Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Oct 9, 2018 16:30:26 GMT
,, I must tell you that some Americans do not like being called Yanks. ,,
Don't want to p1ss you off, but in Europe the WWII and following generation, the so called Boomers, call you Yanks Yanks, never mind the South versus North sensibilities.
,, Maybe you could answer this question, since you probably know more about swords than anyone else here ''.
No I don't. I don't know sh8t about anything.
Plating: Officially the nickel plate process was only ready for industry around 1870-71. See the article at Wikipedia. That means that a lot of people had been fiddling with nickel plate for a long time already. As we are talking electro plating here I think that from about 1850 more or less serious efforts were made and results were had. I am not sure of the 1850 date, but I seem to remember reading about it. Must have something to do with being able to have a steady and controled supply of electricity. Go over the ideal voltage and stuff will just burn. There are pre 1870 dated blades with nickel plate around. Problem is that those blades could have been plated over much later by the owner or collectors. I do not think we will ever be able to find that one out. What only now pops into my mind, which should give you an insight at how bloody stupid I am: If you look at the gigantic number of sabres floating around the market, it seems obvious that nickel plating never really took off as a fashion. Most of the blades I see from after 1870 do not have plate at all. At least that is how it looks like to me.
Tomorrow I hope to finish the blade of the HC and I hope to start with the scabbard the day after. So, with a bit of luck we can close down the Swedish project this weekend. About time too.
Cheers.
Edit: I remember now. Before 1850 silver plate was pressed on. Silver sheet was pressed on both sides of a thicker copper sheet and then the lot was formed into parts for tea pots and whatever. That was the good old Sheffield Plate. After 1850, I think it was the work of a French guy, the thick copper sheet could be electro plated. Which means that the copper sheet could be formed in the desired parts, easely soldered together, polished, cleaned and dunked into the plating bath. Saved time and production costs. Also, instead of using thickish silver sheet, one could now control the thickness of the plate layer. Saved some silver too. Needless to say quality suffered and soon stamped parts were used. The old Sheffield plate is often still beautiful, while some stuff of a later date can look like the prize you get a fair in the shooting at metal ducks contest.
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Post by bluetrain on Oct 9, 2018 17:31:15 GMT
I would have been surprised if most sword blades were plated after nickel plating became economically feasible, if only because it would have inhibited sharpening. Naturally, once swords ceased being field service weapons, that didn't matter and plating would have been a Good Thing. Stainless was even better, although nickel plating looks a little better. The last sword issued for field service in the United States had a blued blade. The officer's saber was nickel plated, as was the scabbard. I also imagine that plated scabbards were thought to be good, except that they "glittered."
In one of the links in this thread, I think, there were comments about "over polishing," resulting in the removal of some things that were on the blade. I would imagine that such polishing may have occurred during the original service life of the sword, referring here to issue blades, not officer swords, though the same thing could have occurred with them, too.
To an European, a Yankee is an American. To an American, a Yankee is a Northerner. To Northerners, a Yankee is an Easterner. To an Easterner, a Yankee is a New Englander. To a New Englander, a Yankee is a Vermonter. To a Vermonter, a Yankee is someone who eats pie for breakfast.
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Oct 9, 2018 20:37:51 GMT
,, To a Vermonter, a Yankee is someone who eats pie for breakfast. ''
Jack kerouac, in On the Road, describes how he got off a freight train in some small prairie town and had breakfast of warm apple pie covered with ice cream. Best breakfast he ever had he said. He was French Canadian. 8-)
Sometimes I wonder how there are any sabres left, worthy of the name. Poor Troopers polished the hell out of their gear with fine sand and water or oil. No wonder then that lines are faded and some sabres look like they just got polished by Windlass. Under all the rubbish that is.
Also: define ,,over polishing''. Who would be the judge of that? It is another one of those nonsense terms. Saul Alinsky tactics. If you cannot win on argument, besmearch your opponents with a term that has negative vibes in the hope the public picks up on those and so gets a negative impression of said opponents. Once that impression is fixed you wait for your opponent to defend him/her self. This can be twisted as proof that the false allegations must be true. Why defend yourself otherwise, eh? Easy as pie. Now where have I seen those tactics used a short while ago?
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Post by bluetrain on Oct 9, 2018 21:03:58 GMT
When I was in the army, there were things to polish, none of them blades, though. Same as in the British Army at the time, too. Everything brass and black leather had to be shiny and clean. Little cap and collar badges had lots of detail that had to be scrubbed with an old toothbrush (but who had an old toothbrush?), leaving it gleaming and Brasso-clear. It was considered a good thing when you had brass that had been polished a lot and was smooth and did not retain Brasso in the crevices. German soldiers, who I saw lots of, didn't go in for nonsense like that. Neither did British Army Green Jacket regiments, although they still had the black leather. But the British switched to "Sta-Brite" and sales of Brasso fell. Some of their boot polishing techniques are rather startling.
For polishing an unplated sword, Brasso doesn't cut it. I have really only used "rottenstone," mainly because I happened to have a supply for woodworking. I never thought of using steel wool.
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Oct 11, 2018 15:56:13 GMT
Day 16. The sabre is finished. This time I did: 60 - 80 - 120 - 180 - 240 - coarse valve polisher - fine valve polisher - medium steel wool - fine steel wool. I can really recommend the valve cleaner / polisher. The stuff takes out plenty of the 240 scratches and gives a really smooth finish. Here, on this blade, this regime worked very well and I will test it out on following blades to see what happens. I do not know what happened with this sabre, but it sure was vandalised. No other words for this. The arrow points to the point of impact of a tremendous blow that not only made a bulge on the edge, but also in the fuller. The blow was so hard that the spine has a wiggle now and right under the spine I discovered cracks. This is the thickest portion of the blade. Testament of the quality of this sabre, busted hilt and all, is that it still feels like ready to go. It has not given up just yet. Together with the V shaped cut marks in the edge and the above evidence of some sort of scraping on the scabbard, done with a rock?, it looks like some recrute really hated this sabre. If these sabres were used year in year out for training, with cutting excersises from horse back being the main ingredient I can understand some of the damage. The V shaped impact marks come from another blade, not a wood cutting stand. Since Sweden did not engage in war after 1814, these sabres were never used under such conditions. Could it be anything else then two recrutes beating the hell out of each other? Anyway, 60 grid takes care of the scrape marks, but there will still be quite some pitting remaining. Pitting or not, it will look much better when I am done. Cheers.
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Post by bfoo2 on Oct 14, 2018 6:13:57 GMT
Was busy the past while and finally catching up; excellent work as usual, Uhlan . You mention some scraping on the scabbard (as if done by a rock): I have notices similar scraping on the hilts of some sabers, most recently on the inside of the guard of a Prussian 1811 I was recently cleaning. Never thought about where it came from until now. This being a Swedish sabre (and therefore excessively heavy), I can't say I blame the recruit. I'd want to bash this thing in too if I had to lug it around the barracks all day Several of my antiques have similar V-shaped impact marks on the edge of the blade. Most of these examples have no evidence of service-sharpening, which would rule out combat usage. My two theories are a) training: possibly these were used for saber-drills with a partner thus might have been subject to blade-on-blade contact or b) these swords are hundreds of years old and likely passed through several civilian owners after being removed from military service. Odds are that one of these civilian owners (or their hyperactive kids) whacked something with their new novelty antique sword and added some dings.
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Oct 14, 2018 16:14:35 GMT
Day 19. The scabbard is up to 180 grid now. Did 4.5 hours of scraping this Sunday. Did not make the deadline. Oh well. I just hide behind the ,, I am an old man eh? '' excuse. And my devastatingly good looks. That always works. Forgot to post the finished sabre too. Mmm.. There must be something to this,, I am an old man eh? business. Also, there will not be any giggling in the back of this class. B##2da**!!!
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Oct 14, 2018 17:05:26 GMT
That blade looks better than it did, thanks to the Uhlan touch.
Edit: I have no problem being called “yank”. I’ve heard the term from my earliest years, but less so in recent years but I now travel in a different circle. Yank, Americano, or gringo are all the same to me. However being a southern boy I would not like to be called a yankee. The two terms should not be confused.
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Post by Jordan Williams on Oct 14, 2018 18:54:30 GMT
Very nice work on your sabre Uhlan. It looks better than ever thanks to your efforts.
The V knicks are interesting to me. In my experience a sharp blade will leave a "V" while a blunt blade will leave a "U", unless the steel rolls (in case of the sharp V knick). But sharps will usually have sharper knick profiles.
On the subject of Gringo and Yankee and Yank, I am of the western states so I don't have any say in the latter two (aside from not having any problem with them) but I do dislike being called Gringo. A Mexican gal I was friends with relayed to me it was essentially on par with some racial slurs where she was from. The manner in how I've heard it used has reinforced this somewhat, but that's neither here nor there in this thread.
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Post by bluetrain on Oct 14, 2018 19:47:14 GMT
I'm a hillbilly myself. All terms like that can be taken in more than one way.
Not to change the subject or anything, but what would have been the original finish of the scabbard? Nickel-plated?
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Oct 14, 2018 20:37:51 GMT
Jordan: About the contact scars: V shaped all of them with at the bottom of the V rolled up steel. Which could mean a sharpened blade. Which does not fit the training story. My blade was never sharpened. At least, that is how it looks like. No wheel marks. Also the signs of brute force are plenty. A psycolochist would say there is a lot of anger and/or fear there. A brutality I for sure would never allow during training. Like someone went berserk. Like in battle. But there was never any battle after 1814. Scores settled? You stole my girl, fuelled with a bottle of Swedish hooch? Kids at play could never have done this. The scars are where they should be, from the tip down to half way the blade. Nothing random, like in ,, This is boring. let's do Grandmas piano for kicks ''. No, somebody knew how and where to parry. Or so it looks like.
Bluetrain: These Swedes are M1814. So, initially the scabbards would have had a polished steel finish. Since the sabres had a long service life it could be that some scabbards were plated after 1870, but nothing in the literature ( but there is not very much to go on to begin with ) suggests this. Mine at least does not have a nickel surface, nor shows signs of old plating. Under the grey and black I could still see patches of a high quality polish though. Really nice. I will have to try to emulate that.
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Oct 17, 2018 16:42:58 GMT
Day 22. So, after 3 weeks of work this Swedish HC is finished. The scabbard was an absolute semprini, but I got her done anyhow. During the work I discovered another deep blade scar on the underside. Thought at first it was just another dent, but no. The blow had enough force to almost penetrate the 2.5 mm thick steel sheet. If this is training then I am Bugs Bunny. Tomorrow I will wrap up the thread with some glamour shots of my Swedish gals draped all over my trademark whorehouse red velvet...ah...drapes. So tune in tomorrow for Ulahns Penthouse special!
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Post by Jordan Williams on Oct 17, 2018 18:44:37 GMT
Perhaps a case of self defense, or purposefully using the sword to parry blows and striking it to make it appear "battle worn"? But that last one doesn't male very much sense to me at least because I never met a collector who wanted a dinged up sword.
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Oct 18, 2018 13:04:06 GMT
Day 23. As promised, here are some glamour shots of the sabres. Something to remember: The sabres have a peen plateau on top of the pommel cap. If the blades were worked on by the armoury, then half of this plateau, at least, would have been filed off to be able to make the new peen. The LC is intact. The HC has the top filed to half its height. So, if you are looking to buy a French sabre, like the M1822 for instance, have a good look at that bulging peen plateau. As to the damage on the HC: The damage to the hilt, at least according to the Deutsche Blankwaffen Forum can be observed on a lot of the HC sabres. They claim it was done on purpose. There are intact examples around, but those are even more rare. In this thread we discussed the damage to the blade also. Was it training, or some kids playing? The blade scars tell a tale of very forceful blows, all in the area of the top half of the blade, so, where they would be expected. With kids the blade would be damaged all over. They lack the training. Still, the training story does not totally convince me. There's the ugly and very deep scar on the scabbard too, which cannot have anything to do with exercise in my view. So yesterday I went hunting and found the disturbance of 1848. A major, for any standards, social upheaval where 18 persons were killed. The article had this picture in it. What we see is the Cavalry charge of the militia or some special unit of the Gendarmes. And pardon me if I am wrong, what I see is that they used the long HC M1814 sabres. I do not have the information, but it seems logical, when looking at procedures in other countries, that at least a part of the HC M1814 surplus stock was given to the militia and Gendarme units, as the model was defunct and old by 1848. It was actually never used. At least the LC was used as parade sabre. What I am trying to say here is that the extensive damage to the blade might have been done during this or another social conflict. Not that this matters very much, but it is an interesting idea I think and to my mind more convincing. The Swedish M1814 HC compared with the French M1822 LC cavalry sabre. My French Troopers M1822 has a blade of 92 cm. The S.HC blade is 90.5 cm long. The blade curve of the S.HC is 3.6 cm and the M1822 has 3.8 cm. Blade width is 3.6 cm for the S.HC and 3.1 cm for the M1822. The M1822 sabre weighs 1045 grams. The S.HC weighs 1075 grams. The POB on the French is 15 cm and on the S.HC it is 15.5 cm. So, all in all, both sabres are virtually the same. I do not think the extra 30 grams of the S.HC is much of a spoiler here. Handling: Personal! I find the M1822 vague. I lose contact with the upper portion of the blade. The tip more so. The S.HC handles more direct and for me is more satisfactory in this department, though the blade is somewhat more flexible in the upper half. I think the cause of the difference sits in the grips. The M1822 has this round stocky grip. The S.HC has a flatter grip which is much wider at the guard. It is better profiled too. The hand does not want to move to the pommel. So, of the two, the S.HC has the better, locking and hand filling, grip, which directly, for me at least, translates in a much better report from the blade and also dispenses with the attack on the wrist I always feel with the M1822. I very much prefer the S.HC. And the S.LC? Well, that's a doddle. A joy to wield. The French equivalent would be the M1829 Artillery in the affordable bracket. For the fatter purse the AN IX or AN XI of course. Lighting fast. Makes you hum the Tralala song while out head hunting. Something like that. And so we come to the end of the story. I would like to thank you all for your comments and participation in this long and interesting thread. Cheers.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Oct 18, 2018 13:21:20 GMT
Thank you Uhlan for such a detailed article of your work and some history. And of course your efforts show in those two beautifully restored pieces.
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Oct 18, 2018 14:19:48 GMT
Thanks and I am glad you enjoyed the story.
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Post by berntk on Oct 18, 2018 14:56:14 GMT
That's some beautiful work! If you don't mind, I have a short question; I'm sure you have mentioned it somewhere...: Your swordknots/ portepées are great, strong, thick, powerful and very nice. Do you make them yourself, or is there some source? The Pakistani ones offered on ebay are disgustingly thin and flimsy, and hardly worth putting on a nice sword.
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on Oct 18, 2018 17:25:02 GMT
Thank you bernt. Some I buy, like these Swedes and the French one and some I make myself. Most of the leather Troopers knots are easy to do. Those Turk head loops on the Swedes for instance are quite easy to do. Youtube has channel after channel explaining how they are made. Get some old belts, a good cutting knife and some thin leather for the detailing and your good to go for a fraction of the cost. The Officers knots are in another category. Here sometimes the Pakistany knots are quite good, albeit a bit too flashy, as in too new and shiny. So, when needed, I try to ,,age'' them a bit by literally rolling them in some dirt. It must be said though that the antique Officers knots are of a quality you will not find in modern makes. Sometimes you get lucky and have a sabre with the original knot attached for a really good price, so you have the knot for free. Via Google Images you'll find good deals for knots and good pictures of originals.
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Post by traks1 on Oct 18, 2018 19:29:35 GMT
Lovely curtains...
Seriously though, great thread from start to finish. Much appreciated. One learned stuff.
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