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Post by MOK on Feb 8, 2018 6:42:31 GMT
...as long as there's occasion to carry and room to use it. Which puts us right back in the phone booth with the small knife. Or the frontier bar room with the large bowie.
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Post by howler on Feb 8, 2018 6:59:48 GMT
Why the 7", when a 5-6" is easier to carry and conceal? Double tip speed Hah. Interestingly enough, over 9" and your getting into that realm. Don't quote me on the EXACT length it doubles, as I don't want the wrath of mathematic sticklers. A twelve inch blade is a veritable light saber over a five inch laugher.
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Post by howler on Feb 8, 2018 7:11:50 GMT
Which puts us right back in the phone booth with the small knife. Or the frontier bar room with the large bowie. It's my understanding than many held them upside down when dueling, with clip point facing down. Holding it that way, even in a phone booth, you could quickly whip at the face (like granting a wish with a magic wand) and do nasty penetrating wounds with that tip, though the dude your fighting could grab your hand while he is doing sewing style stabs to your belly from underneath...so don't get in knife fights while in phone booths.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Feb 8, 2018 9:26:21 GMT
So we've learned: Never bring a phone booth to a knife fight!
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Post by randomnobody on Feb 8, 2018 10:08:06 GMT
Geez, this is what I get for going to bed. Too much to address, but let me be quick with just these one: Can you name all these smaller blades used in actual combat and not something pressed into it as an improvised weapon or more of a utility tool pressed into it? I understand the different cross-sections and geometry and all that(like Rondel daggers,etc.) but even then those combat daggers were still relatively large, no? The typical rondel had a blade in the double digits. The typical Jambiya and tanto as well. Well, no, I can't name them all because I don't know all their names. I could argue I've never seen a karambit over 6-7", not counting the curve, or for that matter I've never seen a foot-long tanto. Once you get there they start calling them ko-wakizashi, unless you're Cold Steel. Jambiya over a foot long? Average I've seen is 8-10". My own two Afghan choora daggers, distinctly fighting knives, represent both the typical at 7.5" and the very rare (in my experience) extremely large 13". Granted, the 13" variant still weighs less than half a pound, and these things we used in an icepick grip. Not really slashing knives, either, obviously preferring to stab. I don't think either of the medieval-style daggers in my previous photo are over 13" in blade, but over those I take the 9" blade navaja. Only because it fits neatly into my pocket, and doesn't get in the way as much as a 12"+ knife would. Staring down at distance across an open field, I'd rather have a handgun than a knife, but once that distance closes the size of your knife matters a lot less than who's holding it.
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Post by randomnobody on Feb 8, 2018 12:42:42 GMT
Oh yeah, I forgot to mention, that IS a lovely knife. Out of production? Pity, that.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Feb 8, 2018 13:18:10 GMT
How many remembers the CS Honeycomb dagger? This changes everything. Put knife on stick and you create spear/pole arm, which beats even long sword. My point, no pun, was not how to mount the bugger. I threw the Honeycomb Dagger out there for general information as it was on the same principle as KA-RAR's Spork. I only posted the photo to show what I did with mine. Actually the Honeycomb Dagger serves its intended purpose in most cases, but that excludes people like me that keep their hair, or what’s left of it, closely cropped. Reading from the comments on Midway’s ad it was well accepted.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2018 13:27:26 GMT
Double tip speed Hah. Interestingly enough, over 9" and your getting into that realm. Don't quote me on the EXACT length it doubles, as I don't want the wrath of mathematic sticklers. A twelve inch blade is a veritable light saber over a five inch laugher. Dream on mcDuff (endearingly) The larger, long and heavier object requires more effort to move. That is, for instance, how vehicle springs work. Bigger vehicle=bigger springs. The springs on the human anatomy require energy (power) to move levers and have their return. The human anatomy has virtually no energy return (springs). Bigger mass needs more energy to move. This may (for some) read as a negligible issue in your formula but keep overall mass and energy in mind when considering rotational speed. Let's move on to a wheel, no? Ok, call it a paddle wheel. A wheel with lots of fly swatters. Would you consider that a smaller wheel requires less force to spin the paddles/fly swatters? Considering any even amount of energy, a smaller amount of mass can be moved more easily=more speed. Going back to my first interruption in the tomahawk thread, you are expounding the virtue a longer lever equaling "twice the tip speed". My remark was "show me the math" and I still point to the unanswered values and factors. We are not just looking at perceived geometry where the tip is traveling twice as fast as half the radius in an arc of a circumfrence but need to consider energy and inertia as well. Can you curl 100 lbs as quickly as 50 lbs? Is an alloy tennis racket quicker than a wooden one? An aluminum softball bat vs a wooden one? We have to account for energy, mass and inertia. A kali stick can twirl and lever/swat quicker at half its length because of its mass. A longer bo staff is slower, and while its momentum of mass may well be much greater, it took more energy and time to reach the target. Give it up Tip speed is not what your argument should be. At a given speed, greater mass=greater momentum. Go with that if you want to. If the knife twice as long was twice the mass of the knife half the length, it takes more energy to move the that longer mass. Wheels on a vehicle. A compact sports car vs a crew cab pick-up. Which needs more energy to arrive at the destination first? Given equal engines, which can accelerate the fastest? A large propeller vs a small propeller. An equal rubber band for each, wound the same number of turns. Which propeller initially spins quicker? Not sure how many analogies might make sense for you to realize that a smaller knife moves more quickly. That leaves only distance making that longer knife a better light saber.
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Post by randomnobody on Feb 8, 2018 16:45:17 GMT
Never said they were prevalent and also said I don't know what some of them are called. Writing off the rest because I'm too busy to fuss over it now as basically, all my prior points still stand.
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Post by howler on Feb 8, 2018 20:59:32 GMT
So we've learned: Never bring a phone booth to a knife fight! Never use a phone booth as a knife unless your Superman or the Hulk.
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Post by howler on Feb 8, 2018 21:25:17 GMT
Hah. Interestingly enough, over 9" and your getting into that realm. Don't quote me on the EXACT length it doubles, as I don't want the wrath of mathematic sticklers. A twelve inch blade is a veritable light saber over a five inch laugher. Dream on mcDuff (endearingly) The larger, long and heavier object requires more effort to move. That is, for instance, how vehicle springs work. Bigger vehicle=bigger springs. The springs on the human anatomy require energy (power) to move levers and have their return. The human anatomy has virtually no energy return (springs). Bigger mass needs more energy to move. This may (for some) read as a negligible issue in your formula but keep overall mass and energy in mind when considering rotational speed. Let's move on to a wheel, no? Ok, call it a paddle wheel. A wheel with lots of fly swatters. Would you consider that a smaller wheel requires less force to spin the paddles/fly swatters? Considering any even amount of energy, a smaller amount of mass can be moved more easily=more speed. Going back to my first interruption in the tomahawk thread, you are expounding the virtue a longer lever equaling "twice the tip speed". My remark was "show me the math" and I still point to the unanswered values and factors. We are not just looking at perceived geometry where the tip is traveling twice as fast as half the radius in an arc of a circumfrence but need to consider energy and inertia as well. Can you curl 100 lbs as quickly as 50 lbs? Is an alloy tennis racket quicker than a wooden one? An aluminum softball bat vs a wooden one? We have to account for energy, mass and inertia. A kali stick can twirl and lever/swat quicker at half its length because of its mass. A longer bo staff is slower, and while its momentum of mass may well be much greater, it took more energy and time to reach the target. Give it up Tip speed is not what your argument should be. At a given speed, greater mass=greater momentum. Go with that if you want to. If the knife twice as long was twice the mass of the knife half the length, it takes more energy to move the that longer mass. Wheels on a vehicle. A compact sports car vs a crew cab pick-up. Which needs more energy to arrive at the destination first? Given equal engines, which can accelerate the fastest? A large propeller vs a small propeller. An equal rubber band for each, wound the same number of turns. Which propeller initially spins quicker? Not sure how many analogies might make sense for you to realize that a smaller knife moves more quickly. That leaves only distance making that longer knife a better light saber. Whatever the math and physics, the distance traveled by tip is vastly greater with minimal non comparable expenditure of energy. You stick out your arm with thumb up vertical and twist 90 degrees to horizontal noting time and distance thumb tip traveled. Don't take no time at all. Now you do same with a ruler in your hand giving twice the length to ruler tip as your thumb tip. Heck, is that MORE than twice the distance in relatively the same amount of time?
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Post by howler on Feb 8, 2018 21:34:19 GMT
Never said they were prevalent and also said I don't know what some of them are called. Writing off the rest because I'm too busy to fuss over it now as basically, all my prior points still stand. I think the basic point Nternal was making was blades going from primary importance to more utilitarian, portable tasks. No sweat carrying a light dagger (so you can carry more ammo, water, etc...in your pack). Even better, make it a one sided drop point so you can do more camp jobs than the double edged dagger, as so few need to pull a blade for offense/defense nowadays.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2018 21:49:18 GMT
"Whatever the math and physics, the distance traveled by tip is vastly greater with minimal non comparable expenditure of energy."
LOL
Let's look at thumbs and rulers
A large propeller vs a small propeller. An equal rubber band for each, wound the same number of turns. Which propeller initially spins quicker?
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Post by howler on Feb 8, 2018 22:49:53 GMT
"Whatever the math and physics, the distance traveled by tip is vastly greater with minimal non comparable expenditure of energy." LOL Let's look at thumbs and rulers A large propeller vs a small propeller. An equal rubber band for each, wound the same number of turns. Which propeller initially spins quicker? Well, being I don't have propellers and such in front of me, I'll just stick with the pencil, ruler, stick, whatever and stretch out my arms. Why would you choose an exponentially more difficult illustration model? Just stick out your arm and give my example a thumbs down (like a diseased Roman emperor condemning my though experiment to death). Then...WHAM...you'll get it...like everyone else on the forum except yourself.
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Post by randomnobody on Feb 8, 2018 22:59:09 GMT
This is all making me wish I had the equipment to actually record speed in small moving objects. I know it exists, I just don't have it.
I am inclined, however, to the idea that a sword or knife is a different animal than a lever or anything with a stationary fulcrum, and thus the behavior could be very different with regard to length vs speed. We don't really use knives or swords with a stationary arm, or one held fully outright at all times. There's a lot of moving going on that varies by specific weapon and style.
There's also the very valid point already brought up where the overall mass of an object certainly affects the rate at which said object accelerates. A knife twice as heavy may well require twice the effort to move, and thus likely won't see twice the speed, whereas a knife half the size could easily weigh half or less and certainly accelerate more readily and attain greater speed.
There's also the matter of how that movement happens. Holding the wrist in a stiff hammer grip and swinging a knife art arm's length probably doesn't accelerate a tip the same way a loose grip that snaps closed at the point of impact while the arm moves more like a whip than a bar.
Or maybe there's really no mathematical theory that can be applied to all weapons equally. I don't know, I just collect these things, carry a few of them, and seldom have occasion to use all but two or three.
I'm still curious if anybody's ever put an accelerometer on a sword blade and swung it different ways to see how the speed changed...
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2018 23:53:44 GMT
"Whatever the math and physics, the distance traveled by tip is vastly greater with minimal non comparable expenditure of energy." LOL Let's look at thumbs and rulers A large propeller vs a small propeller. An equal rubber band for each, wound the same number of turns. Which propeller initially spins quicker? Well, being I don't have propellers and such in front of me, I'll just stick with the pencil, ruler, stick, whatever and stretch out my arms. Why would you choose an exponentially more difficult illustration model? Just stick out your arm and give my example a thumbs down (like a diseased Roman emperor condemning my though experiment to death). Then...WHAM...you'll get it...like everyone else on the forum except yourself. I condemned your thought experiment in a separate thread but you still don't seem to get it. Now you are fly swatting the guy next to you, or your own arm. Nonetheless, you had to impart energy to do so. When Keating offers a disarm buy rolling around the opponents arm, presenting his edge to the other's arm, he is doing so with the base of a blade. That is the only, lateral/horizontal view you are sharing with your current presentation. In a forward and linear path to your opponent with your flyswatter, you are really only offering a jab that might be easily avoided. Since the distance and time was lost as you rooster/reset your flyswatter, the shorter blade has actually entered your measure because it didn't have to travel as far while its point was directed at you. You rooster/reset while I move forward. You let fly again and I still have my distance/reach when I retreat to move out of your jab. I am not arguing the geometry. nor momentum, velocity and mass of your claymore; simply that a shorter and lighter blade is quicker. Your only advantage is the initial reach and perhaps keeping that distance. Yes, a shorter blade must then accelerate a double measure to reach the same distance. That all goes back to energy expended . Pretty simple to me. Even if I'm living in my own private Idaho.
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Post by legacyofthesword on Feb 9, 2018 0:57:48 GMT
So the basic question being argued is this: are small knives better (because of speed) or are big knives better (because of reach).
Tomorrow I'm going to do a bit of sparring and see what I can find out. I'll try the "fencing style", in which you stay light on your feet and try to avoid getting hit. I'll also try the "brawling style/suicide style" where you to try to get in close and kill the other guy faster than he kills you.
I have absolutely zip knife fighting training, so this should simulate an untrained "street fight" decently.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2018 1:51:10 GMT
Do you read Silver's Paradoxes?
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Post by howler on Feb 9, 2018 2:07:36 GMT
So the basic question being argued is this: are small knives better (because of speed) or are big knives better (because of reach). Tomorrow I'm going to do a bit of sparring and see what I can find out. I'll try the "fencing style", in which you stay light on your feet and try to avoid getting hit. I'll also try the "brawling style/suicide style" where you to try to get in close and kill the other guy faster than he kills you. I have absolutely zip knife fighting training, so this should simulate an untrained "street fight" decently. Longer knives are both faster and longer.
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Post by howler on Feb 9, 2018 2:10:02 GMT
This is all making me wish I had the equipment to actually record speed in small moving objects. I know it exists, I just don't have it. I am inclined, however, to the idea that a sword or knife is a different animal than a lever or anything with a stationary fulcrum, and thus the behavior could be very different with regard to length vs speed. We don't really use knives or swords with a stationary arm, or one held fully outright at all times. There's a lot of moving going on that varies by specific weapon and style. There's also the very valid point already brought up where the overall mass of an object certainly affects the rate at which said object accelerates. A knife twice as heavy may well require twice the effort to move, and thus likely won't see twice the speed, whereas a knife half the size could easily weigh half or less and certainly accelerate more readily and attain greater speed. There's also the matter of how that movement happens. Holding the wrist in a stiff hammer grip and swinging a knife art arm's length probably doesn't accelerate a tip the same way a loose grip that snaps closed at the point of impact while the arm moves more like a whip than a bar. Or maybe there's really no mathematical theory that can be applied to all weapons equally. I don't know, I just collect these things, carry a few of them, and seldom have occasion to use all but two or three. I'm still curious if anybody's ever put an accelerometer on a sword blade and swung it different ways to see how the speed changed... Remember, the weight on fighting knives is at the guard (meaning no real penalty), so the tip speed of a blade with a significant length advantage is WAAAAAAAY faster. Reach becomes doubly deadly because it increases speed (as well as damage on impact).
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