Zen_Hydra
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Post by Zen_Hydra on Jul 19, 2018 18:01:54 GMT
I know many of the non-sword/knife weapons from Arms & Armor are made from cast steel. Are these cast items all mild steel, or are they made from a hardenable steel which is properly heat-treated?
I would hate to buy an axe or bec-de-corbyn and it just deform or break during reasonable use (i.e. mat cutting or armor over ballistics gel).
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2018 3:33:56 GMT
You can email Craig Johnson (or call) to ask specific requests. A friend of mine had requested a hardened Norlund and it was not the only time someone had requested such. I had an unhardened Norlund and had limbed a good size tree that had come down in a hurricane. No evident edge deformation. I could dig up an old thread Craig had replied to regarding their polearms and stood behind the facts that period arms were not hardened.
Your mileage may vary.
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Zen_Hydra
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Post by Zen_Hydra on Jul 20, 2018 13:11:32 GMT
I have some difficulty believing poleaxes and war-hammers designed to fight opponents in Late Middle Ages plate armor were not hardened steel.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2018 13:48:05 GMT
That's ok by me and the response I kind of expected. I'm sure you might feel the same way about swords. myarmoury.com/feature_bladehardness.htmlsbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/46261/steel-questionmyarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?p=8177myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=22448I have handled a couple of their Dane's axes and watched them survive ok over the decades of modern cutting (mats, etc) and as mentioned, used my Norlund to good effect with no edge issue. I also have a Freidrich spear. They do dozens of the javelins and there are some reports out about that can be read. A&A English bills and others, seemingly adored by their owners. I'll dig up Craig's remarks if you really need to read them but the reason they were not hard, was to avoid chipping. I would think as well that if you have already made up your mind, you might be satisfied with my previous post. I wonder what other manufacturer claims might be re polearms. I know Windlass spears are soft. I know my Windlass hammer is soft. I also know my carpentry and other hammers are only hardened on the face of them. Again as mentioned, talk to Craig if wanting something harder and want to buy from them.
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Post by mrbadexample on Jul 20, 2018 14:19:50 GMT
I've had no problems with un hardened heads from A and A. Craig has good evidence that they were not hardened in period, and the geometry of them is such that they are plenty tough. I'd trust the bill without reservation. I do have a custom type L Dane axe that Craig did for me about 10 years ago. It is differentially hardened, and they did a great job with it for not too much more than the cost of the stock axe.
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Zen_Hydra
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Post by Zen_Hydra on Jul 20, 2018 16:31:55 GMT
I think there is a pretty big difference in whether something like a bill would benefit from being hardened versus something like a crow's beak. I wouldn't be surprised if spikes/picks/beaks were deferentially hardened to take advantage of a hard striking surface and a tougher support structure. What would be the point of a can opener which couldn't bite into the can?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2018 19:58:26 GMT
Your mileage may vary.
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Post by mpsmith47304 on Jul 24, 2018 2:06:22 GMT
I think there is a pretty big difference in whether something like a bill would benefit from being hardened versus something like a crow's beak. I wouldn't be surprised if spikes/picks/beaks were deferentially hardened to take advantage of a hard striking surface and a tougher support structure. What would be the point of a can opener which couldn't bite into the can? Why would you think an unhardened spike couldn't penetrate hardened armor? It's all about local stresses exceeding tensile strengths. Pounds per square inch (or Newtons per square meter) The spike might get damaged, but it would be dead easy to hammer it or file it back into shape.
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Zen_Hydra
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Post by Zen_Hydra on Jul 24, 2018 2:35:55 GMT
I think there is a pretty big difference in whether something like a bill would benefit from being hardened versus something like a crow's beak. I wouldn't be surprised if spikes/picks/beaks were deferentially hardened to take advantage of a hard striking surface and a tougher support structure. What would be the point of a can opener which couldn't bite into the can? Why would you think an unhardened spike couldn't penetrate hardened armor? It's all about local stresses exceeding tensile strengths. Pounds per square inch (or Newtons per square meter) The spike might get damaged, but it would be dead easy to hammer it or file it back into shape. ...or it could be hardened and not be deformed by a couple solid strikes.
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Post by mpsmith47304 on Jul 24, 2018 3:08:51 GMT
Why would you think an unhardened spike couldn't penetrate hardened armor? It's all about local stresses exceeding tensile strengths. Pounds per square inch (or Newtons per square meter) The spike might get damaged, but it would be dead easy to hammer it or file it back into shape. ...or it could be hardened and not be deformed by a couple solid strikes. Hmmmm... I want to handle this carefully, as I don't want to come off as offensive, but rather conversational. Lots of folks have used unhardened warhammers, poleaxes and axes against hard targets without difficulties, or serious damage. If it ain't broke, why fix it? The weapon only has to be hard enough to do its job. And as we have seen, even period swords often were much softer than many modern high-end replicas. And keep in mind that MOST period armor would not be hardened "spring" steel (though some might). And I think contemporary users would not see routine maintenance as a downside. I think touching up edges, or straightening a spike would be looked at the same as a modern warrior cleaning and lubricating his gun.... or taking it to the unit armorer to replace a broken or worn out part. And I'm guessing you wouldn't be thrilled with fractures in the surface of a case-hardened weapon....
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Zen_Hydra
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Post by Zen_Hydra on Jul 24, 2018 3:41:35 GMT
...or it could be hardened and not be deformed by a couple solid strikes. Hmmmm... I want to handle this carefully, as I don't want to come off as offensive, but rather conversational. Lots of folks have used unhardened warhammers, poleaxes and axes against hard targets without difficulties, or serious damage. If it ain't broke, why fix it? The weapon only has to be hard enough to do its job. And as we have seen, even period swords often were much softer than many modern high-end replicas. And keep in mind that MOST period armor would not be hardened "spring" steel (though some might). And I think contemporary users would not see routine maintenance as a downside. I think touching up edges, or straightening a spike would be looked at the same as a modern warrior cleaning and lubricating his gun.... or taking it to the unit armorer to replace a broken or worn out part. And I'm guessing you wouldn't be thrilled with fractures in the surface of a case-hardened weapon.... If you want buttery soft iron for your Late Middle Age anti-plate weaponry, please to enjoy. Me...I prefer something which will widen an eye-slit and not require me to hammer it back into some semblance of the weapon it's supposed to be after every couple swings.
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Post by mpsmith47304 on Jul 24, 2018 14:32:11 GMT
Hmmmm... I want to handle this carefully, as I don't want to come off as offensive, but rather conversational. Lots of folks have used unhardened warhammers, poleaxes and axes against hard targets without difficulties, or serious damage. If it ain't broke, why fix it? The weapon only has to be hard enough to do its job. And as we have seen, even period swords often were much softer than many modern high-end replicas. And keep in mind that MOST period armor would not be hardened "spring" steel (though some might). And I think contemporary users would not see routine maintenance as a downside. I think touching up edges, or straightening a spike would be looked at the same as a modern warrior cleaning and lubricating his gun.... or taking it to the unit armorer to replace a broken or worn out part. And I'm guessing you wouldn't be thrilled with fractures in the surface of a case-hardened weapon.... If you want buttery soft iron for your Late Middle Age anti-plate weaponry, please to enjoy. Me...I prefer something which will widen an eye-slit `````````````and not require me to hammer it back into some semblance of the weapon it's supposed to be after every couple swings. But my point is that you might be putting the cart before the horse. Were period pole arms hardened? If not, you might ask yourself why. And have you experienced a problem with good quality modern replicas? Keep in mind that you aren't going to "harden" a pole weapon head the same as you would a swords. The geometry is different. And even so, making a pole weapon head "hard" would require high carbon steel.... which was expensive. And a pole weapon head made of high carbon steel and hardened is likely to fail in less desirable ways (breaking or even shattering, instead of bending). Low carbon steel, or even just wrought iron seems to be what most period pole weapon heads were made of. They wouldn't harden particularly well. If they were, it would be more like a case-hardening process where the very outer surface is infused with carbon and hardened. This created a hard surface that resists wear better, but the hardened layer is quite thin, and a damaged edge is likely to penetrate to the softer steel beneath. And the hardened layer will crack from fatigue as the soft metal underneath bends back and forth. These cracks can then form the basis of metal fatigue fractures that can propagate through the rest of the weapon's head. In any case, I'm not suggesting you are necessarily wrong here, but I am suggesting why you might actually prefer a softer metal head, especially since most in-period targets would not be hardened steel. But if you DO find a hardened poleaxe or the like, let us know what your test-cutting results are.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Aug 8, 2018 4:17:04 GMT
I have some difficulty believing poleaxes and war-hammers designed to fight opponents in Late Middle Ages plate armor were not hardened steel. Good ones are often laminated/composite, with iron bodies and high-carbon edges that have been quench-hardened. But not all of them are good. There are surviving Late Medieval polearms that haven't been quenched. Some are low-carbon, others have high-carbon bits but the head wasn't quenched. (There are ancient Chinese steel polearm heads that have been quench-hardened.) I don't recall seeing anything for spikes on Medieval warhammers. Hardening won't give as much benefit for a warhammer spike as for a cutting edge, but it would still be good. Here is a probably-hardened post-Medieval warhammer spike. Indian zaghnal, sanmei construction. The top one in this photo (the bottom one is modern, with a cast head):
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Aug 8, 2018 19:43:45 GMT
I can’t say with certainty but I think it’s safe to say there was no one standard of manufacture for medieval pole weapons but it varied depending on the smith, time, location, the size of one’s purse, and what was desired; something that should get the job done or something better than need be. Much like today.
My most used machete is of soft metal. I don’t know if it’s the carbon content, tempering, or both. The fact is I use it as much as the others combined. It was given to me shortly after arriving when I had no machete. It isn’t much to look at and showed hard use and abuse when I received it. There is no maker’s name on it and I suspect it was made by some local smith or brought into the country from an adjacent country and likewise made. It uses scales from an auto tire and is somewhat crudely made. I have others made of 1050-1075 steel as well as some of unknown but tough steel and all are more eye appealing, but it is this crude off brand machete that I’ll usually grab. It needs frequent sharpening but is easily repaired. On receiving one of my first CS machetes of Chinese manufacture and 1050 steel that was noticeably harder I decided to compare the two and cleaned out a cement lined drainage ditch with the CS that I routinely used the old for. I had my money on the CS. The CS worked as well and showed at least the same amount of edge damage as the old one. The difference came when restoring the edge. What use to take about 10 minutes took about 45 minutes and made me work. The old one was about as much trouble to repair as mpsmith’s comparison to a warrior cleaning a rifle, been there. If I know ground strikes will occur, here many rocks and some bits of concrete are involved, the old machete will be used for sure, forget the higher end “better steel” knives. That lowly ugly machete has them all beat.
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Post by WVfishguy on Aug 13, 2018 4:42:25 GMT
I have both the Windlass Dragon Hunter Fantasy Axe (which is my avatar) and Windlass Orleans Battle Axe, and both are forged, hardened steel. The Dragon Hunter is ridiculously strong, considering it is just a fantasy axe. The Dragon hunter is pretty much unusable as it comes from Windlass, but I bought it as a project axe. I also have the Cold Steel "Dane" axe, and it's also well tempered, but is twice as heavy as it should be. The Windlass hewing spear I have is soft as butter and poorly designed, with a weak spot which bends easily if you use it for hewing (sort of defeats the whole purpose.) I also have a Cold Steel war hammer and it's very tempered and very strong.
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Post by nathanh on Sept 30, 2018 10:32:50 GMT
I don't know the hardness of steels, but I have several A&A polaerms. Most of the production pieces hold up ok for my uses (backyard cutting). I had a couple custom pieces: an Italian glaive and a Swiss halberd. The gglaive was very soft steel and would bend on light targets. The halberd spike can bend a little too, but it's reinforced. That's interesting that A&A said polaerms weren't hardened. I used to think I had a lemon of a glaive but actually historically true.
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