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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2018 23:30:18 GMT
For .380 acp, I have always used Winchester Silver Tips. Has anyone found any .380 acp ammo that performs as well as some 9mm?
Can not find a 380 vs. 9mm ballistic result comparison chart showing at least:
1. expansion; 2. penetration; AND 3. muzzle energy. Then I look to velocity for muzzle flip, taking into consideration the pistol I will fire it from. Then I test shoot them.
Note: Had high hopes for the Sig 365 9mm, but with all the bugs in it, I am sticking with a Seecamp 380 for no hassle deep cover.
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Post by Croccifixio on Aug 29, 2018 0:54:05 GMT
Funny you should bring this up. I've been carrying my Baby Rock 380 the past month, and carry a locally-made multishot projectile. It's basically an FMJ that's shorter than usual with an additional 2 discs inside. Haven't tested it on meat or gel, but the results on paper are impressive. It accurately makes 3 380-sized holes clumped together. So I presumably get the same penetration as FMJ 380 (which is good) without the slowdown of a hollowpoint (which is normally bad on 380).
Here's some nice Paul Harrell videos on the subject:
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tonystark
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“I told you, I don’t want to join your super secret boy band!”
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Post by tonystark on Aug 29, 2018 1:03:49 GMT
I agree with Crocc’s assessment and choice of videos. Nobody shows the effectiveness of .380 quite like Mr. Harrell! I’d check DoubleTap .380 or Federal Hydrashock’s new .380 “Deep” ammo, it was just showcased at 2018’s Shot Show.
I know these videos are older, but both brands of ammo are tested very thoroughly.
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Post by shotokan on Aug 29, 2018 1:42:19 GMT
Before my father-in-law passed away he and I used to sift through ammo reviews on youtube looking for for the best ammo in the micro 9mm class. We were both carrying the Sig P938. The best ammo we found in terms of penetration and expansion was the Federal Premium HST 147 grain Tactical. This ammo shoots like a dream and expands perfectly.
I'm willing to bet that it's .380 counterpart would give you the results you're looking for. And if not, it's roughly $25/box of 50. Not much to lose to find out.
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Post by Verity on Aug 29, 2018 2:10:32 GMT
I also love HST.... I carry its much bigger brother though. But same round (230 gr HST in .45).
And no I'm not a .45 purist.
I also have HST in 165 gr .40 and also 9mm (can't remember grain off hand).
I also keep a bunch of Winchester Ranger Talons around too. I tend to buy either Talons or , whichever is in stock when I decide to add to the stash.
I'll also watch this thread with some interest as the Mrs recently picked up a 1955 browning which is chambered in .380. So we'll need something to feed it. 😂
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Post by howler on Aug 29, 2018 7:04:06 GMT
Funny you should bring this up. I've been carrying my Baby Rock 380 the past month, and carry a locally-made multishot projectile. It's basically an FMJ that's shorter than usual with an additional 2 discs inside. Haven't tested it on meat or gel, but the results on paper are impressive. It accurately makes 3 380-sized holes clumped together. So I presumably get the same penetration as FMJ 380 (which is good) without the slowdown of a hollowpoint (which is normally bad on 380). Here's some nice Paul Harrell videos on the subject: Really like Harrell vids. On .380 ACP you really got to make sure you get adequate penetration (including potential clothing) before focusing on expansion and energy transfer because you will probably not have a lot of the latter two to work with after proper penetration. .380 is really for mouse guns and those folks with physical issues who cannot handle 9mm.
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Post by howler on Aug 29, 2018 7:06:17 GMT
I also love HST.... I carry its much bigger brother though. But same round (230 gr HST in .45). And no I'm not a .45 purist. I also have HST in 165 gr .40 and also 9mm (can't remember grain off hand). I also keep a bunch of Winchester Ranger Talons around too. I tend to buy either Talons or , whichever is in stock when I decide to add to the stash. I'll also watch this thread with some interest as the Mrs recently picked up a 1955 browning which is chambered in .380. So we'll need something to feed it. 😂 HST is pretty great, particularly the expansion.
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Post by howler on Aug 29, 2018 7:16:47 GMT
For .380 acp, I have always used Winchester Silver Tips. Has anyone found any .380 acp ammo that performs as well as some 9mm? Can not find a 380 vs. 9mm ballistic result comparison chart showing at least: 1. expansion; 2. penetration; AND 3. muzzle energy. Note: Had high hopes for the Sig 365 9mm, but with all the bugs in it, I am sticking with a Seecamp 380 for no hassle deep cover. I haven't kept up with the newest performance rounds as of late, but remember (generally) that the trick with .380 is making sure the penetration was up to snuff, even to the point of just using FMJ. Expansion would be my next criteria, followed by energy, which would be rather poor compared to the standard calibers (9, 40, 45). But hey, my Kel-Tec .P3AT weighs under 7oz. and can literally be carried in a front shirt pocket, so something lost is something gained.
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Post by L Driggers (fallen) on Aug 29, 2018 18:02:10 GMT
If you want 9mm performance you are going to have to get a 9mm.
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Post by howler on Aug 29, 2018 19:01:10 GMT
If you want 9mm performance you are going to have to get a 9mm. Yup. With roughly twice the energy to play around with.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2018 23:47:18 GMT
Thanks for everyone's comments so far. My preferred defense round is a 45 acp JHP at 800 fps (big and slow). My favorite defensive pistols include a Sig Sauer P 227 Carry (45 acp), Sig Sauer P229 E2 Grips in 40. and a Glock 23 (40.). But all these pistols mega print in my front pocket! Haha!....eh. Even subcompacts print too much for me. But, I really like front pocket carry. The Seecamp 380 does not print at all. My car keys/fob print more than it. If there is a 9mm pistol that does not print in a front pocket, please let me know. According to this data, of the rounds tested, the 380 Hornady 90 grain FTX Critical Defense is most effective for penetration and expansion. www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/#380ACPSee 9mm tests for comparison www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/#9mmAccording to this data, of the rounds tested, the 380 Buffalo Bore 90 grain jhp +p is most effective for muzzle energy from a 2 inch barrel. www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/megraphs/380auto2010.htmlSee 9mm tests for comparison www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/megraphs/9mm.htmlInfact, both of these rounds perform as good as some 9mm for specific tests. However, both rounds were not in same tests and these tests are not comprehensive and do not include the latest and greatest.
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Post by Verity on Aug 30, 2018 2:23:50 GMT
Thanks for everyone's comments so far. My preferred defense round is a 45 acp JHP at 800 fps (big and slow). My favorite defensive pistols include a Sig Sauer P 227 Carry (45 acp), Sig Sauer P229 E2 Grips in 40. and a Glock 23 (40.). But all these pistols mega print in my front pocket! Haha!....eh. Even subcompacts print too much for me. But, I really like front pocket carry. Dunno your body type, BUT: My usual carry is a Springfield XD compact in .45 (229/G23 size). Also sometimes carry a full-size G17 or G22, or have also carried SIG 229 SAS or 228... I use a Crossbreed Super Tuck Deluxe (have one for each of the above) and the pistols DISAPPEAR. Even with cargo shorts and a T-shirt. They VANISH. Wearing formal wear with a tucked in dress shirt is also a snap due to the tuckable nature of the holster. Weight aside. Physical dimensions should NOT be an issue with the right holster. I carry full frame autos all day no problems with a super tuck. YMMV, but I am not one to sacrifice a good pistol for size. Get the right rig and it doesn't matter
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Post by howler on Aug 30, 2018 4:16:56 GMT
Thanks for everyone's comments so far. My preferred defense round is a 45 acp JHP at 800 fps (big and slow). My favorite defensive pistols include a Sig Sauer P 227 Carry (45 acp), Sig Sauer P229 E2 Grips in 40. and a Glock 23 (40.). But all these pistols mega print in my front pocket! Haha!....eh. Even subcompacts print too much for me. But, I really like front pocket carry. The Seecamp 380 does not print at all. My car keys/fob print more than it. If there is a 9mm pistol that does not print in a front pocket, please let me know. According to this data, of the rounds tested, the 380 Hornady 90 grain FTX Critical Defense is most effective for penetration and expansion. www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/#380ACPSee 9mm tests for comparison www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/#9mmAccording to this data, of the rounds tested, the 380 Buffalo Bore 90 grain jhp +p is most effective for muzzle energy from a 2 inch barrel. www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/megraphs/380auto2010.htmlSee 9mm tests for comparison www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/megraphs/9mm.htmlInfact, both of these rounds perform as good as some 9mm for specific tests. However, both rounds were not in same tests and these tests are not comprehensive and do not include the latest and greatest. Kahr p9/40, Kel-Tec PF9, Sig p365 (I don't own the last, but it offers near double stack capacity in a single stack). For full size handguns, IWB or OWB (the way I carry), a good belt is a big deal.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2018 5:29:08 GMT
Very true Verity. I carried in and out the waist band. But, after a while it got old. Much easier and simpler for me, just to slip a mega light weight 6 + 1 rounds Seecamp 380 in my front pocket as I grab my car keys and head out. We have house and car guns and my wife can carry a pistol in her purse. Just searching for a more effective round than the Winchester Silver Tip (higher muzzle energy). I generally wear suit pants or other pants/shorts with loose front pockets. I'm 6 foot and 210 pounds. What I really like about front pocket carry, is how I can access the pistol inconspicuously during a potential threat. I simply slide my hand in my pocket and grab the pistol ready to go all inside the pocket, without anyone seeing or knowing what I am doing. Thanks howler. Those guns are still too big. LOL! Although, I would have made the Sig 365 work, but it's got too many bugs currently. I am thinking of getting a rohrbaugh r9. I think it's still the smallest 9mm. No longer made, but sell used. But they had issues. The Seecamp is mega reliable and mega tough. Here is a Seecamp video that's shows overlays of other pistols to show size comparison: www.seecamp.com/overlays.htmStill searching for a 380 acp round with consistent expansion diameter of .50 or more, penetration of 12 inches or more, 2 inch barrel muzzle energy of 230 ft lbs or more, all at a velocity around 900 to 1,000 fps, that feeds reliably. Note: The 380 acp bullet is the same diameter as the 9mm. The 380 casing is shorter and smaller in diameter than the 9mm.
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Post by howler on Aug 30, 2018 20:24:49 GMT
Very true Verity. I carried in and out the waist band. But, after a while it got old. Much easier and simpler for me, just to slip a mega light weight 6 + 1 rounds Seecamp 380 in my front pocket as I grab my car keys and head out. We have house and car guns and my wife can carry a pistol in her purse. Just searching for a more effective round than the Winchester Silver Tip (higher muzzle energy). I generally wear suit pants or other pants/shorts with loose front pockets. I'm 6 foot and 210 pounds. What I really like about front pocket carry, is how I can access the pistol inconspicuously during a potential threat. I simply slide my hand in my pocket and grab the pistol ready to go all inside the pocket, without anyone seeing or knowing what I am doing. Thanks howler. Those guns are still too big. LOL! Although, I would have made the Sig 365 work, but it's got too many bugs currently. I am thinking of getting a rohrbaugh r9. I think it's still the smallest 9mm. No longer made, but sell used. But they had issues. The Seecamp is mega reliable and mega tough. Here is a Seecamp video that's shows overlays of other pistols to show size comparison: www.seecamp.com/overlays.htmStill searching for a 380 acp round with consistent expansion diameter of .50 or more, penetration of 12 inches or more, 2 inch barrel muzzle energy of 230 ft lbs or more, all at a velocity around 900 to 1,000 fps, that feeds reliably. Note: The 380 acp bullet is the same diameter as the 9mm. The 380 casing is shorter and smaller in diameter than the 9mm. The Kel-Tec PF9 comes close (pretty darn small, thin, light for a 9mm), but those mouse .380 have their own niche due to being a TRUE pocket gun.
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Post by Croccifixio on Aug 30, 2018 23:13:19 GMT
How bout a Shield in 45? :P Or even an XDE/XDS in 45? Either choice would be incredibly easy to conceal. God knows I’ve pined for either long enough (and still don’t have them).
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Post by Verity on Aug 30, 2018 23:17:08 GMT
How bout a Shield in 45? :P Or even an XDE/XDS in 45? Either choice would be incredibly easy to conceal. God knows I’ve pined for either long enough (and still don’t have them). I thought ballistic performance of the .45 REALLY suffers in under-4" barrels. Don't have stats off top of my head for results on performance but I really seem to remember the .45 really does need 4" to get good results
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Post by Croccifixio on Aug 30, 2018 23:22:30 GMT
How bout a Shield in 45? :P Or even an XDE/XDS in 45? Either choice would be incredibly easy to conceal. God knows I’ve pined for either long enough (and still don’t have them). I thought ballistic performance of the .45 REALLY suffers in under-4" barrels. Don't have stats off top of my head for results on performance but I really seem to remember the .45 really does need 4" to get good results If you check tnoutdoor9s videos on 45 ACP using the XDS, it does well even compared to a 5 inch Colt Government. The reason being it doesn’t expand as much, but makes up for it with very good penetration. You suffer maybe. 50-80 fps velocity drop.
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Post by howler on Aug 31, 2018 1:21:20 GMT
How bout a Shield in 45? Or even an XDE/XDS in 45? Either choice would be incredibly easy to conceal. God knows I’ve pined for either long enough (and still don’t have them). I thought ballistic performance of the .45 REALLY suffers in under-4" barrels. Don't have stats off top of my head for results on performance but I really seem to remember the .45 really does need 4" to get good results It is lightweight, high velocity rounds like the .357 magnum that REALLY take it in the shorts. The difference in performance between a 3" barrel (the minimum for .357, in my opinion) giving 485 fpe and a 1-7/8 inch snubby barrel giving 341 fpe, both using Buffalo Bore Tactical short barrel, low recoil/flash 125G ammo is just incredible. The heavier bullets (140g, 158g) do have less energy variance, however. And to think, this was using ammunition specifically designed for shorter barrels. Out of 4" barrels, that same 125g round gives you 579 fpe. Using a snubby to shoot .357 comes at quite the ballistic penalty.
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Post by Croccifixio on Aug 31, 2018 1:35:46 GMT
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