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Post by Verity on Aug 31, 2018 4:08:43 GMT
wow! Learn something new every day! Thanks!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2018 7:45:15 GMT
Crocc/Howler - Nice guns but too big.
I just emailed Seecamp for +p ammo recommendations. I will update thread with their response.
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Post by bluetrain on Aug 31, 2018 8:56:13 GMT
I think every cartridge performs better with longer barrels. The trend, however, is for shorter barrels--and bigger magazines. For an automatic, I don't think much is gained by having a shorter barrel. That is, unless you intend to carry it in your pocket, which apparently some do. But I think a longer barrel, especially in an automatic, gives a better balance. But it isn't that simple. Colt's so-called pocket hammerless models (the 1903 and 1908 models) had either a 4inch or 3 3/4 inch barrels. I suppose people used to have bigger pockets.
I thought the revolvers I had with three-inch barrels were really handy, enough so to justify any loss in performance. Longer barrel revolvers, six-inches and longer, can be really awkward. A five-inch barrel is a nice compromise and I had a delightful .357 Model 27, I think it was, with a five-inch barrel. But just try to find one.
For an automatic pistol, I think the longer barrels give a better balance and "point-ability." But that's just my opinion.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2018 9:24:34 GMT
bluetrain - I was just thinking of all the pistols I have owned and or shot over the years, my favorite pistol to shoot is still the Colt 1911 45 acp government model (5 inch barrel). For the very reasons you mentioned.
Specifically, a Colt 1991 A1. It is a no frills model black parkerized. It was discontinued back in the late 1990s I think. It was the cheapest Colt 45 acp I ever bought and the only 1911 I have ever owned, that was 100% reliable with any type of ammo, right out of the box.
Don't know why it was discontinued as it gained a reputation as one of the few Colts that was very reliable right out of the box, even with semi wad cutters.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2018 12:02:24 GMT
That was fast. Seecamp replied to email. They do not recommend using any +P ammo in any of their pistols.
Will search for highest 2 inch barrel, muzzle energy, JHP ammo I can find.
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Post by bluetrain on Aug 31, 2018 15:48:16 GMT
My favorite pistol of all I have owned, if I had to pick just one, would be the Colt Commander in .45, lightweight model. Easy to shoot and the weight difference was significant, compared with a full-size Government Model. But the hardest gun to shoot that I ever had was a Officer's ACP, also lightweight. Really a handful to shoot. I don't know why I don't have any of those models but I do have a Colt .38 Super, which I think is a little better for certain uses. I also have a .45 but it's a Walther.
Honestly, it's really difficult to pick favorites.
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Post by howler on Aug 31, 2018 19:27:16 GMT
That was fast. Seecamp replied to email. They do not recommend using any +P ammo in any of their pistols. Will search for highest 2 inch barrel, muzzle energy, JHP ammo I can find. Just make sure the penetration levels (including clothing) are up to your desired level of performance.
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Post by Croccifixio on Sept 1, 2018 1:25:13 GMT
My favorite pistol of all I have owned, if I had to pick just one, would be the Colt Commander in .45, lightweight model. Easy to shoot and the weight difference was significant, compared with a full-size Government Model. But the hardest gun to shoot that I ever had was a Officer's ACP, also lightweight. Really a handful to shoot. I don't know why I don't have any of those models but I do have a Colt .38 Super, which I think is a little better for certain uses. I also have a .45 but it's a Walther. Honestly, it's really difficult to pick favorites. Right on the money there. My favorite gun changes every week. Right now I'm a bit Glockish but I'm sure by next week I'll be back to the 1911.
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Post by bluetrain on Sept 1, 2018 12:41:55 GMT
Regarding short-barreled handguns in general, one disadvantage is that the shorter barrels usually have a greater blast, although that is not true for all calibers. A .22 rimfire has virtually no blast, except that the recoil might be more than you would expect. A few .380 pistols have practically no more recoil (kick) than a .22 and naturally, some kick more than you might expect they would have. A Makarov (in 9mm Mak, of course) has a real kick and a .380 PPK isn't all that pleasant to shoot. The handguns with significant blast are the magnum revolvers, even a .357 (I have no experience with smaller magnum cartridges) but you don't get the performance without it. Blast is not the same as kick or recoil, however. The kick is related to bullet weight and the lighter .357 bullet loads aren't so bad to shoot, but the blast is still there.
There is also the issue of flash, which might be important when it's dark. That's related to the powder used more than anything but I haven't done enough shooting in the dark to comment further. I'm not counting when I close my eyes, of course.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2018 13:07:23 GMT
Seecamp recommends the following non +P ammo:
Winchester Silvertip 85gr. HP Federal Premium Hydra Shok 90gr. JHP Aguila 90gr. JHP PMC Gold 95gr. Starfire HP (SFHP) Remington UMC 88GR JHP
There are some + P 380 acp ammo that perform at the non + P 9mm level. However, Seecamp told me, no +P. In fact, I found some instances of some +P 380 ammo causing the Seecamp slide to slide all the way off!?! LOL!
I have used the Silvertips for years. I may change to the Hydra Shoks. However, from what I see currently available, some non + P ammo has adequate penetration and expansion but mega weak muzzle energy out of a 2 inch barrel. As in 125 - 150 ft. lbs max. The Average non + 9mm muzzle energy, out of 2 inch barrel is 250 and up ft. lbs. Big difference. 380 muzzle energy goes up with a longer barrel, but if I could pocket carry a longer barrel, I would carry a larger caliber.
Can still find the discontinued Rohrbaugh R9s (very small and flat, 6 + 1, 2.9 inch barrel, semi auto, 9 mm pistol) NIB. I like front pocket carry so much, I may get it as it appears to be my only effective front pocket carry option. Although, it is known for light primer strikes with some ammo and the springs must be changed every 200 rounds or so.
Thanks for everyones input.
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Post by reynolds on Oct 28, 2018 17:20:26 GMT
if you grind the hell out of the corners of a Kahr CM9, and use a kydex pocket holster, it looks just like a wallet. I prefer the back pocket rig, unless I'm wearing a back pocket. then the rig moves to the front pants pocket. None of the 147 gr jhp's expand in animals from 3" barrels, the non plus p variant wont do so from 4" barrels. So about a third of their pathetic 250 ft lbs of 'power" is wasted on overpenetration of the man. A hot-loaded 380 Silvertip, in a locked breech gun, performs considerably better on animals. because it's got 300 ft lbs and actually does expand in vital organs, factory jhp 380's dont expand and wont reliably stop a coon or chuck. Neither will 230 gr .45 jhp/s, non plus P, from 3" barrels. Same reason, lack of adequate velocity to move enough fluid filled tissue into and out of the nose cavity, fast enough, to cause the hp's lips to peel-open.
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Post by bluetrain on Oct 28, 2018 19:38:50 GMT
There are people who are as happy as can be with a .22 rimfire, you know.
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Post by reynolds on Oct 28, 2018 23:42:39 GMT
sure, .22's do fine for novice- practice and plinking. None who've had to shoot people or even animals with a .22lr, would be happy with a .22lr pistol for self defense. Granted, .25. factory .32, and most 38 and 380 loads are just bluffs, too. They are just 50-50 as to whether or not a good hit will stop the attacket. At least 3/4 of the time, tho, all you have to do is show the (ready) gun with a determined look on your face, and the attackers flee, IF they can see the gun, which is not always the case, at night, eh? and IF you get it pointed at them while they are at least 6 ft away, as you back up (carefully). If you can't back up, better have 10 ft between you. Misses have changed a lot of minds, too. Most attacks are not made with a gun
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Post by reynolds on Oct 28, 2018 23:47:40 GMT
a shorty .22lr has PLENTY enough blast, in a small room, to make you hunch over and grab both ears. Outdoors,with a rifle, sure, not much, but that's rarely how it goes for self defense. If your 380 has 2x the momentum of a .22lr, then it will have 2x as much recoil, if the gun size and weight are the same. That's just basic physics. Recoil is momentum. .22lr, in a short barrel is 36 grs at 850 fps. the 380 is 90 grs at the same speed. Therefore, the 380 will have a 7.65 recoil-factor, while the .22lr has just a 3.2 factor
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Post by reynolds on Oct 28, 2018 23:55:51 GMT
if you want to know what's what, you have to go see what wins the IDPA and IPSC (service division, not the raceguns) The guns that the champs use are the easiest to get fast hits with. The Glock, 1911, XD, seem to be where it's at, in the full sized guns. Some of them, however, notably the 1911, lose a lot of reliability when you chop them down to ccw size and the .45 is marginally controlable in such guns. Remember, you can be facing more than one opponent, they get to start first, choose the time, place and victim, and use very easy to control, very cheap to be skilled with. 22lr sport autos, like the buckmark or Ruger 4" barreled models. Offensive wounding is often fatal. Yes, you might be able to kill them with your .45, but then you bleed out from the .22lr or die of the infection. Stopping ability and lethality are only distantly related. the .22 is enough for criminals, but it's not enough for defenders. The distance is almost always 5m or less and almost anyone can hit you 4x per second with a .22lr auto at such distances. ANY hit that they get, even with a "mere" .22lr handgun can maim you for life. Shattered ankle, knee, wrist, elbow, etc. A .22lr hole in your liver is highly likely to result in your (eventual) death. Being that fast and accurate with a lw, compact .45 takes a lot of training and a lot of very expensive ammo.
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Post by bluetrain on Oct 29, 2018 9:12:16 GMT
I don't worry so much about self-defense from people where I live and go but Rex Applegate did. After his army career, he worked as a bodyguard and did other similar activities. He stated that he carried a .22 pistol for a while, a Hi-Standard, I think, but he never shot anyone with it. Then he carried a S&W small-frame revolver in .38 S&W. He did use that to shoot someone but was disappointed when the person he shot didn't fly over backwards and die (my words). He urged S&W to make a similar revolver in .38 Special, which they eventually did, the Centennial, more recently the Model 442. These days, of course, I suppose no one recommends using a .38 Special.
I have only seen one publication which illustrated bullet wounds and, frankly, they weren't all that different. I have my doubts that the differences between different cartridges is enough to worry about. But it might depend on circumstances. Possible scenarios are all over the place. Take distance, for example.
At the indoor range I used to belong to, twenty-five yards was the greatest distance. It seemed like a long ways. Yet, at home, the distance from my basement door to the path in the woods was also twenty-five yards and it seemed pretty close. You will notice blast, kick or recoil and the sound when you shoot a gun under controlled circumstances, such as when you're on the range. Believe me, you won't notice it when you fire a gun in an emergency or even when you aren't expecting it. With some calibers, as others have mentioned, the second shot might be problematic. Overall, though, I'd say that "carry-ability" would be a prime factor, meaning you may not really want to carry a Model 29 revolver around all the time like Elmer Keith did if you don't live where he did, which was apparently one of the most dangerous places on earth. Naturally, there will be compromises.
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Post by reynolds on Oct 29, 2018 19:06:42 GMT
you shouldn't notice the blast at all in normal cirumstances, cause you should have brains enough to be wearing ear protection. You'll notice even a "mere" .22lr PLENTY if you fire it in a small room or inside of a vehicle, I promise you. Most attacks are not made with a gun. Much of the time, attacks are made in poor light, where muzzleflashes are very much amplified. The distance is rarely more than 5m. You're not entitled to shoot at somebody who's just in your backyard, and at 25 yds, you're almost certain to miss him, anyway, if you're underfire. So the thing to do is run/diver for cover. If there's no cover, drop to fetal, feet towards the threat, brace your wrists between your knees and hold off, high and towards the butt of your gun, cause the horiztonal hold of the gun messes up the relationship between gravity and your sights. Most shots in pistol combat completely miss the man at a mere 5m and they mostly miss the vitals at 10 FT. People don't just stand there, being shot-at,and the muzzleblasts and flash DO make you flinch, as does the threat of incoming rounds/blows. Forget about the stand there and shoot carefully at 25m bs, it's not going to work
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Post by reynolds on Oct 29, 2018 19:14:29 GMT
lethality and stopping power are only distantly related. I can cause your death with an injection of AIDS blood, but it will probably take a year or more for your heart to stop beating. I can stop you instantly with a ball bat across your guts, and you'll (probably) be fine in a few days. You most assuredly WILL notice the difference between hitting chucks and coons with a .22 Short, 29 grs, 950 fps from a rifle, and a ..17HMR, 25 grs at 2450 fps. One has 90 ft lbs, and one has 350 ft lbs. Shoot some big feral dogs with a 110 gr .357 jhp at 1500 fps, or a 100 gr 380 at 900 fps. You'll REALLY notice the difference in effect then! Nearly all of the chest hit 380 dogs will run off, 50ft-50m, before falling to blood loss. Those hit in the chest with the 357 will mostly fold on the spot, or will run at most 2 seconds.
Animals dont have psychological reactions. people DO, however, and most will collapse with a pretty meaningnless (physically) sort of hit. The shock and pain just overwhelm their ability to carry on. About 1 in 10 or 20 people, tho, if really intent on killing you, require your blowing their brains out, or they'll carry on for 5-10 seconds, and they can shoot or stab you 4x per second, with each hand. So you hit them as hard as you can, as often as you can, and be ready to brain them if you need to do so.
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Post by bluetrain on Oct 29, 2018 20:58:43 GMT
Although humans will have a psychological reaction (sometimes animals will, too, but you can't count on it) but the physiological reaction can vary greatly. Some people, especially the bad guys, probably have a greater tolerance to pain than the rest of us, because they've been in fights before. Think of boxers and how they can take a lot of physical punishment, although they still get knocked down with some frequency. Don't think the bad guys are cowards. They just know when it isn't worth it to try something.
Where are all these feral dogs I keep reading about. One post on another forum even mentioned feral cattle.
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Post by reynolds on Oct 30, 2018 0:30:04 GMT
dont think I ever mentioned feral cattle? The dogs are often a problem in cattle or horse country. In CO, if you see one on your pasture, with livestock in that same enclosure, you can legally shoot them and most people do. years ago, I lived where there used to be a dog pound at the edge of a small town. It had been closed, but most people did not know that. So they'd drive there, intending to have their dog adopted or put-down, and end up just dumping it off. This created a lot of problems in the area. My good friend the sheriff told me to shoot all of them I could, and it totaled scores of them over the years. If you can call in enough coyotes to learn the lessons I learned, good for you. There's a lot to be learned about penetration and expansion on coons and chucks, too. Just shoot them longways. you'll find out that overpenetration is MUCH more of a problem than under penetration. A man's heart is only 3" deep in his chest. His lung is 1-2" deep. depending upon how much muscle and fat he has on his pecs. A bullet need not completely pierce an organ to ruin said organ, you know. The fed's recommendation for 12" of penetration in jell is 15" in flesh and blood. That 8 million $ "study" (in today's money) was undertaken to blame the 9mm silvertip for the 40+ COMPLETE misses that the 8 feds fired at platt in miami (from 5m and less of distance) YOU better not scatter rds around town like cops do, and you'd better not be shooting at what you can't SEE (ie, behind cars, etc. You have no idea whether or not a kid is hiding in the seat of that car, and if your bullet hits him, guess WHAT? 20 years in prison and millions of $ of lawsuit, that's what! Also, cops can shoot people who are sideways to them, unaware of the cop as he fires at others, etc, You'd BETTER NOT! So civilian ammo does not need anything like the penetration recommended for cop ammo. 8", in flesh and blood, is all you want or need.
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