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Post by Verity on Jul 19, 2018 21:31:34 GMT
Sounds like a great vacation. The sword pics were much appreciated, boy does that naginata blade look awesome. It'd be fun to own a pair of those in wakizashi mounting. The training bit sounds particularly awesome, getting a personalized lesson and opportunity to cut with a nihonto sounds like a blast. Notice a difference in performance while cutting? actually yes. To most. I find the gap between it and my Hanwei Shintō to not be AS large as to some of my other Katana though.
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Post by zabazagobo on Jul 20, 2018 18:28:32 GMT
Sounds like a great vacation. The sword pics were much appreciated, boy does that naginata blade look awesome. It'd be fun to own a pair of those in wakizashi mounting. The training bit sounds particularly awesome, getting a personalized lesson and opportunity to cut with a nihonto sounds like a blast. Notice a difference in performance while cutting? actually yes. To most. I find the gap between it and my Hanwei Shintō to not be AS large as to some of my other Katana though. Interesting anecdote. If memory serves, that was the older version with comparable specs to the Orchid, right?
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Post by Verity on Jul 20, 2018 19:34:41 GMT
actually yes. To most. I find the gap between it and my Hanwei Shintō to not be AS large as to some of my other Katana though. Interesting anecdote. If memory serves, that was the older version with comparable specs to the Orchid, right? correct. I own the early 2000’s Model with no bohi. I think the specs at that time were similar to the orchid (though I thought the orchid had a bohi). Regardless, having now cut with a Nihonto, I would say VERY few of the Chinese blades I’ve cut with compare. Not being elitist by any means as I love my Huawei and other blades, but the attention paid to the geometry of a Nihonto definitely makes a difference. I would imagine that if a capable polisher put proper geometry on a Chinese reproduction blade it would compare, but I don’t think many production blades come close. Just my anecdotal opinion.
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Post by treeslicer on Jul 21, 2018 1:30:09 GMT
Interesting anecdote. If memory serves, that was the older version with comparable specs to the Orchid, right? correct. I own the early 2000’s Model with no bohi. I think the specs at that time were similar to the orchid (though I thought the orchid had a bohi). Regardless, having now cut with a Nihonto, I would say VERY few of the Chinese blades I’ve cut with compare. Not being elitist by any means as I love my Huawei and other blades, but the attention paid to the geometry of a Nihonto definitely makes a difference. I would imagine that if a capable polisher put proper geometry on a Chinese reproduction blade it would compare, but I don’t think many production blades come close. Just my anecdotal opinion. I've previously said something similar, and when the "accepted wisdom" on these matters aggressively asserted itself, I let the matter lie, and went back to slicing targets with my much-less-than-juyo Sengoku-era pigstickers. There's something metallurgically peculiar about the properly made original blades that makes them slice better than modern steel, but it's not worth arguing about. I have observed that Chinese blades that approach the nihonto in cutting ability are folded, and show similar quenching oddities in the hamon.
I noticed from your photos, that you've been in Kyoto. Are you going to go to the other end of the country, and visit Hiroshima? There's a place in Onomichi you might want to visit if you do.
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Post by Verity on Jul 21, 2018 1:57:21 GMT
correct. I own the early 2000’s Model with no bohi. I think the specs at that time were similar to the orchid (though I thought the orchid had a bohi). Regardless, having now cut with a Nihonto, I would say VERY few of the Chinese blades I’ve cut with compare. Not being elitist by any means as I love my Huawei and other blades, but the attention paid to the geometry of a Nihonto definitely makes a difference. I would imagine that if a capable polisher put proper geometry on a Chinese reproduction blade it would compare, but I don’t think many production blades come close. Just my anecdotal opinion. I've previously said something similar, and when the "accepted wisdom" on these matters aggressively asserted itself, I let the matter lie, and went back to slicing targets with my much-less-than-juyo Sengoku-era pigstickers. There's something metallurgically peculiar about the properly made original blades that makes them slice better than modern steel, but it's not worth arguing about. I have observed that Chinese blades that approach the nihonto in cutting ability are folded, and show similar quenching oddities in the hamon.
I noticed from your photos, that you've been in Kyoto. Are you going to go to the other end of the country, and visit Hiroshima? There's a place in Onomichi you might want to visit if you do.
good eye! I was in Kyoto. We wanted to go to Hiroshima and that side but did not have time.
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Post by Verity on Jul 21, 2018 2:10:13 GMT
correct. I own the early 2000’s Model with no bohi. I think the specs at that time were similar to the orchid (though I thought the orchid had a bohi). Regardless, having now cut with a Nihonto, I would say VERY few of the Chinese blades I’ve cut with compare. Not being elitist by any means as I love my Huawei and other blades, but the attention paid to the geometry of a Nihonto definitely makes a difference. I would imagine that if a capable polisher put proper geometry on a Chinese reproduction blade it would compare, but I don’t think many production blades come close. Just my anecdotal opinion. I've previously said something similar, and when the "accepted wisdom" on these matters aggressively asserted itself, I let the matter lie, and went back to slicing targets with my much-less-than-juyo Sengoku-era pigstickers. There's something metallurgically peculiar about the properly made original blades that makes them slice better than modern steel, but it's not worth arguing about. I have observed that Chinese blades that approach the nihonto in cutting ability are folded, and show similar quenching oddities in the hamon.
I noticed from your photos, that you've been in Kyoto. Are you going to go to the other end of the country, and visit Hiroshima? There's a place in Onomichi you might want to visit if you do.
i’m a little dubious it is the tamahagane vs monosteel and think it more the polish and geometry a togishi does vs a Chinese grinding wheel. 😂
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Post by treeslicer on Jul 21, 2018 2:45:17 GMT
I've previously said something similar, and when the "accepted wisdom" on these matters aggressively asserted itself, I let the matter lie, and went back to slicing targets with my much-less-than-juyo Sengoku-era pigstickers. There's something metallurgically peculiar about the properly made original blades that makes them slice better than modern steel, but it's not worth arguing about. I have observed that Chinese blades that approach the nihonto in cutting ability are folded, and show similar quenching oddities in the hamon.
I noticed from your photos, that you've been in Kyoto. Are you going to go to the other end of the country, and visit Hiroshima? There's a place in Onomichi you might want to visit if you do.
i’m a little dubious it is the tamahagane vs monosteel and think it more the polish and geometry a togishi does vs a Chinese grinding wheel. 😂 Doesn't matter. Whatever happens structurally, I do find that jnats will put a sharper edge on most anything, so maybe you're right.
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Post by zabazagobo on Jul 21, 2018 3:01:51 GMT
Interesting anecdote. If memory serves, that was the older version with comparable specs to the Orchid, right? correct. I own the early 2000’s Model with no bohi. I think the specs at that time were similar to the orchid (though I thought the orchid had a bohi). Regardless, having now cut with a Nihonto, I would say VERY few of the Chinese blades I’ve cut with compare. Not being elitist by any means as I love my Huawei and other blades, but the attention paid to the geometry of a Nihonto definitely makes a difference. I would imagine that if a capable polisher put proper geometry on a Chinese reproduction blade it would compare, but I don’t think many production blades come close. Just my anecdotal opinion. Not elitist in the slightest, just realist and honest. The blade shaping and texture makes all the difference in the world. My next purchase might very well be a mumei I touch up and customize just to see what happens.
The lack of attention on the finer details of geometry is a big part of why I'm entering the phase where I'll mostly just be looking at custom projects from now on. Or less expensive antiques perhaps (being able to be used is a must for me, and the historian in me would be bummed about ruining an antique with vigorous use).
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Post by zabazagobo on Jul 21, 2018 3:17:36 GMT
i’m a little dubious it is the tamahagane vs monosteel and think it more the polish and geometry a togishi does vs a Chinese grinding wheel. 😂 Doesn't matter. Whatever happens structurally, I do find that jnats will put a sharper edge on most anything, so maybe you're right. I think we agree that the 'superior modern steel is the best' train of thought runs out of steam when the maker's technique and skill come into play. I've seen enough duds made of 'superior modern steel' and enough impressive swords made 'the old fashioned way' to know it's definitely case specific. Poor blade shaping and polishing can't be mitigated by having a trendy new steel, and a blade that sounds good on paper often can't cut it.
I still remain in agreement with you that a carefully prepared blade with skillful folding and lamination does present advantageous properties over non-folded blades, despite what some will vehemently state otherwise. I mean, Howard Clark's L6 blades don't have a great reputation for their keen edge so much as being remarkably resilient, whereas I've heard quite the opposite regarding nihonto.
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Post by Verity on Jul 21, 2018 3:45:29 GMT
Doesn't matter. Whatever happens structurally, I do find that jnats will put a sharper edge on most anything, so maybe you're right. I think we agree that the 'superior modern steel is the best' train of thought runs out of steam when the maker's technique and skill come into play. I've seen enough duds made of 'superior modern steel' and enough impressive swords made 'the old fashioned way' to know it's definitely case specific. Poor blade shaping and polishing can't be mitigated by having a trendy new steel, and a blade that sounds good on paper often can't cut it.
I still remain in agreement with you that a carefully prepared blade with skillful folding and lamination does present advantageous properties over non-folded blades, despite what some will vehemently state otherwise. I mean, Howard Clark's L6 blades don't have a great reputation for their keen edge so much as being remarkably resilient, whereas I've heard quite the opposite regarding nihonto.
i can certainly attest that Nihonto, when in proper geometry and polish, are sharp. 😋 That is a ground truth. I’ll not weigh in on superiority as my own anecdotal tests do not have enough of a sample size to be meaningful. There are simply way too many good swords out there I’ve not cut with. But against MY collection of cutting blades (which for me excludes my antiques)... the Nihonto I had the pleasure to cut with stands above nearly all of them. As I said. Based on my observation I think the Hanwei Shintō I have comes darn close. But it’s also been worked over too so it may be unfair to make the statement that a stock Shintō would cut like a Nihonto. I’ll not make that claim. I WILL claim that MY Hanwei Shintō cuts an awful lot like the Nihonto I cut with in Japan.
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Post by zabazagobo on Jul 21, 2018 6:45:33 GMT
I think we agree that the 'superior modern steel is the best' train of thought runs out of steam when the maker's technique and skill come into play. I've seen enough duds made of 'superior modern steel' and enough impressive swords made 'the old fashioned way' to know it's definitely case specific. Poor blade shaping and polishing can't be mitigated by having a trendy new steel, and a blade that sounds good on paper often can't cut it.
I still remain in agreement with you that a carefully prepared blade with skillful folding and lamination does present advantageous properties over non-folded blades, despite what some will vehemently state otherwise. I mean, Howard Clark's L6 blades don't have a great reputation for their keen edge so much as being remarkably resilient, whereas I've heard quite the opposite regarding nihonto.
i can certainly attest that Nihonto, when in proper geometry and polish, are sharp. 😋 That is a ground truth. I’ll not weigh in on superiority as my own anecdotal tests do not have enough of a sample size to be meaningful. There are simply way too many good swords out there I’ve not cut with. But against MY collection of cutting blades (which for me excludes my antiques)... the Nihonto I had the pleasure to cut with stands above nearly all of them. As I said. Based on my observation I think the Hanwei Shintō I have comes darn close. But it’s also been worked over too so it may be unfair to make the statement that a stock Shintō would cut like a Nihonto. I’ll not make that claim. I WILL claim that MY Hanwei Shintō cuts an awful lot like the Nihonto I cut with in Japan. And that anecdote makes me more bummed than ever that your variant of the Shintō is off the market. Quite a bit cheaper than nihonto haha.
Makes me wonder how my Bushido would fare if touched up with a new polish/sharpening job...(and also reminds me that despite my claims of straying from production pieces that I'll inevitably have to purchase a second of that model at some point haha).
It'd be fun to organize a study with enough of a sample to infer significance, but I'd be loathe to damage so many swords. Science isn't that important
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Post by treeslicer on Jul 21, 2018 14:13:21 GMT
i can certainly attest that Nihonto, when in proper geometry and polish, are sharp. 😋 That is a ground truth. I’ll not weigh in on superiority as my own anecdotal tests do not have enough of a sample size to be meaningful. There are simply way too many good swords out there I’ve not cut with. But against MY collection of cutting blades (which for me excludes my antiques)... the Nihonto I had the pleasure to cut with stands above nearly all of them. As I said. Based on my observation I think the Hanwei Shintō I have comes darn close. But it’s also been worked over too so it may be unfair to make the statement that a stock Shintō would cut like a Nihonto. I’ll not make that claim. I WILL claim that MY Hanwei Shintō cuts an awful lot like the Nihonto I cut with in Japan. And that anecdote makes me more bummed than ever that your variant of the Shintō is off the market. Quite a bit cheaper than nihonto haha.
Makes me wonder how my Bushido would fare if touched up with a new polish/sharpening job...(and also reminds me that despite my claims of straying from production pieces that I'll inevitably have to purchase a second of that model at some point haha).
It'd be fun to organize a study with enough of a sample to infer significance, but I'd be loathe to damage so many swords. Science isn't that important
First, yes, science is that important. For instance, there have been several studies involving not just the use of nihonto, but also cutting them up for examination. Prior to WWII, the Japanese did quite a bit of that. Second, there's absolutely no shortage of nihonto damaged too badly by use, neglect, polishing accidents, etc., to qualify as "art swords", but which are still perfectly sound for practical use. Sword dealers' back rooms in Japan are stacked with them, and they are sold among dealers, in bundles of 5 or 10, as a commodity. Some smiths include bits and pieces of old swords in their billets for new production, and some sword scrap finds its way into cooking knives and tools. I personally have a couple of koto katana that I cut with regularly, one was messed up by an inattentive togoishi who put a major "wave" in the shinogi on one side, the other is a probably Kamakura period, and probably Yamato, tachi blade that has a hagire (contrary to common belief, outside the monouchi, small hagire are usually stable, but can reduce a price by a factor of at least 10 to 20). Both blades are utterly unpaperable, and only cost me $400 for one and $300 for the other.
Anybody wants to organize a "slice-off", it's definitely do-able without imperiling any museum pieces.
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Post by Verity on Jul 21, 2018 17:39:15 GMT
I don’t know how easy it would be to coordinate but would be awesome. Sadly I can’t contribute antiques to this as my Nihonto are all in the class of “I would not want this to be cut with”.. papered already or on the path to be. One of which may be a Juyo candidate. But... any of my modern swords are fair game. And I would be happy to add them to the mix. It would be interesting to look at every detail of geometry such as convex arc of the Ji, entry angle of the ha, etc. It WOULD be interesting to see what makes a Nihonto seemingly cut different than the modern replicas. By the naked eye it seems like the playing field would be more equal than it is, and up until I cut with a Nihonto I would have said hogwash. Now, my curiosity wants to dispel and put explanation to this “black magic” 😀 treeslicer is also correct. You can get unpaperable swords pretty easily if you know where to look. Often Shintō or later swords that have fukure for example are dirt cheap because fukure are so unsightly but have almost no affect on structural integrity. Usually that kizu is purely cosmetic in most cases. Those make great cutting Nihonto for JSA. Even unpapered possible art swords are there. I myself picked up a Wakizashi (Shintō) that had not YET been papered. No flaws but needs a polish before shinsa but it should pass Hozon at least I think, for like $300.
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Post by vermithrax on Jul 21, 2018 23:31:51 GMT
Great pics my friend. Glad the trip went so well. Step over to the Soshu darkside of Koto, way better than Bizen
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Post by Verity on Jul 21, 2018 23:33:54 GMT
Great pics my friend. Glad the trip went so well. Step over to the Soshu darkside of Koto, way better than Bizen :) haha. Soshu is nice too. 😋
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Post by treeslicer on Jul 21, 2018 23:53:59 GMT
Great pics my friend. Glad the trip went so well. Step over to the Soshu darkside of Koto, way better than Bizen haha. Soshu is nice too. 😋 Mino rules.
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Post by Verity on Jul 22, 2018 0:32:48 GMT
haha. Soshu is nice too. 😋 Mino rules. :P :D i have a Mino 😝
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Post by treeslicer on Jul 22, 2018 0:41:06 GMT
Mino rules. i have a Mino 😝 Of course you do. Everyone with impeccable taste has a few.
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Post by Verity on Jul 22, 2018 2:05:48 GMT
Of course you do. Everyone with impeccable taste has a few. not a few. Just one (so far). Mutsu Aizu Unju Kanetomo. Currently own 5 Nihonto. Bizen Mino Kii-Ishido Kaga (I think) And one i’ve not spent any time with on Kantei
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Post by zabazagobo on Jul 22, 2018 6:34:55 GMT
And that anecdote makes me more bummed than ever that your variant of the Shintō is off the market. Quite a bit cheaper than nihonto haha.
Makes me wonder how my Bushido would fare if touched up with a new polish/sharpening job...(and also reminds me that despite my claims of straying from production pieces that I'll inevitably have to purchase a second of that model at some point haha).
It'd be fun to organize a study with enough of a sample to infer significance, but I'd be loathe to damage so many swords. Science isn't that important
First, yes, science is that important. For instance, there have been several studies involving not just the use of nihonto, but also cutting them up for examination. Prior to WWII, the Japanese did quite a bit of that. Second, there's absolutely no shortage of nihonto damaged too badly by use, neglect, polishing accidents, etc., to qualify as "art swords", but which are still perfectly sound for practical use. Sword dealers' back rooms in Japan are stacked with them, and they are sold among dealers, in bundles of 5 or 10, as a commodity. Some smiths include bits and pieces of old swords in their billets for new production, and some sword scrap finds its way into cooking knives and tools. I personally have a couple of koto katana that I cut with regularly, one was messed up by an inattentive togoishi who put a major "wave" in the shinogi on one side, the other is a probably Kamakura period, and probably Yamato, tachi blade that has a hagire (contrary to common belief, outside the monouchi, small hagire are usually stable, but can reduce a price by a factor of at least 10 to 20). Both blades are utterly unpaperable, and only cost me $400 for one and $300 for the other.
Anybody wants to organize a "slice-off", it's definitely do-able without imperiling any museum pieces.
The science riff was a joke, but no science isn't all that important.
On an actually serious note, the swords you're describing are what I'm currently shopping for (mumei, paperless, but perfectly functional, not art pieces in their current state and priced accordingly). Any advice on where you'd recommend shopping for blades like the ones you mentioned would be highly welcome. The shinogi wave sounds kind of cool actually, how does it affect performance? If it's not detrimental, it could be a cool technique for added style (especially on a shobu blade)
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