|
Post by zabazagobo on Jul 22, 2018 6:39:14 GMT
I don’t know how easy it would be to coordinate but would be awesome. Sadly I can’t contribute antiques to this as my Nihonto are all in the class of “I would not want this to be cut with”.. papered already or on the path to be. One of which may be a Juyo candidate. But... any of my modern swords are fair game. And I would be happy to add them to the mix. It would be interesting to look at every detail of geometry such as convex arc of the Ji, entry angle of the ha, etc. It WOULD be interesting to see what makes a Nihonto seemingly cut different than the modern replicas. By the naked eye it seems like the playing field would be more equal than it is, and up until I cut with a Nihonto I would have said hogwash. Now, my curiosity wants to dispel and put explanation to this “black magic” 😀 treeslicer is also correct. You can get unpaperable swords pretty easily if you know where to look. Often Shintō or later swords that have fukure for example are dirt cheap because fukure are so unsightly but have almost no affect on structural integrity. Usually that kizu is purely cosmetic in most cases. Those make great cutting Nihonto for JSA. Even unpapered possible art swords are there. I myself picked up a Wakizashi (Shintō) that had not YET been papered. No flaws but needs a polish before shinsa but it should pass Hozon at least I think, for like $300. Right? The 'black magic' is what's interested me a lot for awhile since its a fairly common report I've heard. Maybe it's a saké quench?
It'd be fun to organize such an event, but the logistics would be a nightmare. Plus, given the swords you listed (many of which I'd drool to appreciate in person) you better not muck those up! Lol
Like I mentioned to treeslicer, any advice you have on the best places to shop for such swords would be a really appreciated recommendation. I've seen some sources that look legit, others shady, and haven't spent enough time shopping for nihonto to know which ones to trust.
|
|
|
Post by Verity on Jul 22, 2018 15:27:43 GMT
First, yes, science is that important. For instance, there have been several studies involving not just the use of nihonto, but also cutting them up for examination. Prior to WWII, the Japanese did quite a bit of that. Second, there's absolutely no shortage of nihonto damaged too badly by use, neglect, polishing accidents, etc., to qualify as "art swords", but which are still perfectly sound for practical use. Sword dealers' back rooms in Japan are stacked with them, and they are sold among dealers, in bundles of 5 or 10, as a commodity. Some smiths include bits and pieces of old swords in their billets for new production, and some sword scrap finds its way into cooking knives and tools. I personally have a couple of koto katana that I cut with regularly, one was messed up by an inattentive togoishi who put a major "wave" in the shinogi on one side, the other is a probably Kamakura period, and probably Yamato, tachi blade that has a hagire (contrary to common belief, outside the monouchi, small hagire are usually stable, but can reduce a price by a factor of at least 10 to 20). Both blades are utterly unpaperable, and only cost me $400 for one and $300 for the other.
Anybody wants to organize a "slice-off", it's definitely do-able without imperiling any museum pieces.
The science riff was a joke, but no science isn't all that important.
On an actually serious note, the swords you're describing are what I'm currently shopping for (mumei, paperless, but perfectly functional, not art pieces in their current state and priced accordingly). Any advice on where you'd recommend shopping for blades like the ones you mentioned would be highly welcome. The shinogi wave sounds kind of cool actually, how does it affect performance? If it's not detrimental, it could be a cool technique for added style (especially on a shobu blade) ebay seller komonjo is often selling what look to be gimei blades sometimes that appear by the pics to be genuine tamahagane. But i’ve Never seen one up close. Wblwbl12 does too occasionally. It also helps to talk to dealers. Go to one of the US shinsa and sword shows for the NTHK. They are held in San Fransisco and in Tampa. PM me what sort of stats you are wanting and I can keep an eye, though note in the Nihonto world you rarely get a spec sheet you want without waiting and watching. You can also look at some of the dealers that have martial arts offerings. Andy Quirt (Nihonto.us) often mixes high end stuff and the martial artist Nihonto in his listings but I don’t think i’ve Ever seen him offer one of the unpaperable ones. But I have seen them the price of a bugei on his site before. You could also join the NMB and post in the WTB, tho mentioning cutting with one there might get you flamed. That crew is sometimes a bit of art sword elitist type. But I did score my $300 mystery Wakizashi there. And it very well could be paperable. So there are juicy deals in the classifieds sometimes. I’d be happy to keep an eye out. Some of us here like vermithrax, Jussi and myself are members there too.
|
|
|
Post by treeslicer on Jul 22, 2018 18:29:59 GMT
The science riff was a joke, but no science isn't all that important.
On an actually serious note, the swords you're describing are what I'm currently shopping for (mumei, paperless, but perfectly functional, not art pieces in their current state and priced accordingly). Any advice on where you'd recommend shopping for blades like the ones you mentioned would be highly welcome. The shinogi wave sounds kind of cool actually, how does it affect performance? If it's not detrimental, it could be a cool technique for added style (especially on a shobu blade) ebay seller komonjo is often selling what look to be gimei blades sometimes that appear by the pics to be genuine tamahagane. But i’ve Never seen one up close. Wblwbl12 does too occasionally. It also helps to talk to dealers. Go to one of the US shinsa and sword shows for the NTHK. They are held in San Fransisco and in Tampa. PM me what sort of stats you are wanting and I can keep an eye, though note in the Nihonto world you rarely get a spec sheet you want without waiting and watching. You can also look at some of the dealers that have martial arts offerings. Andy Quirt (Nihonto.us) often mixes high end stuff and the martial artist Nihonto in his listings but I don’t think i’ve Ever seen him offer one of the unpaperable ones. But I have seen them the price of a bugei on his site before. You could also join the NMB and post in the WTB, tho mentioning cutting with one there might get you flamed. That crew is sometimes a bit of art sword elitist type. But I did score my $300 mystery Wakizashi there. And it very well could be paperable. So there are juicy deals in the classifieds sometimes. I’d be happy to keep an eye out. Some of us here like vermithrax , Jussi and myself are members there too. My favorite single source on eBay is this bunch: Daimyo Armor & Antiques Besides eBay, they have a website, daimyou-armor.com/ as well as a brick-and-mortar in Onomichi near the train station and post office (they give a map on their website). It's sort of like rummaging in a samurai flea market, you never know what might turn up for very reasonable prices. BTW, I prefer to deal directly with Japanese sellers. EMS is a very efficient shipping service (five days from Onomichi to my door, most times), and the Japanese nihonto eBay dealers actually seem to have fewer weasel genes than some of the US eBay dealers do. "It's a puzzlement."
|
|
|
Post by Verity on Jul 22, 2018 20:37:11 GMT
ebay seller komonjo is often selling what look to be gimei blades sometimes that appear by the pics to be genuine tamahagane. But i’ve Never seen one up close. Wblwbl12 does too occasionally. It also helps to talk to dealers. Go to one of the US shinsa and sword shows for the NTHK. They are held in San Fransisco and in Tampa. PM me what sort of stats you are wanting and I can keep an eye, though note in the Nihonto world you rarely get a spec sheet you want without waiting and watching. You can also look at some of the dealers that have martial arts offerings. Andy Quirt (Nihonto.us) often mixes high end stuff and the martial artist Nihonto in his listings but I don’t think i’ve Ever seen him offer one of the unpaperable ones. But I have seen them the price of a bugei on his site before. You could also join the NMB and post in the WTB, tho mentioning cutting with one there might get you flamed. That crew is sometimes a bit of art sword elitist type. But I did score my $300 mystery Wakizashi there. And it very well could be paperable. So there are juicy deals in the classifieds sometimes. I’d be happy to keep an eye out. Some of us here like vermithrax , Jussi and myself are members there too. My favorite single source on eBay is this bunch: Daimyo Armor & Antiques Besides eBay, they have a website, daimyou-armor.com/ as well as a brick-and-mortar in Onomichi near the train station and post office (they give a map on their website). It's sort of like rummaging in a samurai flea market, you never know what might turn up for very reasonable prices. BTW, I prefer to deal directly with Japanese sellers. EMS is a very efficient shipping service (five days from Onomichi to my door, most times), and the Japanese nihonto eBay dealers actually seem to have fewer weasel genes than some of the US eBay dealers do. "It's a puzzlement." daimyou is also great. If you can get an auction that is not shill bid. I’ve seen lots of auctions of his that I am pretty sure have shill bids
|
|
Zen_Hydra
Moderator
Born with a heart full of neutrality
Posts: 2,629
|
Post by Zen_Hydra on Jul 22, 2018 22:38:42 GMT
I don’t know how easy it would be to coordinate but would be awesome. Sadly I can’t contribute antiques to this as my Nihonto are all in the class of “I would not want this to be cut with”.. papered already or on the path to be. One of which may be a Juyo candidate. But... any of my modern swords are fair game. And I would be happy to add them to the mix. It would be interesting to look at every detail of geometry such as convex arc of the Ji, entry angle of the ha, etc. It WOULD be interesting to see what makes a Nihonto seemingly cut different than the modern replicas. By the naked eye it seems like the playing field would be more equal than it is, and up until I cut with a Nihonto I would have said hogwash. Now, my curiosity wants to dispel and put explanation to this “black magic” 😀 treeslicer is also correct. You can get unpaperable swords pretty easily if you know where to look. Often Shintō or later swords that have fukure for example are dirt cheap because fukure are so unsightly but have almost no affect on structural integrity. Usually that kizu is purely cosmetic in most cases. Those make great cutting Nihonto for JSA. Even unpapered possible art swords are there. I myself picked up a Wakizashi (Shintō) that had not YET been papered. No flaws but needs a polish before shinsa but it should pass Hozon at least I think, for like $300. Right? The 'black magic' is what's interested me a lot for awhile since its a fairly common report I've heard. Maybe it's a saké quench?
It'd be fun to organize such an event, but the logistics would be a nightmare. Plus, given the swords you listed (many of which I'd drool to appreciate in person) you better not muck those up! Lol
Like I mentioned to treeslicer, any advice you have on the best places to shop for such swords would be a really appreciated recommendation. I've seen some sources that look legit, others shady, and haven't spent enough time shopping for nihonto to know which ones to trust.
Where I come from this "black magic" is called confirmation bias.
|
|
|
Post by Verity on Jul 23, 2018 5:14:50 GMT
Right? The 'black magic' is what's interested me a lot for awhile since its a fairly common report I've heard. Maybe it's a saké quench?
It'd be fun to organize such an event, but the logistics would be a nightmare. Plus, given the swords you listed (many of which I'd drool to appreciate in person) you better not muck those up! Lol
Like I mentioned to treeslicer, any advice you have on the best places to shop for such swords would be a really appreciated recommendation. I've seen some sources that look legit, others shady, and haven't spent enough time shopping for nihonto to know which ones to trust.
Where I come from this "black magic" is called confirmation bias. lol. Not looking to debate. I’d love empirical evidence. I am an open minded person and hardly fall into the camp that the katana was a “super sword”. I like them. But will be the first person to stand up and say a competent longsword wielder would best a samurai if they were of equivalent skill. Two edges, longer reach, better binding capabilities... so I don’t think I am displaying confirmatory bias. I DID anecdotally firsthand experience less effort cutting with it than with most of my Chinese reproductions. Is that a proper study? Hardly. Just one man’s observation provided when asked for it. I clearly caveated my observations multiple times as well. So... 😝
|
|
|
Post by vermithrax on Jul 23, 2018 22:37:47 GMT
In the past 6 months there were several papered (NBTHK Hozon) waki sold for less than $2000 on NMB. Always worth a look in the for sale section, you never know when something will pop up. I sold both my Ishido sword and the Echizen Kanemasa sword there for around $2000 each and both were katana.
|
|
|
Post by zabazagobo on Jul 24, 2018 6:22:31 GMT
Right? The 'black magic' is what's interested me a lot for awhile since its a fairly common report I've heard. Maybe it's a saké quench?
It'd be fun to organize such an event, but the logistics would be a nightmare. Plus, given the swords you listed (many of which I'd drool to appreciate in person) you better not muck those up! Lol
Like I mentioned to treeslicer, any advice you have on the best places to shop for such swords would be a really appreciated recommendation. I've seen some sources that look legit, others shady, and haven't spent enough time shopping for nihonto to know which ones to trust.
Where I come from this "black magic" is called confirmation bias. Not so much in this case, the only heuristical bias/judgement fallacy I seem to consistently fall into with swords is that dang sunk cost effect when it comes to fussing around with ito-wrap haha. I've just heard enough about nihonto cutting wonderfully (Verity's anecdote just being the most recent) that I suspect there is something about their design (likely the polish and overall shaping) that allows them to perform better than other Japanese styled swords. At some point I'll have to test one out with Santana's "black magic woman" playing in the background.
|
|
|
Post by zabazagobo on Jul 24, 2018 6:28:53 GMT
The science riff was a joke, but no science isn't all that important.
On an actually serious note, the swords you're describing are what I'm currently shopping for (mumei, paperless, but perfectly functional, not art pieces in their current state and priced accordingly). Any advice on where you'd recommend shopping for blades like the ones you mentioned would be highly welcome. The shinogi wave sounds kind of cool actually, how does it affect performance? If it's not detrimental, it could be a cool technique for added style (especially on a shobu blade) ebay seller komonjo is often selling what look to be gimei blades sometimes that appear by the pics to be genuine tamahagane. But i’ve Never seen one up close. Wblwbl12 does too occasionally. It also helps to talk to dealers. Go to one of the US shinsa and sword shows for the NTHK. They are held in San Fransisco and in Tampa. PM me what sort of stats you are wanting and I can keep an eye, though note in the Nihonto world you rarely get a spec sheet you want without waiting and watching. You can also look at some of the dealers that have martial arts offerings. Andy Quirt (Nihonto.us) often mixes high end stuff and the martial artist Nihonto in his listings but I don’t think i’ve Ever seen him offer one of the unpaperable ones. But I have seen them the price of a bugei on his site before. You could also join the NMB and post in the WTB, tho mentioning cutting with one there might get you flamed. That crew is sometimes a bit of art sword elitist type. But I did score my $300 mystery Wakizashi there. And it very well could be paperable. So there are juicy deals in the classifieds sometimes. I’d be happy to keep an eye out. Some of us here like vermithrax , Jussi and myself are members there too. Thanks for all the suggestions. Komonjo's always been an interesting page to watch. Might take a stab at one of those. Even if not 100% genuine, they do look pretty (and are pretty dang inexpensive too). Could be a nice beginner's art piece or conversation starter.
I'll shoot you a message sometime when I've figured out exact details on what I'm looking for. Thanks for helping out a nihonto noob like me
|
|
|
Post by kintaro on Jul 25, 2018 14:16:16 GMT
Thanks for all the suggestions. Komonjo's always been an interesting page to watch. Might take a stab at one of those. Even if not 100% genuine, they do look pretty (and are pretty dang inexpensive too). Could be a nice beginner's art piece or conversation starter.
I'll shoot you a message sometime when I've figured out exact details on what I'm looking for. Thanks for helping out a nihonto noob like me
Also look at www.aoijapan.com/, a long time suggested site from SBG in matter of genuine nihonto. They have new items on the daily basis.
On Ebay there are many frauds, gimei true nihonto blades but with false signature and/or a style immitation. Then even worse, chinese made high end blades which sellers pretend to be japanese. Like this one from changtian-sword, an infamous seller on Ebay. There is a thread about those chinese forgeries on the nihonto board: okay-now-this-is-getting-scary
|
|
|
Post by Verity on Jul 25, 2018 17:41:19 GMT
Thanks for all the suggestions. Komonjo's always been an interesting page to watch. Might take a stab at one of those. Even if not 100% genuine, they do look pretty (and are pretty dang inexpensive too). Could be a nice beginner's art piece or conversation starter.
I'll shoot you a message sometime when I've figured out exact details on what I'm looking for. Thanks for helping out a nihonto noob like me
Also look at www.aoijapan.com/, a long time suggested site from SBG in matter of genuine nihonto. They have new items on the daily basis.
On Ebay there are many frauds, gimei true nihonto blades but with false signature and/or a style immitation. Then even worse, chinese made high end blades which sellers pretend to be japanese. Like this one from changtian-sword, an infamous seller on Ebay. There is a thread about those chinese forgeries on the nihonto board: okay-now-this-is-getting-scary
Aoi is highly trusted for Nihonto, but typically deals in art swords and papered Nihonto (or paperable). Not super relevant for the asked for type or items (lower end blades for cutting). For art swords or papered legitimate historical pieces, yes Aoi is absolutely a reputable source.
|
|
|
Post by zabazagobo on Jul 25, 2018 22:06:56 GMT
Thanks for all the suggestions. Komonjo's always been an interesting page to watch. Might take a stab at one of those. Even if not 100% genuine, they do look pretty (and are pretty dang inexpensive too). Could be a nice beginner's art piece or conversation starter.
I'll shoot you a message sometime when I've figured out exact details on what I'm looking for. Thanks for helping out a nihonto noob like me
Also look at www.aoijapan.com/, a long time suggested site from SBG in matter of genuine nihonto. They have new items on the daily basis.
On Ebay there are many frauds, gimei true nihonto blades but with false signature and/or a style immitation. Then even worse, chinese made high end blades which sellers pretend to be japanese. Like this one from changtian-sword, an infamous seller on Ebay. There is a thread about those chinese forgeries on the nihonto board: okay-now-this-is-getting-scary
Aoi and similar sites have really pretty swords...but they're really pricey. Definitely out of my budget based on price and also something I wouldn't want to indulge in since I like to cut with and regularly use whatever I buy; ruining something pristine and beautiful would really be out of the question. I remember that thread and others...fun stuff. Ebay's really a minefield, no matter what you're buying. Just like that "oh the humanity" thread in the forum cafe goes into, sometimes it's comically awful.
|
|
|
Post by Verity on Jul 27, 2018 21:57:29 GMT
Alright everyone! So a few updates. As promised. 1.) museum gallery now updated with the High res images: postimg.cc/gallery/rgvkbjik/2.) Iaido lesson pics (including the tatami targets): postimg.cc/gallery/18dy1d2q4/3.) and finally... cuz I am a cosplayer and love costumes... we did a Geisha/Geiko, Maiko and Samurai photo shoot while in Kyoto as well. postimg.cc/gallery/phidlh4c/Hope you all enjoy! (Note, Click through the thumbnails to see larger res and see the option to download original FULL res; this will be useful for those who want to see the detail of the hada on these blades). Also disclaimer: there are a LOT of photos in the gallery of the swords from the museum. Be prepared to get lost in beautiful steel. 😂
|
|
|
Post by treeslicer on Jul 27, 2018 22:15:47 GMT
Great pics!!! Thanks much.
|
|
|
Post by vermithrax on Jul 27, 2018 22:27:59 GMT
Man! I am gonna spend some time tonight looking at all the swords. Thanks for the great pictures of the amazing visit!
|
|
|
Post by RaylonTheDemented on Jul 28, 2018 14:22:36 GMT
Very nice pics, thanks a lot Verity!
o7
|
|
|
Post by Verity on Jul 28, 2018 15:41:15 GMT
No problem! treeslicer, vermithrax and RaylonTheDemented: I hope you enjoy them! Definitely got a lot more exposure to those early koto hada and fell in love once again. I definitely have added some new smiths to my “want list” and for sure want to pick up a mokume hada Nihonto at some point now after seeing those. 🤤
|
|
|
Post by Jussi Ekholm on Jul 31, 2018 19:24:11 GMT
Seems like you had a great trip Verity.
|
|
|
Post by Verity on Jul 31, 2018 19:57:24 GMT
Seems like you had a great trip Verity. :) I did! It was fabulous! Thanks!
|
|