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Post by Karoliner on Nov 5, 2015 23:45:41 GMT
Hey folks, I've been mulling some more bad ideas over in my head and I got to wondering- how would our modern mild steel compare to iron age weapons or lesser quality medieval weapons or tools? i.e. the Seax of Beagnoth, according to Wikipedia, is forged of iron. I can't imagine that this weapon would have been tempered or heat treated at all, would it? How would mild steel without any heat treating compare to such artifacts?
Would cheap, "work-a-day" period knives perform similar to a knife ground from modern mild steel?
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Nov 6, 2015 0:53:30 GMT
The Seax of Beagnoth is a pretty sancy seax, and I'd expect it to be pattern-welded with a high-carbon cutting edge. AFAIK, the condition of the surface is such that you can't tell from looking at it whether it's pattern-welded or not, even if you have it in-hand.
However, there are plenty of (early) low-carbon iron/steel swords out there, that were not quench-hardened. Some were work-hardened, but how effective this is depends on the alloy. They were competing with bronze blades, had similar hardness and toughness, and were (in the Iron Age) much cheaper. Iron = poor man's bronze. With steels, ferrous blades can be much better. Mild steel might do OK to simulate such blades.
(Pre-Iron Age meteoric iron blades are the exception of the "iron = cheaper" equation.)
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Post by Karoliner on Nov 6, 2015 1:23:16 GMT
I also would have expected the Beagnoth seax to be at least pattern welded based on the inscriptions, possibly with a welded steel edge like you mentioned. It's in an extraordinary state of preservation compared to other finds.
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Post by Karoliner on Nov 6, 2015 1:26:29 GMT
Anyway, my idea is to make a few wallhangers to practice my grinding, and also to try to heavily antique a few of them, similar to the Darksword "Excavation" line of weapons. Bonus points if it's similar in metallurgy or performance to original weapons.
A nicely rusted skeleton of a sword or seax with fittings, sitting on a charred oak plaque. I think it'll look pretty neat, and it's super cheap to boot.
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Scott
Member
Posts: 1,676
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Post by Scott on Nov 6, 2015 3:52:58 GMT
What period were you looking at. Finds from medieval London show most knives were iron with steel edges welded in. A number of different ways of doing this. I'm not sure how good or hard the steel was. As far making a knife from mild steel goes, it will take a good edge but not hold it well.
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Post by Karoliner on Nov 7, 2015 23:33:07 GMT
Anywhere from the Iron Age to early Viking age.
Sorry, I'm not well read on pre-Viking history, so, uh, maybe Celts or something? They used iron weapons, right? And Migration Period Germanic tribes.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Nov 8, 2015 2:35:15 GMT
I don't recall seeing a detailed analysis of Celtic/Migration/Viking knives. As for swords, it was a mix throughout that period, with a reduction in the fraction of swords made from iron/low-carbon (less than 0.2%) steel and an increase in carbon content over that time.
For Celtic swords (iirc, data was originally from Pleiner's book), about 40% were iron/low-carbon steel, and 60% piled or pattern-welded, with somewhat harder edges (200-300VPH, which is about 17-36HRC).
Williams gives a lot of detail for Ulfberht swords. Of his sample, about 20% were iron/low-carbon steel (hardness of about 100-200VPH, most of which range doesn't even make it onto the HRC scale). The pattern-welded blades with steel edges had edge hardness varying from about 200-500VPH (17-48HRC); the crucible steel ones were typically softer (200-300VPH (17-36HRC), with a few being substantially harder (450-470VPH, about 45-46HRC); iirc at least one of these had broken).
One still sees iron and low-carbon steel being used for polearm edges (both spears and cutting polearms) quite late.
Might be more important to have hard edges on a knife than a sword. Typically, one would cut more and more often with a knife. On the other hand, a lot of people value budget knives. (This hasn't changed over the last 2000 years. You can go and buy knives with edges well over 60HRC (without even getting into ceramic knives), and knives that quite soft. Given the edges that some people accept on kitchen knives, they don't feel much need for hardness.)
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Post by Karoliner on Nov 8, 2015 6:49:11 GMT
That is a wealth of information!
I'll do some research into Iron Age blade geometries and give it a go!
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Scott
Member
Posts: 1,676
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Post by Scott on Nov 9, 2015 11:39:21 GMT
You're looking at an earlier period than I've got information on, sorry I can't help. I've seen stuff on knives found in viking cemeteries but that only had images of the knives, they hadn't investigated the composition of the blades.
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Post by Croccifixio on Nov 9, 2015 13:27:15 GMT
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Nov 10, 2015 20:27:38 GMT
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Post by Karoliner on Nov 12, 2015 1:49:51 GMT
Ordered some 1018 steel last night. Also working with a local printer to have some stencils of the Beagnoth inscription made.
I think this is going to be an interesting project! I'll do some testing with the finished blade and might try to work-harden the edge before I antique it.
Anyone know how I would go about work-hardening the edge? I was thinking just banging on it very carefully with a small hammer would be sufficient.
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Post by Karoliner on Nov 15, 2015 1:54:24 GMT
Got the profile roughed out. Just need to tune it up some and I can start grinding the bevels. Oh boy.
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Scott
Member
Posts: 1,676
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Post by Scott on Nov 15, 2015 7:24:47 GMT
As far as work hardening the edges goes, scythes were sharpened by hammering on the edge, using a light hammer and small anvil that were carried in the field. I think this also hardened the edges. Hope this is helpful.
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Post by gerrye on Nov 15, 2015 14:45:47 GMT
I saw a review of a bronze sword a while ago, it had been work hardened and proved to be far tougher than expected. I don't know that it makes the same degree of difference to mild steel but can't see why the effects wouldn't be mirrored to some degree.
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Post by Karoliner on Nov 15, 2015 18:20:51 GMT
I figured I was going to peen the edge like a scythe- glad I'm not the only one who had that idea. Got to grind the tang some more and then finish the bevels. Definitely buying an angle grinder before I do this again.
Waiting on the stencils for the BEAGNOTH inscription as well.
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Post by Karoliner on Nov 17, 2015 2:00:20 GMT
Worked the edge down to about 1/16". Just need to finish the edge, clean it up, etch it, and then antique it.
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Scott
Member
Posts: 1,676
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Post by Scott on Nov 17, 2015 2:34:53 GMT
Any pictures? I'm looking forward to seeing how the peened edge goes.
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Post by Karoliner on Nov 18, 2015 2:09:14 GMT
. Attachments:
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Post by Karoliner on Nov 18, 2015 2:10:19 GMT
It's the first blade I've ever tried to grind, so it ain't very pretty. I think I can pretty much take it with draw filing from here. There's only so much I can do with my little 1x30 belt sander...
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