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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2008 5:41:30 GMT
Hi all, I'm new here, and new to swords too. I do not own any. I'm one of those who got sucked into the sword craze by coveting the Lord of the Rings replicas. Fortunately I never bought one of those SLOs before learning the truth about them. Recently I decided to get a sword, ironically for actually hanging on my wall, and in my research have learned much (and it is fascinating). And now I want to get a REAL sword instead, to practice and learn with, and of course to proudly hang on my wall. But I have no experience handling swords, so a sharpened one is out of the question, right, until I have sufficient experience? Besides the price tag I love the Elven King's Sword by Gen 2. Also the Black Prince and Albrecht. Definitely Medieval European style (or Lord of the Rings). But my problem is that most swords are sharpened, and naturally most reviews feature sharpened swords. As for price, sadly I think $200 would be my max, (less is better!) especially with shipping to consider. What might be a good first sword for me?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2008 5:47:10 GMT
I was in your position a few weeks ago, and bought a Valiant Armoury Atrim Practical Longsword. They come in the blunt variety as well. However, with shipping its gonna cost you 55 dollars more than what you're looking to spend.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2008 7:57:52 GMT
Thanks, longsword, I'll keep that one in mind despite the price, as it does seem like a good sword. I went back to your thread to see what others were saying (nice to have someone else in the same position! . I was a little surprised you were going into cutting right away, as I understood it was highly discouraged without prior experience. We're about the same age by the way, I'm 21. And not overly big or strong yet. I don't know if that should effect my choice of sword or not. I haven't decided on a one-hander or a bastard. Has anyone tried Darksword Armoury's Faramir Sword yet? I can't find reviews anywhere. DSA seems to be good in general, and I like that they ship blunt, but I'd like to know more about 1345 specifically before I even consider it. Obviously my budget isn't very rigid. I might be persuaded to pay more if I'm getting something exceptional.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2008 9:21:04 GMT
Discouraged? By whom?!? As long as your willing to follow some safety tip and procedures, we're all for you learning to cut thing right away...and to so that, you need a SHARP sword . However, if a sharp sword makes you nervous, no fret, DSA does indeed ship their swords with a false edge...as does windlass. I would point you more to the windlass in this case over the DSA as the windlass can be easily sharpened if you so choose later on...the DSA...not so much...even with the new thinner edge. DSA are TOUGH little buggers. And making somebody new sharpen a DSA is just mean. Another option is to get a wooden waster to practice stokes with and a sharp sword to hang on the wall until you feel your ready. And finally, the black prince is not a very good sword if you want to cut thing with it. It is in fact a rather HORRIBLE sword to do that with...by design and no fault of gen 2 . It is in fact a very lovely XVa sword (I have one that brian customized with faceted moonstones set in and everything ).
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2008 9:57:47 GMT
Once you recieve which ever sword you decide on definitely get out and do some cutting. Targets like old milk jugs are absolutely great to start out with even for someone with no experience.
Little secret for you, while everyone here respects the various sword arts there are a lot of us that don't have any formal training. So watch some cutting vids get your self a sword and have fun. Just be safe.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2008 16:09:49 GMT
If it is LOTR you are interested in then there are only three companies that make functional versions of the swords. They are Dark Sword Armory, Generation 2, and Martial Edge. Since the swords are not based on historic it seems the ones produced have a tendency to be on the heavy side if you are not used to wielding a sword to cut things. The only one which might be manageable is the Hobbit Sting made by Martial Edge. No reviews on it yet but it is likely similar to the Sting made by Generation 2 which was reviewed here. www.sword-buyers-guide.com/lord-of-the-rings-swords.html
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2008 18:36:17 GMT
Thanks everyone. It always fascinated me in LotR when Bilbo effortlessly stuck Sting deep into a wood beam. ;D A sharp Sting would be fun indeed, but it's too short for my liking, for my first sword. Sometime down the future though, for sure. They should be even easier to find when the movie comes out. It's too bad the LotR swords have been heavy. At least it gives me something to look forward to. My second sword, perhaps. Hey, even Aragorn didn't start training with Anduril, why should I? I still don't feel comfortable with the sharp edge. I'm happy to learn the moves, and hit a target of some sort. Then move on to cutting. I have an outdoor cat that can be too friendly for his own good and a mother who would worry, so at least I can treat a blunt sword like a sharp one and see how it goes. With a blunt one I don't have to be as worried about cutting myself open with no one home; I can practice a bit more freely perhaps. All that said, wooden waster first + sharp sword = possibility. Now, can someone please explain about the XVa, etc. classifications or point me in the direction of where I can learn about it? First saw that term last night but didn't find much by google searching.
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Post by randomnobody on Jul 2, 2008 18:48:14 GMT
Research Oakeshott Typology or just do a Google for Ewart Oakeshott. You should be able to find all the info there. I forget who did a more detailed study on guard and pommel types, but if you can find that, too, you'll be set. As to dull swords, well, since it seems you're leaning toward European, Windlass is probably a good place to start. They have a wide selection of swords that are quite good for accuracy, but their structural integrity tends to vary and the blades are sometimes overly flexible, but they all come with...was it 0.7 or 1 millimeter edge? Anyway, they're "blunt" so no worries. "Blunt" is in quotes because even a "blunt" sword can still cut with the right technique so bear that in mind. Windlass swords go all over the pricing spectrum but many can be had under $200. DSA is another option, their edges (at least on old models, I keep hearing the new ones are less so) are quite thick, but the swords generally are rather heavy and accuracy is almost always questionable at best, but they're very solid swords overall. Quite a few are available for $200 and less. Then there's Del Tin, which runs high in price, and weight, but are fantastic swords and true to historic examples, and ship blunt. Of course, these effectively double your desired price. Just threw it out there as a blunt option, though. Then there are the Valiant AT blunts. A bit high, those, but another option no less. I think Hanwei's federschwert can be had on the extremely-cheap, and it is a genuine training blunt as per uh...one of those guys' actual texts. I forget whom. Then there's Hanwei's Tinker line (are they out yet?) which will retail direct for just over $300, but will probably be available for $200-250 elsewhere.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Jul 2, 2008 18:49:45 GMT
while there is no need for you to not get a sharp sword at first, please, please, PLEASE make a waster that is similar in size and weight to practice with and please, please, PLEASE practice with it until you are comfortable with it and know exactly where it will go and what it will do when you swing it. practice with your waster/shinai/boken/padded stick etc. at full speed and strength cutting imaginary targets. read the posts in the WMA, JSA, and cutting vids boards to get insight on techniques. yes, Japanese Sword Arts (JSA) have many techniques that will be usefull to Wester Martial Arts (WMA) swordsmen and vice versa. if you aren't trying to lear one specific school of swordfighting then take bits and parts from anything you can and make your own with what works for you. Cutting is fun and you can enjoy it as a newbie if you are careful. for an excellent example of a newbie being careful watch Shippofoxes videos. here's one: /index.cgi?board=cutting&action=display&thread=5457 notice how slow and deliberate he moves? that's a good thing. all too often new folks wail away and thrash about thinking speed and force will make up for lack of skill.
Please note: when I say "full strength and speed" I do not mean "as fast and hard as you can possibly swing it" I mean "at the speed and strength needed to do the proper cutting" or maybe just a little bit faster and harder than is strictly needed. it is easier to back off your speed and power to gain control than it is to ratchet up your speed and power and keep control. so learn harder and faster than you will use and it will increase your control.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2008 19:59:08 GMT
On a side note...false edge swords are STILL real swords. If you accidently hit fluffy with one vs a sharp sword, fluffy will still be dead. You can still cut open your leg pretty deep with one as well. You sould never be handling or cutting by yourself. Always have somebody around to call 911...just in case. For your worries, I HIGHLY recommend getting a waster first...either wooden or steel if you choose. Hanwei makes some cheap steel wasters that KoA sells for around a 100 dollars. Good wooden wasters will run you close to that...but wooden wasters can be made for around 10 dollars of material and some time .
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Post by randomnobody on Jul 2, 2008 20:16:21 GMT
Oh yeah, I forgot about the Practical line from Hanwei. They're good, too.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2008 20:26:37 GMT
Yeah just get hanwei stuff from a good dealer so you don't have to deal with the cust serv. I have seen a few practical kats break in dojo cutting and have hanwei not honor their warranty because they were "abused" and not used for their designed purpose...WTF?!? This is actually the main reason I usher people towards cheness over hanwei actually. If their CS had been better and prompt in replacement, I don't think I would have steered as many people towards cheness. Although since ronin has the deshi for 400 bucks, I think I need to send people his way...if nothing else so I can see more of his works around here hehe.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2008 20:50:02 GMT
Hi Berethorn, Welcome and good luck with your purchase. I can't comment on these types of swords (I'm waiting for the glowing versions ), sorry. But it looks like you have lots of expert attention already I would also like to point you towards the Sword Safety threads at the top of this board. I just posted a revised version of the short list of safety rules that many here have contributed to. Special thanks should go to ShooterMike, Ianflaer, Bloodwraith and Swordboy for being so patient, and reading, commenting on, and adding to many different versions of this list. 1. NEVER SWING OR POINT A SWORD AT SOMETHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY OR SEVER.Swords are weapons and should always be treated as sharp and dangerous. Their purpose is to sever targets. Make sure anything you swing at or around should and can be severed. 2. ALWAYS HAVE A SAFE CUTTING AREA.Make sure the area is clear of objects you might trip over. Make sure the cutting stand(s) will not damage your sword and are stable. Make sure there are no others (especially children and pets) near the arc of the cut, or where the sword may land if it slips from your grasp. 3. ALL SWORDS ARE ALWAYS SHARP.Though some swords have dull edges, even a dull or unsharpened sword can cut severely. Treat every sword as if it has a keen edge and is capable of dealing a deep cut. 4. KNOW YOUR SWORD AND HOW IT MOVES. Before you cut, train and practice with your weapon so that you know where it will go, and when and how to stop it. Knowledge is power, forewarned is forearmed, proper preparation prevents pain. 5. BE PREPARED FOR THE WORST.Know proper First Aid procedures to treat serious cuts. Have a First Aid kit, phone and emergency contact available and easily accessible. You can go into shock very quickly even with smaller cuts, practice so that you will know how to respond faster than shock can set in. Sorry it is a bit off topic, but you may find it useful nonetheless. DJM
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2008 3:43:21 GMT
No, thanks, that's good stuff to point out to someone who's new! I've read the sword safety 101, and I hope to be careful at all times. And that is a good point: that even a blunt sword is still a real sword. But at least if it's blunt and I accidentally brush it against something (or fluffy brushes against it, as he's want to do), it shouldn't leave a mark. I'm happy I'm getting so many replies in less than 24 hours! You're a very welcoming bunch, for people whose hobby involves wielding lethal weapons. Thanks for the Oakeshott link, I'll check that out! The Hanwei Tinker line may be released, but I don't know if they're readily available yet. Maybe soon? They look nice...I would hope the price drops. Incidentally I see the Henry V, which looks very nice, is out soon. Good advice and video, ianflaer. Do you happen to know of any good tutorials for making one's own waster?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2008 6:13:46 GMT
Well even sharp swords aren't exactly razor touch it and get cut sharp. In fact I rest my gen 2 on my shoulder all the time and I can half sword it...and it is considered to be one of the sharper swords around. The danger comes when you have the sword in motion . So I wouldn't worry about fluffy around a sharp sword. My cat has hit my sharp gen 2 a few times and hasn't been hurt other then getting a scare. Now the time she knocked the sword off the display and it nearly landed on her is another matter entirely, but had she knocked over my del tin, the effect would have been the same. So basically what I'm saying is, other then in your head, the practical dangers of a false edged sword vs sharp sword is pretty much the same. I try very hard to get people who want false edge sword for "safety" reason from doing so since it isn't exactly safer. You want safer, get wasters and full blown blunts like the albion maestro series or hanwei practical line and such. However, that still does not help YOU. You don't want to be nervous when your wielding your sword. You also shouldn't be fearless and reckless either, but being nervous is just as bad. I feel that you do know to treat a sword with respect no matter what, so I would say you should get one that your comfortable with.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2008 2:32:03 GMT
Well, thank you, that is a bit reassuring, although I'm still thinking of someone I read about that cut their toe badly by accidentally hitting their toe against it. At the same time, I see that wielding a blunt sword could at least subconsciously induce a false sense of security.
While I decide about sharpness, does anyone have any tips on whether I should start with a one-hander or a bastard sword?
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Post by randomnobody on Jul 4, 2008 2:43:19 GMT
That last part is up to you. I tend to prefer a good, long two-hander, but my Hanwei Godfred and AT 1315 are my favorite swords for dry handling fun. Cutting, though, I have trouble with one-handers; two-handers are slightly better; ShooterMike can vouch for this.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Jul 4, 2008 5:01:24 GMT
Berethorn, wether you pick one or two handed sword depends on not only your preference but what sort of training you have at your disposal too. I mean which will you have more fun with: the sword shape you think looks coolest, or the sword type you can learn the best tricks with and have people around to train with? I know that's almost rhetorical it's so obvious BUT here's the rub: SEEK OUT TRAINING AND YOU WILL HAVE MORE FUN. training can be in the form of books and video to be studied at home, or real people who meet and teach. there are groups the do WMA (Western Martial Arts) that are very historically accurate but can be hard to find. there is the SCA (Society for Creative Anachronism) wich is a lot more fun, but sword styles are a lot less historical and quality of skill varies wildly from place to place BUT the SCA is easy to find almost anywhere in the USA and even in many other countries. umm I'm sure I'm missing something.
anyway if you want to do SCA or if you really like using a shield get a one-handed arming sword. If you are learning from a book/video or have a WMA (or similar) group you'll probably want a longsword/bastard sword.
get what you can have the most fun with.
EDIT: Oh and for the record: I tend to cut better with one-handed strokes.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2008 12:37:23 GMT
There is also albion, depending on how much you are looking to spend.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2008 18:06:54 GMT
Just a bit too pricey unfortunately. Am I right in assuming that they're considered one of the very best, though? In case I might see one for sale somewhere, this might be handy to know: can you go wrong with an Albion? I saw the "How It's Made" clip of Albion; pretty cool! I assume most sword are made that way however? As for one-handed or bastard; I'll probably both be learning at home and possibly joining SCA at some point too. I don't think there's a WMA group around here. And I am interested in fighting with a shield. So, perhaps a one-hander is good. I prefer the look of hand-and-a-half all the same. Just another thing I'll have to decide on.
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