Today I did the edge and tip sections on both sides. This took 5.5 hours to complete. Not to brag, just to let you know that even with a relatively clean sabre like this one, jobs like this take time. Doing the edge. (The section between the fuller and the cutting edge). These sections can be quite wobbly. Narrow here, a tad wider there. To straighten this out I pick the spot where the edge is widest, place a piece of say 120 on it, hold it down with my thumb and lock it in place with the rest of my fingers butting up against the cutting edge. Now the max width is locked in place and when you go up and down along the blade in long strokes you will see a straight line developing. Remember to do this with all subsequent grids. This will tidy up the sabre big time without much effort and loss of material. Of course doing this will also remove most nasties. To be able to do this you need free movement so at least the larger part of the blade should be free of support and the blade clamped down resting on the spine only. I have my supports in two sections. In order to work on the tip you'll need to remove one and clamp the blade down like this: Now the tip section is free and you can hook your fingers under the blade for guidance and control while on the hunt for nasty bits. Do not overdo it and take care not to make dents. Always follow the profile. also, try to avoid touching the end of the fuller. When you are done with cleaning it is time do work on fuller definition. I have a little block for this. 60x18x18 mm. Wrap some paper around it, nice and tight and now follow the profile of the tip section in short strokes just barely going over the fullers edge. There may be some low spots appearing just after the fullers end. That residue from the old polisher's work. If you keep at it for a while the low spots will disappear and a nice tight edge at fullers end will start to show. Keep on doing this with all subsequent grids. Contrary to what is shown in the above image, it is best to fully support the tip section while working on the fuller. After a while the fuller end will look like this. A lot better defined even in the raw 120 grid. I found a picture of the 1814 LC from the Swedish Army museum. There they collect only the best examples, so what you get to see is the best template for you to imitate. I think we are getting there, using the little block. Now both sides are done and even only in 120 grid things are clean starting to look well already. Cheers.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Sept 16, 2018 18:21:02 GMT
Thanks for detailing. It feels like I'm doing the work, but without the sore fingers and aching back.
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Sept 18, 2018 16:39:28 GMT
Not the fingers, nor the back. The polishing stand is quite high at 100 cm plus. Its the freaking shoulder muscles. You know, the stuff that runs from the shoulders to under the neck. Feels like lifting those 50 ltr. beer kegs all day long, like I used to do as a student when I was a lot younger. That was not my personal beer stash by the way. It was doing the delivery run from the brewery to the staminees and diverse establishments of questionable morality where a young innocent student should not have any knowledge off. The ladies liked me. They made sandwiches and fussed over me. The driver got free beer. All day long. It's a miracle I am still alive.
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Post by bfoo2 on Sept 19, 2018 6:10:14 GMT
Not the fingers, nor the back. The polishing stand is quite high at 100 cm plus. Its the freaking shoulder muscles. You know, the stuff that runs from the shoulders to under the neck. Feels like lifting those 50 ltr. beer kegs all day long, like I used to do as a student when I was a lot younger. That was not my personal beer stash by the way. It was doing the delivery run from the brewery to the staminees and diverse establishments of questionable morality where a young innocent student should not have any knowledge off. The ladies liked me. They made sandwiches and fussed over me. The driver got free beer. All day long. It's a miracle I am still alive. ...and you're using the muscles you built up during your student days to clean up your swords. Nice to see someone putting their school experience to good use
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Sept 19, 2018 16:11:08 GMT
Well...if I look around me and see one foo lighting stuff on fire for kicks and the other foo yodeling around in snowy woods with his behind stuck into a big donut, I think I am not doing so bad... :D Update 3. Day 4. Finished one side. 120 - 240 - coarse valve polisher - 400 - 600 - middle grid steel wool - Mothers. all in oil. I do not like Mothers as the residue tends to give the steel a bluish tinge, as least that is what I think I see. In this case however Mothers proved to be a godsend. The steel is a lot softer than the steel of the ,, sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/55249/slotted-cavalry-officers-sabre-finaleThat was really hard. Here all kinds of stuff happened when I got to polishing with soft middle and fine steel wool. Do not know why, but the effect was horrendous. So I had to go back to middle coarse wool. Just for the heck of it I did a small window with Mothers and all was good again. Yay Mothers. At first I polished the blade in small patches with Mothers on a leather tod and with a drop of oil to make it go smooth. This worked very well, but something was missing. I do not know why, but I clamped the blade down at the ricasso, smeared Mothers all over the blade, squirted oil in the fuller, took the leather mop and started to work from the ricasso to the tip and back again in one go. Do this for some 20 minutes, it is a good workout too, add more oil to keep a good slurry on the blade and really lean into it. This action resulted in bringing the blade together. I do not have another word for it at the moment. Now what lines there are and there will always be some, will run from the tip straight to the ricasso. This really looks like the effects of the polishing wheel of old. Other steels may react differently.
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Post by bfoo2 on Sept 20, 2018 5:38:39 GMT
Good progress! They say this for painting, but apparently it also applies to the use of abrasives on swords: "try on an inconspicuous area first and see how the surface reacts" That being said, the work is quite impressive. In your second picture the finish looks more like what you get on a new-production repro rather than a 200+ year old antique Shhh! It's all in the name of science. This is how we're curing cancer
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Sept 20, 2018 12:36:24 GMT
Update 4. Day 5. So today I did the other side and stopped with coarse middle steel wool. Looked at the Mothers side and went YECH. Bfoo you were right. It looked like an aluminium movie prop. Blue tinge instead of the nice dark silver grey it should be. Really cheap and nasty when compared. So I took the Mothers down again and now the blade is alright. As the original washer was missing there was some play of the blade. Two copper wedges fixed that. Now the blade is centered. Filled the voids under the blade and in the tang aperture in the guard with epoxy clay. Now the blade emits a deep ,, boooing '' when struck. I love that. I let the sabre rest now. Tomorrow the residue of the epoxy will be removed. To cover for all this modern tinkering I will get some super glue in there and sprinkle it with fine metal dust from the blade. When that is dry I will again add some glue to darken the steel dust. This should make it look black, like old rust and crud one often finds under washers. Oh, how devious are our ways....
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Post by Sir Thorfinn on Sept 20, 2018 14:19:38 GMT
Beautiful work, and quite obviously a labor of love. Question: I don't know if you've said in any of your threads, but when you talk about fine/middle/coarse steel wool. Does what you use have a grit on it? so for instance in looking on Amazon(heresy!) looking for 'fine steel wool' I see lots that are '0000' etc. So what grits are you using?
As for Mothers leaving a tint, perhaps its a little *too* shiny, have you looked at it in direct sunlight to compare? Also, have you tried using something like mineral spirits to clean any residue off after? Just trying to help you fine tune an already rock solid process, not criticize. I know fooling with a power buffer and some steels, when you get to a really fine level of polish, it can make the steel look fake. Very odd. Which is why I try to look in sunlight as well. My shop lights are...not great.
I love your thread by the way...awesome how-to info.
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